Getting Serious And Charging Appropriately

[MonElite]

There are plenty of industries similar to photography, hairdressing as an example. You dont need a salon to be able to cut hair and charge for it. And there isnt a huge outlay in anything to get you going.

Massage is another, personal training, dog training, consultancy of any sort, interior design, pool or fish pond maintenance I could go on and on.

And you dont need to study for most of those for ages, people with some talent in a certain area will pick up on the skill in no time and be VERY good at it, from nothing.

I cant see how in photography low prices differ to any of the industries I mentioned above and how it cheapens the industry as a whole. Or are you saying that this applies to any industry?

I get a hairdresser to come to my house to colour and cut my hair. And he isnt cheap, I save very little comparying to going to a salon, and I have a bathroom to clean up afterwards!

Why do I do it? - because I like he does the hair. He chooses the colours I like and cuts hair very well.

I get few girls around, we drink champagne and have our hair done.

He could charge half of what he charges, it would even be better, and there are people out there that do that. Does it cheapen the industry? Dont think so, there are PLENTY of people going to Tony and Guy salons to pay over $300 for a haircut.

Photography is NOT a service industry, it is far more than that - in just taking the photo, it is more than just pressing a button, there is learning how to

............blah blah blah

What is it then? if its not a service? And any other service doesnt require learning of the skills, purchasing things to do the busienss with?

My point is that photography ISNT different to any other industry and some people charging low prices happens everywhere. Its up to the consumer to decide what they want and what they are willing to pay for what quality service/product.

As consumers people need to do their research and make decision on what they want and what they are prepared to pay. As busienss owners people need to make decisions as what is their target market, what they want to chage and how they going to market themselves. And researching competition is certainly one aspect of it. But that doesnt mean that what one does other should do as well.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

this happens in every industry, part and parcel of running a business.

prices are set by the market and we can only charge what the market will bear.

price fixing is a big no no so businesses need to be very careful about this. however, it is only really a problem if there are a small number of suppliers who price fix, ie cardboard box manufacturers.

i dont see how photography is any different from other businesses. i have owned and run my own business profitably for 15 years and i work in a very competative market space

Not all, but most businesses are specialist. Not everyone can pick up a XYZ and suddenly start charging within that industry.

Photography is one of the few businesses where you literally only need a minor amount of money to buy the equipment and you could start charging.

Most other businesses/industries require a bigger amount of initial investment or specialist skills.

yes i agree that people can hang out a shingle with few dollars in photography (and as mon said, other industries).

i have a friend who is a professional photographer so i am on side i think the business skills are lacking not only in photography but in lots of small businesses.

i have worked with businesses (large capital outlay) whose managers/owners dont realise that by providing x they are actually loosing money. they didnt know how much it cost them to provide the x to their customers. how on earth were they going to make any profit?

i think education is also important. do the peak bodies assist by educating the public and providing pamphlets to explain why their members charge more than the flybynighters?

Edited October 14, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[Guest Tess32]

I would disagree there that it's similar to those industries. I don't think you can compare the influx of very inexperienced people doing photography to the amount of people who would seriously start a hairdressing, massage business etc.

I don't know anyone who would randomly begin cutting hair but I do know people who buy a DSLR and go into business straight away.

Only some types of photography are a 'service' and those are the types that are commissioned. Selling only prints or fine art photography is not a service.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Tess32

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Tess the trouble is if you make photography and photographers too special then people wont learn from other businesses that have survived.

there are business rules and processes that work for small businesses to make a profit, these rules apply to every business whether they take photos or they sell gizmos.

[MonElite]

I don't know anyone who would randomly begin cutting hair but I do know people who buy a DSLR and go into business straight away.

You dont I do.

And I know about 3 that picked up a large make up case and became make up artist "overnight" doing expensive wedding make ups.

How would a make up artist differ to a photographer in that regard? If printing of pics isnt the main thing...

I think for the purpose of the discussion in this thread Id say - those that are professionals should look at what they do and worry about their work not about others. If you are good and have good business skills then you will suceed regardless of competition.

And perhaps in improving photo skills a way to suceed would be to improve business skills.

Im sure that most have heard of the people that are able to sell ice to Eskimos. is their ice better? probably not! butt they have the skills to sell it.

Edited October 14, 2010 by MonElite

[kja]

For those who are really interested in professional photography pricing etc check out Zack's blog. He's a pretty damned cluey guy.

[Ashanali]

Mon, growing up in hairdressing salons and working closely with Australia's largest massage therapy clinic (they are across the road from our studio and we work with them often), I'll have to disagree on those two fronts. Hairdressing requires a four year apprenticeship, and massage therapy doesn't require an official qualification BUT on all accounts from the very many therapists I deal with and talk to, it is difficult for people to work in that industry without it. Already there is an investment in both those careers that people have to put in before they even start. Photography doesn't require any sort of official qualification, people can pick up a camera cheap with a kit lens, whack up a website and call themselves professional. It's what they do after that that makes all the difference.

As I said, there will always be a market for cheaper photographers and I don't mind that they are fly by night businesses because the more of them that go bankrupt and the more people complain about them, the better our business looks in comparison. However the people that damage the market (and it IS happening in this industry) are the talented people who aren't charging appropriately for their TALENT.

BTW We aren't just a service industry because we also supply products and the quality of our products needs to stand the test of time probably more than any other industry. Afterall, what's the first thing you grab in a fire (after living and breathing members of your house are accounted for)? What's the one thing that's handed down to your kids?

Can't hand down a massage, a consultation, dog training or a hairstyle... but you can sure as hell pass on precious memories to your family members.

As it is, the AIPP are working for accreditation for photographers along the lines of CPA's. The new accreditation scheme is being teamed with more mainstream promotion of the industry to the general public. It's going to be slow going but hopefully with more awareness there will be more people in the industry doing the right thing and less cowboys.

[Ashanali]

For those who are really interested in professional photography pricing etc check out Zack's blog. He's a pretty damned cluey guy.

That was the one I was looking for!!! Thanks for posting that

[MonElite]

I dont think my hairdressed has any quals.

Neither does one of my best friends that does make up. And she charges A LOT.

I just simply can not see any significant difference between photography and few other industries and I cant see how some people charging less are cheapening the industry as a whole.

In a business there is competition, people need to learn how to deal with it.

Now I might put a twist onto it. I think photographers want to view themselves more as artists then service providers and therefore think that prices for their art should stay high? Win couple of awards and all of a sudden one becomes expensive? If thats the case good on them! And if thats the case use it as a marketing tool! Makes you more pro. And if you are a tip top pro then why would you bother worrying with the amateurs?

I can compare it to dog breeding since we are on a dog forum.

One will breed their extensivelly health tested grand champion bitch to an imported dog with lots of titles and charge money for their effort and to recoup the cost they had in 4 digit number price, another will breed two dogs and give them away for $100 each.

Does the GR CH breeder worry about the backayrd breeder next door as a competitor? not really. Does it cheapen the shows and the championships? I dont think so. Some people will only buy a pedigree dog, some are happy with something looking like some sort of a breed.

Different target markets.

[Linda K]

bet your hairdresser has not spent $20000 setting up with equipment though.

[kja]

bet your hairdresser has not spent $20000 setting up with equipment though.

The people with cameras that are the targets here aren't either, mostly, I'd bet.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

bet your hairdresser has not spent $20000 setting up with equipment though.

The people with cameras that are the targets here aren't either, mostly, I'd bet.

yes when i raised an issue in this thread i was told it was cheap to set up as a photographer, now i am confused?

[MonElite]

Most likely not.

So are you now saying that all those unprofessional photographers undercutting every pro one went and spend 20K on the equipment but cant take pics yet charge money for them?

I dont think so...

What is your point?

[MonElite]

snap jaxx and kja

[Guest Tess32]

bet your hairdresser has not spent $20000 setting up with equipment though.

The people with cameras that are the targets here aren't either, mostly, I'd bet.

Yep agree. Heck, I couldn't afford 20k worth of gear.

[MonElite]

Linda K - are you a pro?

Is this your website? http://timelessimagesbylindak.squarespace.com/

[MolassesLass]

If you feel you cant or shouldn't be charging the right fee then think seriously about your product you are offering and should you be offering it?

Sorry but I hope everyone ignores this! The "shoot and burn brigade" are the only ones I buy from. I want photographs not artworks - so no one is stealing my patronage from your business, if the hobbyists aren't around then I just won't buy anything.

IME, it's not the hobbyists or cheap businesses that de-value artwork photography. It's the ease of creating nice photos (to the untrained eye) with the technology in today's cameras and editing software. Why would you see great value in something that you feel you can do yourself?

[Linda K]

My point is that the idea that it is cheap to set up as a legitimate business is not true, if you read the point on page 1 of this topic (as below)

Cost of actual print

Fuel to get to and from the shoot

Fuel to get to and from the lab OR postage

Phone calls

Insurance (if you have a business, you NEED insurance - this is not something you should avoid as consequences for not having it can be very serious.)

Website hosting

Internet hosting

electricity

Camera gear

Computer

Programs/upgrades

bookkeeping

accounting

advertising

savings

superannuation

Tax

PAY FOR YOUR TIME AND SKILL

all of that is obtained for next to nothing - heck just my public liability and equipment insurance is $1000 a year, let alone those other costs, not to mention having backup to my gear, as it is not just having 1 camera, you need a backup in case 1 fails in the middle of a shoot.

Would be interesting for a start to see how many people doing this as a hobby were taking out insurance, claiming the income on their tax returns etc

Heck, I am more than happy to sit back and let others burn themselves out on getting nothing for their efforts, they will soon see that there is a reason that businesses that have been around for awhile charge a higher price for the same things. Was merely helping offer a bit of help so they do not kill themselves working it out first, nothing to do with trying to keep it as a protected industry or to price fix - it is nothing of the sort, just a bit of wisdom to stop the inevitable for people doing so much work for so little - I know of quite a few friends who nearly had marriage breakdowns before they realised the cheap prices were killing them, and they were doing so much work for less then $2 an hour.

[Linda K]

Linda K - are you a pro?

Is this your website? http://timelessimagesbylindak.squarespace.com/

Not sure what that has to do with anything, but no that is not my site.

& yes I am a professional photographer, operating under Linda Kitson Pawtraits

[Guest Tess32]

Like I said before, different types of photography within photography. Not everyone needs backup gear, not everyone needs a huge amount of gear in the first place. There are lots of different levels - from full on studios etc to experienced hobbyists.