Getting Serious And Charging Appropriately

[kja]

Ash - not sure if that was directed at me re: the competition entries, if so, I'll clarify. Often people consider photographers professional because said photographer enters and presumably places/wins in a competition or because he/she belongs to an affiliation (tho the customer may have no clue what said association is about really - it just sounds good!) and/or because the tog has been "published" somewhere.

I also know quite a few pros who consider those pros who do not belong to such and such organization and/or who do not enter to be inferior or not really pros. I've heard the same thing about pros who don't have a studio or storefront space, don't shoot with big lighting rigs, who don't do x, y or z.

None of these are my position - I was, perhaps too vaguely, addressing some things that were brought up earlier as to what makes a pro and how I don't fit. Of course, it may all be moot, as perhaps others don't view me as a pro. And that's just fine, too I try not to take it personally

rubiton - Ash has it in one. Copyright protection should be in any competition one considers and virtually every pro believes that contests that require copyright are in very bad form and to be avoided. There are several groups working tirelessly to make contest organizers see that and amend the contests accordingly. The underwater photography world is crazy bad for it, but happily pros and amateurs alike are spreading the word and actively working to make changes.

There are many competitions that do not require copyright or other ridiculous terms and they are a great thing for those who enjoy them.

[rubiton]

Justice Shades thats a hard question and pretty much a judgement call. I was taking photos for 12 years or so before I was asked to take photos at events for magazines. a few months after that I use to bring shots from the previous comps with me for a while til a pony club stole a heap of prints and pretty much destroyed the albums the photos had been in. About a year after a started taking pic at events I started posting proofs out - looking back now they were not all that flash however they were OK and SLRs were not all that common. Price always covered the print, replacement of the print if it went missing and a little extra - prices went up every couple of years and I havent changed them for a few years now.

These days a lot of keen kids (and perhaps some adults) get a DSLR realise even on auto they take pretty good photos and set up a free website and call themselves a photographer then realise its all too hard and disappear but each one appearing charging nothing not even the replacement cost of their prints undercuts those who have been around for years and thats what gets frustrating - photographers who give the appearance of trying to have a business and be a pro who cannot even work their camera off auto settings.

When learning someone should not be offering themselves as a business they should be doing just that learning and once they are confident they can get the best out of their camera, are prepared to stick it out in a situation where taking photos may not be easy or fun on a particular day and know how to produce a variety of results (and by then they should have a 'portfolio' of images) then and only then should they be offering their services as a 'photographer'.

[Ashanali]

If you're serious, find a mentor whose work you respect and ask them to give you an honest critique.

Quite honestly, newbie photographers get snapped up by established photographers in a heartbeat if the work they show is good. If you have absolutely nobody willing to even give you an opinion you are either extremely unlucky with who you approach OR you haven't shown the best images in your folio OR maybe you really do need to evaluate your skill level objectively (as much as possible).

Reveluating your skill level doesn't mean you're bad either. It could be like the person blacklab mentioned. I have seen their work and it's quite average but the photographer honestly believes they are at the top of their game. Photographer may simply need a slap back to reality and to look at their own work through fresh eyes and look at what they can adjust or refine to take them to the next level.

[Ashanali]

JS- I think I love you.

I can't type a long response because I'm on my iPhone at the moment, but your post is exactly what I need to show a certain group of people. I'll explain more later and hopefully you'll give me permission to use it.

[rubiton]

I think you cant rely on other people to judge your photos I think you need to make the call yourself.

I use to see photos in magazines and over time I learnt how to take photos like that. I remember once I was involved with the young member committee they were trying to get off the ground in Canberra at the races. A lady whose family ran a very famous local stud was the raceclub person involved but they wanted a group of younger members to form a committee. So there is 10 of us around the table and all the other young people were there from the social angle (when asked what our interest in racing was and what goals we had - a getting to know you discussion) and all agreed with each other gets to my turn and I say I take photos etc and I want to take photos like the one of the wall (it was one of those commercial photo prints of a champion racehorse of the time) - basically the social set were all stifling laughter but Phillippa she took what I said seriously. That lady and I are probably the only ones still involved in the industry these days (I went to a few of the gatherings but final straw was lunch at the races where you paid $3 for a cup of soft drink and they actually opened a can and put it to the side while they handed you the glass and lunch went on without anyone noticing the races were even on - I think the social side kind of died away from then and the young members was in price and name only).

However the story goes I saw the type of racing shots I wanted to take eventually and while it may have taken years after that I now take photos like that and know how to take them (and have the right gear) - likewise I opened an equestrian magazine from the 80s and saw photos that look just like mine of jumping so clearly thats what stuck in my mind as a good photo and thats the type of angle etc that I worked towards for what I believed was a 'good photo'. However you never stop learning or trying to improve your photos and knowing what you want to achieve and comparing your work to that is the only way to truly judge yourself.

[kja]

Another approach is just to put on the big girl panties and get out there and do it. Forget the nay-sayers, ignore the fear, turn the doubts into energy learning your craft, shoot, read, view, learn, self-critique, reach out to other togs, try new things, work hard, rinse, repeat.

Mentors are wonderful but they aren't available to everyone and that type of relationship doesn't suit everyone at every point in their development.

It's perfectly do-able to just do it.

As with everything, there are pluses and minuses for doing it this way (or with a mentor, or with going to school for a degree etc) - only you can determine what you are comfortable with and what you can make work. And remember, it's not the end of the world if one stumbles a bit - you CAN change horses in mid-stream And you can mix & match!

I've found that camera ... competitions are useless for getting an accurate assessment of your work standard because it's so subjective, it depends on how you compare to what else is shown on the night and some judges have ridiculously narrow ideas of what is good photography

I agree and I removed "club" coz it's part and parcel of every single competition.

[Guest Tess32]

I think you cant rely on other people to judge your photos I think you need to make the call yourself.

But that is part of the problem, people honestly can't judge their own work sometimes. Most of the amateur photographers that have been complained about honestly believe they are putting out good work, as do their clients.

People who suddenly get a DSLR and are besotted by the fact the background is blurred aren't really in a position to judge their own skill level. Even now I look at some of my older photos and wonder WTF I was thinking.

[kja]

But that is part of the problem,

What exactly is the actual problem?

[Ashanali]

But that is part of the problem,

What exactly is the actual problem?

People putting themselves out there without appropriate skill, business knowledge etc (before they are well and truly ready).

ETA: How many facebook pages do you stumble over where people are applauding images that shouldn't even see the light of day? Sure, photography is subjective but sometimes people just simply are consistently bad and they honestly don't see it.

Edited October 16, 2010 by Ashanali

[kja]

Ah, ok, that's what I thought was the problem.

But I'm just not sure it's a real problem. Annoying, yes. Frustrating, maybe. But if the tog is happy and the people he/she is serving are happy - what exactly is the problem? I'm pretty sure that people at the top of the pile aren't losing business to these people - and if they are, then they seriously need to rethink their business plan. People like me are probably losing business to this sort of thing, but again, if that's the case and it worries me, then I need to rethink my approach. In my case there is another local shooter who charges far far far less than I do. No skin off my nose - I don't want to work for nothing and I set my sights on those clients who can see or learn the difference. I'll bet the other shooter shoots more than I do - I'll bet I spend far less hours for the same (or more) income. That's my choice.

Would it be nice to have everyone claiming to be a pro really be a pro? Maybe again. Since no one seems to be able to pin down a definition, this might be tough. Since I'm not a huge fan of over-regulation, I see this as a very thin line to walk.

Yes, seeing bad photography being applauded is frustrating and annoying to me. So is seeing people charge too much for their output or too little for their output - but I can't run another man's business.

There is a definite decline in the majority of photos shown thanks to such easy access to very nice equipment, learning resources and simply being able to disseminate one's photos to such a broad audience so quickly - one can always find an audience to applaud, whether there is truly merit or not. On the other hand, I think it makes a huge push in the other direction, too - many are getting far better far faster than before because they want to excel and see other images that are better than what one is shooting at the moment.

I think I am missing the actual problem problem itself.

Edited October 16, 2010 by kja

[Ashanali]

Ah, ok, that's what I thought was the problem.

But I'm just not sure it's a real problem. Annoying, yes. Frustrating, maybe. But if the tog is happy and the people he/she is serving are happy - what exactly is the problem? I'm pretty sure that people at the top of the pile aren't losing business to these people - and if they are, then they seriously need to rethink their business plan. People like me are probably losing business to this sort of thing, but again, if that's the case and it worries me, then I need to rethink my approach. In my case there is another local shooter who charges far far far less than I do. No skin off my nose - I don't want to work for nothing and I set my sights on those clients who can see or learn the difference. I'll bet the other shooter shoots more than I do - I'll bet I spend far less hours for the same (or more) income. That's my choice.

Would it be nice to have everyone claiming to be a pro really be a pro? Maybe again. Since no one seems to be able to pin down a definition, this might be tough. Since I'm not a huge fan of over-regulation, I see this as a very thin line to walk.

Yes, seeing bad photography being applauded is frustrating and annoying to me. So is seeing people charge too much for their output or too little for their output - but I can't run another man's business.

There is a definite decline in the majority of photos shown thanks to such easy access to very nice equipment, learning resources and simply being able to disseminate one's photos to such a broad audience so quickly - one can always find an audience to applaud, whether there is truly merit or not. On the other hand, I think it makes a huge push in the other direction, too - many are getting far better far faster than before because they want to excel and see other images that are better than what one is shooting at the moment.

I think I am missing the actual problem problem itself.

No, we just go back to the start of the thread and play it all over again

[kja]

ROFL I'm sure there's a way to loop it somehow

[Ravyk]

I am sick to death of seeing photographers with great frontage/pretty advertising/snappy logos charging large prices for mediocre photography.

Me too!

I've read through the thread, and I see where both sides are coming from.

I also have to agree with what monelite has said and kja's point

But I'm just not sure it's a real problem. Annoying, yes. Frustrating, maybe. But if the tog is happy and the people he/she is serving are happy - what exactly is the problem?

To me there are heaps of levels in 'professional' photographer [in commas, as I am talking about anyone who charges for photos for arguments sake], just like there are levels of customers. It's the same in any type of business. The high level photographers are going to get their business from people who want excellent quality photos and service, and are happy to pay for it...they're not going to get the low end clients who want some nice photos for cheap...that's where the amateur photographers, who are happy to work for a lot less take up those people. And there are plenty in between.

Same in the industry Monelite works in. My partner and I are into the hobby she caters for. We are the kind of people who will fork out the money for the German imported, well made, has a guarantee, equipment...to an extent. We have our fair share of cheap stuff too [mainly due to our budget], but try to buy quality both in equipment and livestock. But a good friend of mine, she buys the cheapest stuff she can. Two ends of the scale...and two ends of a market catering for it.

At the beginning of the year my MIL got remarried [some of you might remember as I came in here asking advice]. I was asked to do the photos solely, which I declined [too stressful since we already had to drive 5 hours to get there and it was summer] but did take some photos anyway with a professional photographer doing her stuff [who IMO needed to learn some confidence and LOUD voicing]. My photos came out alright...I wasn't particularly pleased with them [i haven't seen the professional ones yet], but apparently my MIL likes the ones I took [on a Lumix point and shoot], BETTER than the ones she paid for. According to OH she was quite disappointed with the photos she saw from the professional shoot.

My point being, if people want quality...they'll search it out and be prepared to pay for it. But client's idea of quality is subjective, just like photographers is. You may think that photo A is the best photo in the lot, but the client may hate it but love photo D [which you think is total rubbish].

[Ashanali]

You missed the point Ravyk... there is definitely a place for cheap and crap photographers up to high-end photographers and all the places in between. The issue is when people with a decent level of work are grossly undercharging.

[RallyValley]

I have to comment here. When I first got my SLR like 12mths ago I took it to my cousins birthday party and from the close to 80 shots that day one or two were decent. All were shot on auto. When I gave the few shots to the mum of the child she was like "You should sell these, they are great" and luckily my dad was a bit of a SLR junkie back in the day and was like 'Don't be an idiot, these are crap shots'.

After close to 12 months auto shooting I have recently started shooting in manual mode and focusing manually. Needless to say my photographic standards have taken a dive but now I am actually learning to how take a good photo, not how to point my camera and press a button.

I don't think my work will ever be good enough to warrant commercial sale but at least now I am educated better then to be stupid enough to try.