Debarking In Sydney

[Erny]

Sounds to me as though you have really put in every effort to cover as many bases as you can and you should be applauded for that. I am not opposed to debarking surgery when behaviour modification strategies have been well trialled but have failed. If it were me, I think there would be two more that I would try (that are not on your list) before I went ahead with surgery ....

1. Husher. If you're not familiar with this, it is an elasticised muzzle that is meant to work on the premise that the dog can still open its mouth to bark, but the elasticity of the muzzle serves to make this more difficult, tires the jaw muscles, and so the dog gives up - after a while. These items are not my first port of call for barking issues and I don't have a lot of faith in their ultimate success, but given that their cost doesn't mean mortgaging your home, it might be worth a try - even at least so you can add it to your list of "tried its".
   
2. Electronic anti-bark collar. Now THIS IS something that I'd suggest has a good likelihood of success. It needs to be done with supervision and instruction (IMO) and I only ever recommend good quality collars with my preference being for the styles where you set the stimulation level (not where the collar sets it according to the amount of barks). BUT .... I think the use of these collars in NSW is illegal. Stupid laws.
   

And I guess because I'm me, I would probably go for a second opinion with another trainer/behaviourist - just to be certain that the opinion of the 1st was correct and that no stone was left unturned. As I say - that's me. I do this for my dog with Vets. I tend to get second opinions for myself as well, in matters of surgery.

IMO, I would consider surgically voice lowering/debarking before euthanasia. I would look carefully for a Vet who was well practised in the surgery and who had a known good reputation for the work.

I'm not familiar with debarking laws in your State - I only barely know the debarking laws here in Victoria where I live. But please do check thoroughly into the wording of your law/s in this regard before you proceed.

And if you ever move into Victoria ........ think TWICE AND THRICE before you ever "exhibit" your debarked dog.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Erny

[Silvawilow]

Then again, the OP did say they've tried medication to calm it as well. I dunno, I still don't like the concept but I do see where the OP is coming from.

Too bad you can't just get rid of your neighbours! Or move somewhere isolated...

I'd make sure any vet that was carrying the procedure really knew what the hell they were doing though... I can't think of any vet that I know who'd do it?

I feel sorry for the neighbours. I know the feeling as next door to us is a pair of dogs that bark at the sound of their own farts or the gentle breeze One's a dachy and the other a JRT. Wouldn't bother me as much if the owners actually made an effort to keep them quiet but they just let them bark and bark and bark and bark

Sounds like the OP is trying all the right things - good luck!

[asal]

yes i really do not understand the premise that a barking dog does so only because its depressed, lonely etc.

there are many that just LOVE to talk the the WORLD.

N BEING THE NEIGHBOUR to such a dog is pure misery.

im fortunate in being far from the madding crowd dont even have to think of it. but i know when one of mine decides to go on all night, its under chastisement how worse if its not yours keeping u awake.

know a friend in the city, all hers were done. neighbours just woulnt put up with even a yip.

why is it people think they cant bark once done? hers sure could. just didnt carry all over the block like before.??

[asal]

n from what i saw with one dog i know, debarking doesnt always stick either.

friend had a boy that would bark in his sleep. i looked after him for some weeks and couldnt wait to return him.

nxt time i saw him he had a husky bark.. yep he had been done, the neighbours had totally jacked up.

he moved and asked me to mind him till the new place was set up fences n all.

3 months later with much practice his dog had his bark back......loudn and clear.....sigh.

heard he rehomed him to a car yard as a guard dog.. LOL

out in the sticks middle of an industrial area no neighbours.. the perfect place for him

no one absolutely no one could ever say they entered that yard n didnt know a dog was in there.....

[mita]

Humans also have their pitch lowered...for career purposes. Being human, they can do it via speech therapy rather than surgery. Some women in careers like newsreading or politics have lowered their higher pitched voices this way, to make it easier on the ear. Margaret Thatcher had a famously high-pitched voice. One of her colleagues remarked that her voice could kill a passing sparrow. She had speech therapy to lower it.

Asal, you're right that debarking can 'undo' in some dogs. One of the two debarked tibbies I met, had had fuller pitch return & the op was performed again. So she was back to the sexy voice. I think the vets experienced with this kind of op, tell owners beforehand that this can occur sometimes.

Edited October 13, 2010 by mita

[Havasneeze]

Sounds to me as though you have really put in every effort to cover as many bases as you can and you should be applauded for that. I am not opposed to debarking surgery when behaviour modification strategies have been well trialled but have failed. If it were me, I think there would be two more that I would try (that are not on your list) before I went ahead with surgery ....

1. Husher. If you're not familiar with this, it is an elasticised muzzle that is meant to work on the premise that the dog can still open its mouth to bark, but the elasticity of the muzzle serves to make this more difficult, tires the jaw muscles, and so the dog gives up - after a while. These items are not my first port of call for barking issues and I don't have a lot of faith in their ultimate success, but given that their cost doesn't mean mortgaging your home, it might be worth a try - even at least so you can add it to your list of "tried its".
   
2. Electronic anti-bark collar. Now THIS IS something that I'd suggest has a good likelihood of success. It needs to be done with supervision and instruction (IMO) and I only ever recommend good quality collars with my preference being for the styles where you set the stimulation level (not where the collar sets it according to the amount of barks). BUT .... I think the use of these collars in NSW is illegal. Stupid laws.
   

And I guess because I'm me, I would probably go for a second opinion with another trainer/behaviourist - just to be certain that the opinion of the 1st was correct and that no stone was left unturned. As I say - that's me. I do this for my dog with Vets. I tend to get second opinions for myself as well, in matters of surgery.

IMO, I would consider surgically voice lowering/debarking before euthanasia. I would look carefully for a Vet who was well practised in the surgery and who had a known good reputation for the work.

I'm not familiar with debarking laws in your State - I only barely know the debarking laws here in Victoria where I live. But please do check thoroughly into the wording of your law/s in this regard before you proceed.

And if you ever move into Victoria ........ think TWICE AND THRICE before you ever "exhibit" your debarked dog.

Don't you think those collars are illegal for a reason?????

[Erny]

Don't you think those collars are illegal for a reason?????

..... Going to answer your question with a couple of questions to you, Havasneeze - save ME doing the hard yacka getting drawn into your one line comment :D.

1. Why don't you enlighten us as to the evidentiary reason for these collars being called in as illegal in some States?
   
2. And seeing as you believe that there must be presumably good reason for things to be made illegal, please reveal to me evidence upon which reason for Victorian Government made the use of PPCollars (aka Pinch or Prong Collars) illegal ???
   

My point being that Government decisions to ban do not equate to the tools being bad, wrong or cruel. And the Government well knows that fact.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Erny

[Havasneeze]

Don't you think those collars are illegal for a reason?????

..... Going to answer your question with a couple of questions to you, Havasneeze - save ME doing the hard yacka getting drawn into your one line comment :D :D.

1. Why don't you enlighten us as to the evidentiary reason for these collars being called in as illegal in some States?
   
2. And seeing as you believe that there must be presumably good reason for things to be made illegal, please reveal to me evidence upon which reason for Victorian Government made the use of PPCollars (aka Pinch or Prong Collars) illegal ???
   

My point being that Government decisions to ban do not equate to the tools being bad, wrong or cruel. And the Government well knows that fact.

Erny, I'm guessing that you think torture is a reasonable way of extracting information from people too? Sorry but I will not be drawn into a debate about this matter. I believe both the electronic collars and citronella spray collars are cruel. My dogs are my pets, I will not subject them to torture in any way, shape or form. I don't think you need to be a rocket scientist to see that perhaps, other people may think that way too!!!

As for PPCollars, these were not suggested by you in your original post and since I am not in Victoria (I don't hide the fact that I'm in NSW) I have no idea as to why the Victorian Government would ban them. I am however, wondering why you would ask me that or is it that you're leading onto another subject.... perhaps one that has been broached at the end of last year???

[Staranais]

Torture? Oh dear.

How on earth did you come to the conclusions that an e-collar stim equals torture? You do know what "torture" means, right?

Almost every dog I've seen waking up after a surgical operation was far more miserable looking than any dog I've seen being trained with an e collar. But it's OK to do one to your dog and "torture" to do the other? I don't get the logic there.

As an aside, it really makes me laugh when people join a conversation, then immediately say they're "won't be drawn into a debate" when people ask them to back up what they're saying. If you don't want to debate, why on earth would you jump into a conversation to make inflammatory, insulting comments in the first place? And yes, implying that a good few people here are "torturing" their dogs is both inflammatory and bloody insulting.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Staranais

[raz]

As an aside, it really makes me laugh when people join a conversation, then immediately say they're "won't be drawn into a debate" when people ask them to back up what they're saying. If you don't want to debate, why on earth would you jump into a conversation to make inflammatory, insulting comments in the first place? And yes, implying that a good few people here are "torturing" their dogs is both inflammatory and bloody insulting.

I totally agree. I didnt know whether to laugh or scratch my head.

How's the OP going - any update on whether you could get your paperwork?

[Aussienot]

Living with a compulsively barking dog is 'torture'. Luckily, my high horse died a few years ago, possibly harrassed to death by a barking dog.

[asal]

As an aside, it really makes me laugh when people join a conversation, then immediately say they're "won't be drawn into a debate" when people ask them to back up what they're saying. If you don't want to debate, why on earth would you jump into a conversation to make inflammatory, insulting comments in the first place? And yes, implying that a good few people here are "torturing" their dogs is both inflammatory and bloody insulting.

I totally agree. I didnt know whether to laugh or scratch my head.

How's the OP going - any update on whether you could get your paperwork?

always leaves me thinking thats their way of saying SHUT UP! dont u think?

i bought one of those collars recently, ummm does last year equate with recently . have a young dog that likes the sound of his own voice at the moment, the one that sprays "Dynavet" when he barks.

had a wonderful week he finally got the idea. soft wuff n all ok.

well he discovered it runs out didnt he? WUFF back with a vengence n im refilling it every 3 days, dont think its annoying him too much.

sooo out with the rolled newspaper and much angry posturing n he finally decided hysterical uman aint getting him pats so has the message, peace reigns again. n now have a second hand collar stashed in the cupboard

Edited October 13, 2010 by asal

[Erny]

Erny, I'm guessing that you think torture is a reasonable way of extracting information from people too? Sorry but I will not be drawn into a debate about this matter.

..... What shallow and revealing words you type, Havasneeze.

ETA: Huh? What "torture" do you think I'm applying to you to "extract information" from you??? I don't even think you have any information to extract . as to what you wrote that for.

As for PPCollars, these were not suggested by you in your original post and since I am not in Victoria (I don't hide the fact that I'm in NSW) I have no idea as to why the Victorian Government would ban them. I am however, wondering why you would ask me that or is it that you're leading onto another subject.... perhaps one that has been broached at the end of last year???

So - you THINK you can make a point of "there being a reason the Government banned them" when it suits you, but not when it doesn't?

You won't be drawn in to debate because you are unable to debate it, Havasneeze.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Erny

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Nuisance barking is probably the greatest driver of neighbour conflict in this and many other countries, so it is essential that it is addressed early.

Unfortunately, we have not evolved enough in our society and people still throw sedatives and poisons over their neighbours fences if there is a barking dog problem. We hear of this every month of the year, the rate doubles at the onset of spring when small animals are more prevalent.

People who have a dog that barks can suffer badly at the hands of impatient, upset or angry neighbours, and I guess some people who take no action deserve this, but a lot don't.

Think of it from the dog owners perspective, they don't want to use a Bark Deterrent on their beloved dog, but they are under pressure, sometimes from councils too, to have this problem silenced fast or lose their dog.

It is recommended to always seek help from a behaviourist to look at the root of the problem, and then advise neighbours you are taking action and welcome feedback.

Cruelty and Bark Deterrents

It is strange when I hear people say Anti Bark collars are cruel, I think we need to know their definition of what is cruel and what is not.

If it is cruel to inflict pain on an animal then how would any dog ever be vaccinated, micro chipped or desexed?

Many say that surgical De Barking is mutilation, I personally would advise De Barking as a very last course of action.

There is the risk of surgery.

There is a reasonable chance the barking will not stop

If it is successful you have totally silenced the dog and this silence also includes the removal of pain responses. Your dog could be stuck

in something screaming but you of course you cant hear.

I have seen many dogs report to biting after debarking.

But I would advise Debarking long before euthanasia.

There are certain laws governing the use of some devices, but these laws aren't created by anyone who owns a barking dog or has to cure one, does this mean though that because they are illegal they are bad?

If so, why then is euthanizing a dog 100% legal in every state of Australia?

[raz]

I have seen many dogs report to biting after debarking.

Really? Why is that, Steve? ie what's the dog psychology behind it?

[asal]

K9: Nuisance barking is probably the greatest driver of neighbour conflict in this and many other countries, so it is essential that it is addressed early.

Unfortunately, we have not evolved enough in our society and people still throw sedatives and poisons over their neighbours fences if there is a barking dog problem. We hear of this every month of the year, the rate doubles at the onset of spring when small animals are more prevalent.

People who have a dog that barks can suffer badly at the hands of impatient, upset or angry neighbours, and I guess some people who take no action deserve this, but a lot don't.

Think of it from the dog owners perspective, they don't want to use a Bark Deterrent on their beloved dog, but they are under pressure, sometimes from councils too, to have this problem silenced fast or lose their dog.

It is recommended to always seek help from a behaviourist to look at the root of the problem, and then advise neighbours you are taking action and welcome feedback.

Cruelty and Bark Deterrents

It is strange when I hear people say Anti Bark collars are cruel, I think we need to know their definition of what is cruel and what is not.

If it is cruel to inflict pain on an animal then how would any dog ever be vaccinated, micro chipped or desexed?

Many say that surgical De Barking is mutilation, I personally would advise De Barking as a very last course of action.

There is the risk of surgery.

There is a reasonable chance the barking will not stop

If it is successful you have totally silenced the dog and this silence also includes the removal of pain responses. Your dog could be stuck

in something screaming but you of course you cant hear.

I have seen many dogs report to biting after debarking.

But I would advise Debarking long before euthanasia.

There are certain laws governing the use of some devices, but these laws aren't created by anyone who owns a barking dog or has to cure one, does this mean though that because they are illegal they are bad?

If so, why then is euthanizing a dog 100% legal in every state of Australia?

surely you are joking?

as i said earlier i knew a lady every one of her dogs were debarked and there were some 20 of them..

no how no way could they bark for help or yelp and not be heard.

debarking DOES NOT SILENCE THE DOG FOR goodness sake.

it lowers the pitch so it cant carry for miles . full stop.

it certainly can be heard by the owner... well unless its out in the country and hundreds of yards from them.

i have one of her dogs now and i can hear him 80 feet from me n how many suburban yards are much bigger than that nowdays? most even less

what a crock of misinformation that seems to me from what i have seen and heard over 30 years with friends debarked dogs, anyway

n the ones she had that bit, bit before they were done, some have attitude, others dont

Edited October 14, 2010 by asal

[Steve K9Pro]

I have seen many dogs report to biting after debarking.

Really? Why is that, Steve? ie what's the dog psychology behind it?

K9: The availability of the dog giving warning sounds (growling, whinning, barking) has been removed, so biting is all that is left (is the main theory).

[raz]

K9: The availability of the dog giving warning sounds (growling, whinning, barking) has been removed, so biting is all that is left (is the main theory).

Ahh rightyo. Thanks for that. Makes sense.

[asal]

I have seen many dogs report to biting after debarking.

Really? Why is that, Steve? ie what's the dog psychology behind it?

K9: The availability of the dog giving warning sounds (growling, whinning, barking) has been removed, so biting is all that is left (is the main theory).

just because the growl is soft doesnt make it any less a warning. whoever ignorned the warning more fool them.

cant recall a dog that didnt add lips curling, teeth showing, theres a lot of body language going on before the bite... whose deaf and blind??? not the dog i think

Edited October 14, 2010 by asal

[Moselle]

As an aside, it really makes me laugh when people join a conversation, then immediately say they're "won't be drawn into a debate" when people ask them to back up what they're saying. If you don't want to debate, why on earth would you jump into a conversation to make inflammatory, insulting comments in the first place? And yes, implying that a good few people here are "torturing" their dogs is both inflammatory and bloody insulting.

I totally agree. I didnt know whether to laugh or scratch my head.

How's the OP going - any update on whether you could get your paperwork?

always leaves me thinking thats their way of saying SHUT UP! dont u think?

i bought one of those collars recently, ummm does last year equate with recently . have a young dog that likes the sound of his own voice at the moment, the one that sprays "Dynavet" when he barks.

had a wonderful week he finally got the idea. soft wuff n all ok.

well he discovered it runs out didnt he? WUFF back with a vengence n im refilling it every 3 days, dont think its annoying him too much.

sooo out with the rolled newspaper and much angry posturing n he finally decided hysterical uman aint getting him pats so has the message, peace reigns again. n now have a second hand collar stashed in the cupboard

MMM, it is a never ending quest to replace the spray (which is not cheap) and the batteries! Been there, done that; some dogs just dont give a flying flute about the spray at all. Next was the shock collar and even that is proving a battle. My mind is firmly made up to have her debarked, it's a case of finding a vet that will do it and the time to organize it and take her to such a vet. This is one dog that barks at a fly farting.....