Debarking In Sydney

[poodlefan]

Oh, and for anyone who was actually interested in knowing - puppy mills generally use a variety of methods to de-bark; most common are cutting or "shanking" the vocal cords (without anaesthetic, usually with a knife or screwdriver), heavy blows to the throat, or by ramming a metal pipe down the dog's throat.

What puppy mills choose to do and what the OP is thinking of doing are hardly in the same league TW.

We're talking about surgical debarking by a qualifed vet, not a barbaric job by some some redneck animal abuser. If your objection to the practice is based on the latter practice then perhaps you'd like to review that objection IN THIS CASE based on the fact that:

* this is not the OP's first line of management for the issue. Less extreme forms of noise control have been tried and failed.

* she is not a puppy farmer

* the procedure, if conducted, would be done under anaesthetic by a qualifed professional

* it sure as hell beats a bait.

Sweeping generalisations are not more palatable to some folk here than rudeness.

Edited October 14, 2010 by poodlefan

[The Teacup Warrior]

I'm aware they were thinking of a properly done de-barking. If you bothered to look at my previous posts, I mentioned not knowing a vet who would conduct the procedure but hoping that they would thoroughly check out one who knew what they were doing.

At no point did I imply that the OP was a puppy-miller. My inclusion of puppy-mill de-barking methods was in response to a query from another poster on this thread.

Not sure where you're getting the "sweeping generalisation" thing from, I'm afraid.

[The Teacup Warrior]

At the risk of repeating myself, my objection to de-barking is: at what point do we draw the line at modifying an animal's behaviour and body for the sake of human convenience?

There are plenty of people who annoy me - I consider the sound of their voice a nuisance. I have bogan neighbours behind me who have screaming arguments at 2am in the morning, frequently. I don't think I have the right to silence them though. I roll over and put a pillow over my head.

[aussielover]

Oh, and for anyone who was actually interested in knowing - puppy mills generally use a variety of methods to de-bark; most common are cutting or "shanking" the vocal cords (without anaesthetic, usually with a knife or screwdriver), heavy blows to the throat, or by ramming a metal pipe down the dog's throat.

I'm not "hammering" anyone. I simply wonder at what point do we draw the line at modifying an animal's behaviour and body for the sake of human convenience? I live right next to two barking dogs, and I've never felt the need to whine about the noise - earplugs, turn up the stereo, get out of the house and do something else. Mind you, after being at the shelter, I barely even notice it when a dog barks anymore, I kind of just tune it out. I'm not a big fan of complainers, particularly if they're neighbours. My opinion is that if someone has the time to complain, they've got time to do something useful - like help fix the problem.

Unfortunately, in this day and age people live in close proximity to one another. Some noise pollution as a result of that is inevitable. I don't understand why people get so worked up over a little noise (and this is coming from someone who has a neighbour who regularly has loud, obnoxious parties). People today just seem to have no tolerance for anything that they perceive to inconvenience them in the slightest way. Is it really that big a deal? Can't we all just get along for god's sake??? I mean, with all the war, genocide, rape, ethnic cleansing and generally horrible sh*t in the world, people would rather focus on petty carp like whether their neighbour's dog barks too much.

I despair for the human race sometimes, I really do.

I take it you don't desex your dogs then?

Most people on here agree debarking should only be used as an absolute last resort. Do you believe the dog is better off dead?

Have you lived in the vicinity of a problem barker? Do you think people should just "deal with it"- being a dogs that barks a good 8 hrs (at least) of the day and possibly night?

Do you think people in surburbia should not own dogs?

interested to hear your views...

Edited October 14, 2010 by aussielover

[poodlefan]

I'm aware they were thinking of a properly done de-barking. If you bothered to look at my previous posts, I mentioned not knowing a vet who would conduct the procedure but hoping that they would thoroughly check out one who knew what they were doing.

At no point did I imply that the OP was a puppy-miller. My inclusion of puppy-mill de-barking methods was in response to a query from another poster on this thread.

Not sure where you're getting the "sweeping generalisation" thing from, I'm afraid.

Before posting your next response, I suggest you review it in the light of your earlier comment.

I don't understand why some people here act so rudely towards others. It's pretty off-putting for newcomers to the board, to be honest.

I "bothered" for your information to read the entire thread. Your first post in it said:

Call me old-school but I don't like the notion of de-barking (yeah, I know, I know... being put down for barking isn't fair to the dog either). Maybe I just have too many negative associations with it because of the de-barking that's done on a lot of dogs in puppy mills

So in other words, you've generalised that debarking is bad because of your "negative associations" with puppy farming. I say again, the OP is not a puppy farmer so your generalisation isn't relevant here.

I don't recall anyone asking for a graphic description of backyard debarking but am prepared to concede it may have happened. While we're all about "feelings" why don't you consider how such graphic (and irrelevant) descriptions weigh on the feelings of the OP who clearly is weighing up her decision and isn't considering this option lightly.

At the risk of repeating myself, my objection to de-barking is: at what point do we draw the line at modifying an animal's behaviour and body for the sake of human convenience?

The answer given by many in this thread is one I agree with. If other methods of management have been tried and failed, then surgical option to me is preferable to constant aversives via a electronic collar for a perfectly natural behaviour, to surrender to a pound, to euthanasia or to an irate neighbour harming the dog. That might be summed up as "when its in the best interests of the dog".

Are you anti-desexing?

Edited October 14, 2010 by poodlefan

[The Teacup Warrior]

Of course I desex. Desexing has nothing to do with human convenience, and everything to do with preventing the euthanasia of homeless pets.

I'm not opposed to necessary medical procedures like desexing... or cutting out tumours... or caesarians... anything like that.

I am opposed to unnecessary medical procedures such as tail-docking, ear clipping, things of that nature. I hope that's cleared up any confusion on my viewpoints?

[aussielover]

Of course I desex. Desexing has nothing to do with human convenience, and everything to do with preventing the euthanasia of homeless pets.

I'm not opposed to necessary medical procedures like desexing... or cutting out tumours... or caesarians... anything like that.

I am opposed to unnecessary medical procedures such as tail-docking, ear clipping, things of that nature. I hope that's cleared up any confusion on my viewpoints?

Ummm

i'm sorry but in my opinion desexing has a lot to do with convience.

Puppies are easily prevented by containing your dogs when you are not in direct control of them.

If people actually bothered to appropriately contain their in heat female dogs and entire males, there would be no BYB "accidental" matings.

[poodlefan]

Of course I desex. Desexing has nothing to do with human convenience, and everything to do with preventing the euthanasia of homeless pets.

I'm not opposed to necessary medical procedures like desexing... or cutting out tumours... or caesarians... anything like that.

I am opposed to unnecessary medical procedures such as tail-docking, ear clipping, things of that nature. I hope that's cleared up any confusion on my viewpoints?

Dogs aren't "inconvenienced" by their sexual entirity. People are. Dogs don't commit suicide when they are homeless. We've established places for the routine killing of homeless dogs.

There is nothing "necessary" about desexing from a dog's perspective, especially in baby puppies. We do it to manage dogs, not for the benefit of dogs themselves. I'm all for responsible desexing of pets too but lets not kid ourselves that we do it just for the dogs.

A complete ban on debarking is about as helpful for dog welfare as mandatory desexing of baby puppies. What may seem like a great general idea has the potential to be detrimental to the welfare of individual dogs. That's why I object to blanket bans on surgical procedures that have the potential to benefit some animals and to the compulsory early age desexing of all dogs.

Edited October 14, 2010 by poodlefan

[aussielover]

I'm sorry teacup warriir, but could you clarify whether you are opposed to debarking IN ALL CASES??

[Moselle]

At the risk of repeating myself, my objection to de-barking is: at what point do we draw the line at modifying an animal's behaviour and body for the sake of human convenience?

There are plenty of people who annoy me - I consider the sound of their voice a nuisance. I have bogan neighbours behind me who have screaming arguments at 2am in the morning, frequently. I don't think I have the right to silence them though. I roll over and put a pillow over my head.

You do have admirable traits TW but unfortunately not everyone is lucky enough to share those traits, not everyone is capable of simply rolling over with a pillow over one's head, lol. The way I look at it is that debarking would have to beat putting a dog down....you will find that the majority of people have exhausted every other avenue before resorting to debarking. I know for one that I have and nothing.....NOTHING has worked. I have one choice....put the dog down or debark it....I know that I would opt to have her debarked any day rather than have her put down and in fact am looking into this matter right now.

I don't see why it's an issue if the surgery is conducted by a veterinarian ??? To hell with the RSPCA for making it so darn hard for pet owners wanting to do this....how many more dogs are discarded because of this....not every person is willing to exhaust every other avenue first before considering debarking.

[The Teacup Warrior]

There seems to be a lot of jumping to conclusions here.

At no point did I say that people in suburbia shouldn't have dogs. If people can't deal with a barking dog, my suggestion would be that they find some other way to deal with their dissatisfaction. It's noise... it's not like living surrounded by killer bees. Noise can't hurt you. Unless there's some magical element to this dog's barking that I'm not aware of? Perhaps it's causing people to bleed from the ears? If that's the case, slap my wrist and call me a fool...

There is no need for the dog to die just because it barks. There is always the option to move to a less suburban area... and no, I'm not saying the OP should do that, I'm just saying life is full of options.

I don't think that my post was graphic. Perhaps I've been exposed to more distressing sights than others. Unfortunately, horrible things happen in the world. Brushing them under the carpet doesn't stop them from happening.

The OP may choose to get her dog de-barked regardless of what I say- my opinion is totally irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. She may encounter negative reactions from other people who think it's cruel. Unfortunately, de-barking isn't viewed very favourably by a lot of people. Not everybody likes everyone else's opinions. It's not the end of the world. The OP will do what she wants in the end, and I'm not saying she can't.

I wish that sharing "horror stories" of puppy mill de-barking were enough to frighten people off de-barking, but let's be honest - I'm an anonymous nobody here, just like everybody else, and I ain't that powerful. I'm not kidding myself here folks. There's been more positive encouragement of the OP having the procedure done than negative - as I said, my opinion changes nothing. I simply don't see why people are so eager to jump down each other's throats here when someone disagrees with them - everyone interprets what's said as if it's a personal attack on them, their mother, their children's children's children... and then it turns into World War 3. Can't we all mellow out a bit?

[aussielover]

There seems to be a lot of jumping to conclusions here.

At no point did I say that people in suburbia shouldn't have dogs. If people can't deal with a barking dog, my suggestion would be that they find some other way to deal with their dissatisfaction. It's noise... it's not like living surrounded by killer bees. Noise can't hurt you. Unless there's some magical element to this dog's barking that I'm not aware of? Perhaps it's causing people to bleed from the ears? If that's the case, slap my wrist and call me a fool...

There is no need for the dog to die just because it barks. There is always the option to move to a less suburban area... and no, I'm not saying the OP should do that, I'm just saying life is full of options.

I don't think that my post was graphic. Perhaps I've been exposed to more distressing sights than others. Unfortunately, horrible things happen in the world. Brushing them under the carpet doesn't stop them from happening.

The OP may choose to get her dog de-barked regardless of what I say- my opinion is totally irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. She may encounter negative reactions from other people who think it's cruel. Unfortunately, de-barking isn't viewed very favourably by a lot of people. Not everybody likes everyone else's opinions. It's not the end of the world. The OP will do what she wants in the end, and I'm not saying she can't.

I wish that sharing "horror stories" of puppy mill de-barking were enough to frighten people off de-barking, but let's be honest - I'm an anonymous nobody here, just like everybody else, and I ain't that powerful. I'm not kidding myself here folks. There's been more positive encouragement of the OP having the procedure done than negative - as I said, my opinion changes nothing. I simply don't see why people are so eager to jump down each other's throats here when someone disagrees with them - everyone interprets what's said as if it's a personal attack on them, their mother, their children's children's children... and then it turns into World War 3. Can't we all mellow out a bit?

You assume that a nuisance barker barks because it is dissatisfied. Maybe that is even is true in 99% of cases. A small number of dogs actually find barking in itself a pleasant and rewarding experience.

Noise won't kill you, but lack of sleep sure might.

[The Teacup Warrior]

Hey, I'm the first person to admit I don't know it all! And I would never criticise a dog owner for de-barking. I'm sure there are many loving owners out there who've had it done in what they feel is the dog's best interests. I just don't know that I agree with the procedure.

Have I met every dog out there? No. I like to keep an open mind on things. I don't like to say "all" of something is bad. But as a rule, since people seem to want a definite answer, no, I don't understand the need to de-bark.

Re the spay/neuter issue, one could argue that desexing reduces the risk of cancer, and therefore is necessary.

Dogs don't commit suicide when they're homeless... but they do suffer, starve, get hit by cars, have horrible things done to them by teenagers (which I won't describe), get used as bait dogs in dog-fighting...

I think if more dogs had early-age desexing, it would reduce the number of "oops" litters, BYBs and puppy farmers. That said, I don't know everything. Is anybody able to tell me why early-age desexing may not be good for the individual dog? (not being sarcastic, I would actually like to know).

[poodlefan]

There seems to be a lot of jumping to conclusions here.

At no point did I say that people in suburbia shouldn't have dogs. If people can't deal with a barking dog, my suggestion would be that they find some other way to deal with their dissatisfaction. It's noise... it's not like living surrounded by killer bees. Noise can't hurt you. Unless there's some magical element to this dog's barking that I'm not aware of? Perhaps it's causing people to bleed from the ears? If that's the case, slap my wrist and call me a fool...

In some cases, that's called a bait. Shift workers who cannot sleep due to dogs barking all day every day, folk that let their dogs bark all night every night.. they are out there and there are laws that say such barking is not permitted. If as dog owners we fail to comply with the law then believe me there are those that will take it into their own hands and it will be the dogs that suffer.

There is no need for the dog to die just because it barks. There is always the option to move to a less suburban area... and no, I'm not saying the OP should do that, I'm just saying life is full of options.

There are options.. and then there are realistic options.

I don't think that my post was graphic. Perhaps I've been exposed to more distressing sights than others. Unfortunately, horrible things happen in the world. Brushing them under the carpet doesn't stop them from happening.

No it doesn't. If you are as profoundly against the practice of puppy farming as you seem to be (and so am I btw) can I suggest you change your name here? "Teacup" is a word beloved by puppy farmers and BYBs and no responsible breeder would EVER describe a dog in those terms.

Unfortunately, de-barking isn't viewed very favourably by a lot of people. .

Sadly, those people have probably never lived with a chronic barker, never got threatening letters from neighbours, notices from council threatening to seize the dog or had a dog poisoned. I don't think you'd find many folk in favour of debarking as a routine method of dog noise management but there are some shocking barkers out there

I wish that sharing "horror stories" of puppy mill de-barking were enough to frighten people off de-barking,

And again I question their relevance to this thread. Perhaps if you came up with a realistic option for the OP it might help. I'm sure she'd grab it.

Re the spay/neuter issue, one could argue that desexing reduces the risk of cancer, and therefore is necessary.

Are you aware that desexing INCREASES the risk of some cancers, of HD, of aggression in some dogs, of urinary incontinence.. I could go on.

Edited October 14, 2010 by poodlefan

[The Teacup Warrior]

Lack of sleep is why sleeping pills were invented

[poodlefan]

Lack of sleep is why sleeping pills were invented

Sorry but having to medicate one's entire family every night due to a neighbours dog is hardly a realistic option for sleep.

Edited October 14, 2010 by poodlefan

[aussielover]

Lack of sleep is why sleeping pills were invented

Sorry but having to medicate one's entire family every night due to a neighbours dog is hardly a realistic option for sleep.

so you would rather have whole families drug themselves to sleep, than let a one dog have a simple surgucal procedure done by a qualified veterinarian?

nice

ETA not directed at you PF

Edited October 14, 2010 by aussielover

[The Teacup Warrior]

I suggested moving. Apparently that's unrealistic. *shrugs* Hey, it's all groovy. De-barking for all. You've opened my eyes. The shame I'm feeling right now is unbearable.

And my handle has nothing to do with "teacup" breeds. There go those assumptions again...

Stop taking everything so seriously people - take a deep breath and smile. I promise, it feels good!

[poodlefan]

TW:

Is anybody able to tell me why early-age desexing may not be good for the individual dog? (not being sarcastic, I would actually like to know).

Article on the subject can be found here

[poodlefan]

I suggested moving. Apparently that's unrealistic. *shrugs* Hey, it's all groovy. De-barking for all. You've opened my eyes. The shame I'm feeling right now is unbearable.

And my handle has nothing to do with "teacup" breeds. There go those assumptions again...

Given that you are on a dog forum, don't be surprised when people don't react positively then. You aren't the only person who has negative associations with puppy mills