Help Needed With "stand For Examination"

[koalathebear]

Elbie's fine with his sits and drops. We've been able to get him to do a sit from a drop. He is actually doing much better at his sitting still for pats than he was.

We're still having some problems with his "stand" though:

1. He doesn't stand on the spot and thinks that he has to take a step forward to do a stand - this is because we started out luring him into a stand with our hand. We generally don't need to lure him anymore to do a stand.

2. Sometimes when we still lure him, he raises his paw because the hand before his face makes him think that we want 'shake hands'. It's hard for him to distinguish.

3. Regarding "stand for examination", he will hold the stand position for a period of time and will also retain it when we tug on the leash, but as soon as someone walks up to him to pat him - he does an automatic sit - complete with "pat me!" googoo eyes.

Any ideas? Thanks in advance!

Edited April 17, 2011 by koalathebear

[wuffles]

Does he still sit and wriggle with you and your OH? Will he keep his paws still if you put him in a stand-stay and walk past and around him? It "clicked" for Ava when we tried doing this at home rather than just doing it with strangers.

[koalathebear]

Does he still sit and wriggle with you and your OH? Will he keep his paws still if you put him in a stand-stay and walk past and around him? It "clicked" for Ava when we tried doing this at home rather than just doing it with strangers.

He will keep still and do a sit-stay for OH, me and also my mum (he used to go bonkers for her) but the stand-stay for pats (even when it's just non-exciting me patting him) is non-existent. The rump plonks onto the ground as soon as someone approaches him.

2 dogs in our class today did beautiful stands for examination and OH and I were going: "Uh oh ..." when our turn approached. Fortunately, newbies just had to do "sit for exam" but we know we'll have to get his stand up to scratch.

Edited October 10, 2010 by koalathebear

[huski]

I have no idea if it's right or not, but I trained a solid stand by sitting in a chair with Daisy in front of me and getting her to 'pop' her back end up instead of stepping into the stand. Once I did this I put it on voice command so I could remove the lure entirely (I also have it on a hand signal).

With the SFE, I would take it a back a few steps. Put him in a stand, and get someone to walk past, reward for that. Once that is good, get someone to walk up and stand next to him, and so on and so forth until you get to the point where someone can go to put their hands on him without him breaking the stand.

[koalathebear]

I have no idea if it's right or not, but I trained a solid stand by sitting in a chair with Daisy in front of me and getting her to 'pop' her back end up instead of stepping into the stand. Once I did this I put it on voice command so I could remove the lure entirely (I also have it on a hand signal).

With the SFE, I would take it a back a few steps. Put him in a stand, and get someone to walk past, reward for that. Once that is good, get someone to walk up and stand next to him, and so on and so forth until you get to the point where someone can go to put their hands on him without him breaking the stand.

Thanks huski - the chair plan sounds like it could work for Elbie and whatever works is 'right' for us.

We'll take the stand in slow steps then.

On a side note, I watched one of your vids when you were proofing Daisy's 'stay' and you were throwing toys around her and distracting her and she was lying there very well-behaved. I thought that it was a great way to proof Elbie's stay (we usually just tug on the leash). I tried it with Elbie and he was great as I threw toys around his head. Unfortunately, the first time I threw a ball past his head, my dog disappeared. He is good now and I can toss balls and his favourite toys and he will keep a drop/stay, sit/stay - I hope I can make his stand-stay as strong one day.

[huski]

I have no idea if it's right or not, but I trained a solid stand by sitting in a chair with Daisy in front of me and getting her to 'pop' her back end up instead of stepping into the stand. Once I did this I put it on voice command so I could remove the lure entirely (I also have it on a hand signal).

With the SFE, I would take it a back a few steps. Put him in a stand, and get someone to walk past, reward for that. Once that is good, get someone to walk up and stand next to him, and so on and so forth until you get to the point where someone can go to put their hands on him without him breaking the stand.

Thanks huski - the chair plan sounds like it could work for Elbie and whatever works is 'right' for us.

We'll take the stand in slow steps then.

On a side note, I watched one of your vids when you were proofing Daisy's 'stay' and you were throwing toys around her and distracting her and she was lying there very well-behaved. I thought that it was a great way to proof Elbie's stay (we usually just tug on the leash). I tried it with Elbie and he was great as I threw toys around his head. Unfortunately, the first time I threw a ball past his head, my dog disappeared. He is good now and I can toss balls and his favourite toys and he will keep a drop/stay, sit/stay - I hope I can make his stand-stay as strong one day.

That's awesome work KTB!

I do proofing like that with all positions, including stands. I put her in a stand and will stand over her with my legs on either side, I jump up and down, pat her, wave food in front of her face etc. I also only reward for all four feet on the ground (so if she 'shuffles' her feet or moves one then no reward). Just really solidify to hold the position no matter what, until I give the release command.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

My hound and I got confused about automatic sits and stands in "grade 2". Eventually I got my footwork right, my co-ordination with signals and treats correct (have to swap hands to give signal with left hand and treat with right etc.

But what got it more reliable was giving the signal, and saying the command, early before I stopped, and then catching her bottom as it went down, by sticking a hand under her tummy near her back legs. She did also sit a few times on the "inspection" or just go sucking up for treats from the instructor / inspector / patter and move off the spot. But I just made less distance between me and her, sometimes I did a stand and stood right in front of her nose as the inspector walked past, and didn't try to pat and build up from there, and if she went to sit, I'd catch her so she couldn't.

I've got a bit of a problem with her pivoting around to keep an eye on the treats now, but she doesn't get one if she moves a paw, and I let her know - "oops" when she moves and then try to make it easier to get right the next time eg just step in front and back so she doesn't have time/need to pivot, and build up from there.

[koalathebear]

But what got it more reliable was giving the signal, and saying the command, early before I stopped, and then catching her bottom as it went down, by sticking a hand under her tummy near her back legs.

That reminds me of what happened tonight. OH said: "Stand!" to Elbie, I popped my arm under Elbie's belly to hold his back legs up. From the dampness, he must have done a wee pretty recently. Training was interrupted by me running off to wash my arm.

Edited October 10, 2010 by koalathebear

[Aidan3]

I teach it from a drop and from a sit. Have them in the drop or sit facing you, in close, then take a step towards them. As soon as the back end starts to pop up (you know, so they can get out of the way!), click and treat. When you've got a reliable stand, start adding the cue immediately prior to taking the step forward.

[Luke W]

I re-taught a stand on a table so Barkly couldn't step forward.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

But what got it more reliable was giving the signal, and saying the command, early before I stopped, and then catching her bottom as it went down, by sticking a hand under her tummy near her back legs.

That reminds me of what happened tonight. OH said: "Stand!" to Elbie, I popped my arm under Elbie's belly to hold his back legs up. From the dampness, he must have done a wee pretty recently. :D Training was interrupted by me running off to wash my arm.

Yet another example of the advantages of a girl dog...

I'm not that bothered about pee, it is sterile when it comes out - though I did spend a long time hosing my leg off after being generously annointed by a naughty rottweiler...you just don't want that much acid on your skin, sox and shoes. I don't let the back end of that dog and a few others that think every upright is for peeing on, near me any more.

[Jigsaw]

When the dog is in heel position and you're asking the dog to stand in training this I pass my hand (I use my left hand) across the face of the dog, down the LHS of the dog and then hold gently the stifle or knee of the dog rather than under the tummy (therefore avoiding the possibility of the wet area in boys :D ). I then usually reward from the right hand. I had successfully taught my dog to stand while I sat in front of her from a drop or sit but from the heel position I had to use this method as when I changed positions it confused her and so I adopted this method to help her understand what I was after. Then taught her just like stays small increments of distance and then duration incorporating rewards for steady feet.

It's important to make sure your dog learns to stand for exam in a balanced manner. I've found a lot of dogs who don't stand with their weight evenly distributed often move their feet during the examination if they turn their head to look at the examiner or when the handler returns they shift their balance to follow their handler.

[Cleo's Corgwyn]

Lots of good advice- try getting OH to stand right in front of him while you move around Elbie. Keep his focus on OH while you graually move in closer and closer. This is one of those things that should be built up gradually. Keep his focus solid, keep him steady, and build on that.

The advice another poster gave you of passing a hand down his side and keeping it against his rear leg might help too. Grab me on Sunday if you want me to have a look.

He's doing well, and is still very much a puppy. If you build this solidly now, he'll keep doing brilliantly.

[BMAK]

stand can be tricky for dogs that love people and know they shouldnt be doing anything other then sitting for patts as thats what we have tought then in manners you said she does know her sit and her stands but is probably uncertain to why she has to stand for a pat when she normally sits haha well,

exactly how jigsaw said so i don't have to repeat myself and to save you reading more, you can still use your food if she is a food focused dog but stand beside her with a food lure at her mouth and your left hand on her stifle so she is next to your left leg have someone(someone that she gets excited for) circle you and elbie every time they pass (maintaining the stand) you can feed her get them to move closer, and everytime she gets a teat for staying in a stand eventually when she isnt excited about the person waking past the can gentally touch her back quickly while she is being treated with the food eventally she recognises that every time she stands to get patted food comes and eventually you can

*use different people

*different positions, infront oposide side not having to hold her knee joint anymore

*delayed rewards instead of a lure

if she goes back to sitting go back to standing beside her multiple times so you can quickly correct her

[bedazzledx2]

Practicing it wrong is worse than no practice at all Been there, done that!!! I would be ensuring he is rock solid on the stand before introducing the examination bit. Can he hold a stand while you throw food around him? a ball? a favourite toy? Next, can he hold a stand while someone approaches? No patting yet!!!! Does he know a release cue? Really???? Check that he really understands all the elements before putting it all together.

Edited October 13, 2010 by bedazzledx2

[RubyStar]

Practicing it wrong is worse than no practice at all ;) Been there, done that!!! I would be ensuring he is rock solid on the stand before introducing the examination bit. Can he hold a stand while you throw food around him? a ball? a favourite toy? Next, can he hold a stand while someone approaches? No patting yet!!!! Does he know a release cue? Really???? Check that he really understands all the elements before putting it all together.

Where were you when I got Ruby

[koalathebear]

I meant to post back ages ago but things got away with me. Thanks heaps to all for their help. We worked away at it and we have managed to teach Elbie to stand on the spot without moving forward. A rather dark video is

- you can see that Hoover also wants to get involved and Elbie has to ignore him

Knowing what we know now, we have been making a lot of effort to teach Hoover 'stand' so that he doesn't automatically sit when he's supposed to stand like Elbie used to do. It's a bit nuts how difficult stand can be if your dog is a sitter ... Elbie will also stand from a drop, too. Getting him to stand still for pats is still a challenge but he's getting better.

Edited January 15, 2011 by koalathebear

[koalathebear]

Stand is fine but we are now having mild issues with Elbie's stand for exam.

First of all, because of all the rear-end awareness training we were doing before, when I was returning to his side by walking behind him and then back to his right - he was turning his body around i.e. keeping front paws on the spot and rotating his butt around. Fortunately I have managed to teach him to stay put BUT now he has a habit of craning his head around to follow my progress and watch me as I return to his side i.e. he doesn't have that stoic "I am a table" staring straight ahead look that he's supposed to ... He doesn't shift from his stand with his feet but his head is definitely all over the shop. Trying to hold food before his nose to keep him looking forward just makes him walk forward.

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance!

Edited April 17, 2011 by koalathebear

[fuzzy82]

I don't like luring the stand. It's basically teaching the dog that it's ok to move forward to stand, and there is no reason why the dog can't take a step forward while standing, because he has learnt that that is ok.

I like the idea of capturing the stand. You just watch the dog, when he is standing comfortably you click and treat. That way there is no issue with him thinking he can move forward, because there has never been any forward motion involved.

For my dogs I shaped it. I had them in a sit in front of me, then just shaped every little butt lift until they were standing, then keep feeding them treats while they are standing. There is still no issue with them moving forward, because I was in front of them so they couldn't move forward, and they also kick back into the stand, which is what I wanted. So there is never any forward motion associated with the stand.

[koalathebear]

hi fuzzy: Elbie's fine with stand now - he stands on the spot with no stepping forward. The issue is when I walk away and return to his side, he cranes his head around to follow me and I want him to keep staring ahead if possible.