De-sexing Or A Litter

[Rebanne]

You also keep saying that you are not going to post on this thread again yet you do....

Please respond to some of the concerns raised by others here who are only trying to help you.

careful aussielover or your name may end up on that list of nawty DOLer's that gets pm'ed to all the newcomers.

[Danois]

Thanks for the reply souff but if i want to reply a diffrent way i feel i can!

To tell the truth i feel i have enough posts at the moment on this topic and im still looking into alot of the info and websites posted and i dont want to be felt pressured for a quick reply. I will reply from the first few posts first, then work my way down! I want to reasurch a few topics and return with answers later on. There is no time limit so im going to take my time, and do it at my own free will.

But like i said, its time for me to get off the computer and go and enjoy the weekend, after a working week!

Samantha

Hi and welcome to DOL - which is a discussion forum rather than a one way conversation. It would be worthwhile to have your responses posted in here (rather than in PM as that's really contrary to the purpose of a forum) as they may also assist others who are in the same position as you.

IMO I would not breed a toy breed that was my first dog and without having been mentored by and assisted an experienced breeder including helping whelp a litter and going through the first 4 weeks or so of sleep deprivation and constant vigilance once puppies arrive.

If you are going to breed it would also pay to speak with the local after hours emergency clinic and find out how much they charge for an emergency c-section at 2am on a public holiday and make sure you have that amount tucked away just in case.

[persephone]

Sam... most conversing on D O L is done in the public eye... and you shouldn't feel pressure to reply individually .I guess it's nice that you want to.. but it's just a conversation on screen..so everyone joins in ...no need for instant replies, either.. if you don't come back for a few days , it doesn't matter- the thread will still be here!

[Souff]

Samantha, as you posted on a public forum it would be really nice if you replied to some of the questions on the public forum.

Look, if your little pup is going to be a tall adult and not fit the breed standard, then it is better to have her as a de-sexed pet and if you still want to breed, buy from a breeder whose dogs are tiny and do fit the breed standard.

Many breeders have kept pups that didn't turn out to be the best example of the breed and were non-standard in some way. They can be found lolling around breeders home many years later as much loved de-sexed pets that were not used in any breeding programme. Thats how it is with dog breeding - we still love the non-standard ones but they stay at home and dont go to shows and are not bred from.

If your bitch is tiny and is unlikely to weigh more than 2.5kgs as an adult, or if you think she wont, then either way it would be showing good manners to tell the people on here who have taken the trouble to answer your post in an honest and open way.

Souff.

Thanks for the reply souff but if i want to reply a diffrent way i feel i can!

To tell the truth i feel i have enough posts at the moment on this topic and im still looking into alot of the info and websites posted and i dont want to be felt pressured for a quick reply. I will reply from the first few posts first, then work my way down! I want to reasurch a few topics and return with answers later on. There is no time limit so im going to take my time, and do it at my own free will.

But like i said, its time for me to get off the computer and go and enjoy the weekend, after a working week!

Samantha

Samantha,

I don't care if you stand on your head in the bathtub, or really how you send your reply. But as others can learn from a two way conversation on a public forum. There have been some very memorable threads on DOL that have had a variety of views discussed without blood on the floor, but with some very diverse viewpoints being put forward. It is good to stand back and and look at things from somebody else's perspective. Hiding behind private answers is not the same at all.

I am not going to bore you with some of the nightmare deliveries that I have seen in small breeds, but I will just say this. Breeding toy dogs can be a totally different experience to a litter of Border Collies being born. The advice that you have been given - to be mentored by a breeder of toy sized dogs - is excellent advice. The people who gave you that advice didnt hide behind PMs - they put it out there for the public to see because it is good advice for others too.

Be brave, go public! Leave the twilight world of the PMers! We wont eat you. Promise!

Souff

[~Myschafis~]

Samantha,

I am glad that you have taken the time to voice your question, hopefully it has given you enough of an opportunity to understand fully what your final decision will entail I am sure you will find a wealth of knowledge on this forum.

From a show person/breeder & rescue perspective, I know enough lovely Pom breeders, having enough litters to cater for the 'pet market' demand and what they aren't ethically doing the puppy farmers and pet shops are filling instead.

If you have your heart set on breeding, can I recommend you join your local rescue group, become involved and help them whelp the many bitches that come in needing our assistance because they have been dumped. I think its a great experience, you will get to witness the process first hand.

As others have said as well you have chosen a total heart break breed, prepare yourself for the costs of human & surgical intervention when it doesnt go to plan, I would be saving a few thousand for this litter just in case. Be also mindful as a small breed you may only receive one puppy if your lucky, maybe none, or maybe one puppy that fails to thrive, all options you have to consider. I can guarantee if you do this ethically you will be severly in the red financially so just prepare yourself for that as well

For me, I do not take breeding lightly, its a risk to the bitch so unless I have all my chickens in a row I would not be risking my bitch for the sake of it

I hope i have not offended, if you do continue wanting to breed, you are more than welcome to contact me and I will put you in touch with some truly lovely Pomeranian breeders

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=206609 - Perhaps a thread to mull through of the dramas another Pomeranian person has recently had...very unlucky but it happens none the less

Edited October 9, 2010 by ~Myschafis~

[espinay2]

A lot of good advice from people here, which I wont repeat. I would like to put forward one thing for consideration though.

'Just breeding pets' is no excuse for not breeding the best example of the breed possible.

There is no such thing as 'just a pet'.

Owners who just want to enjoy life with a dog as their companion have a right to own a healthy, well bred, excellent example of the breed. They don't deserve second best and they don't deserve a breeder who thinks that because they are 'just breeding pets' they don't need to be as diligent, to do as much research or to take as much care in choosing the dogs they breed.

Pets are not second class, and nor are pet owners. And they deserve a breeder who is willing to breed the best dogs they possibly can.

[LizT]

Joining DOL - Baptism by fire

Flame suit should come standard issue!

On a more serious note it's nice to see people getting informed decisions regarding ideas they have. Good on you Samantha.

[SwaY]

DESEX

[Earthdog]

Thanks for the reply souff but if i want to reply a diffrent way i feel i can!

To tell the truth i feel i have enough posts at the moment on this topic and im still looking into alot of the info and websites posted and i dont want to be felt pressured for a quick reply. I will reply from the first few posts first, then work my way down! I want to reasurch a few topics and return with answers later on. There is no time limit so im going to take my time, and do it at my own free will.

But like i said, its time for me to get off the computer and go and enjoy the weekend, after a working week!

Samantha

Surely you wouldn't have to research what your dog's breeder thinks of your idea?

I think people will start to get jack of answering any of your questions if you can't be bothered responding to questions asked of you.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Guilty of not going through 5 pages but as a rescuer, I will tell you that pounds are full of purebred pomeranians and most of them are matted through and through. Good homes that will keep the dog for the whole of its natural life and will keep the dog in good health and properly groomed are very, very rare.

When rehoming any dog (inc puppies), it isn't about selling the dog to the first seemingly nice people that come your way.

Why not you may wonder? Well, because they may intend to be taking your little puppy Pom and using it for back yard breeding with their maltese or their foxy.

And this is why we euthanase over 150,000 dogs every year in Australia. Because there are FAR TOO MANY dogs being produced.

PM me if you must or call me - happy to have an in depth and explanatory conversation with you at any time.

[haven]

You also keep saying that you are not going to post on this thread again yet you do....

Please respond to some of the concerns raised by others here who are only trying to help you.

careful aussielover or your name may end up on that list of nawty DOLer's that gets pm'ed to all the newcomers.

Say what? Surely this doesn't happen!

And if it does....who is on the list?

[Parkeyre]

You also keep saying that you are not going to post on this thread again yet you do....

Please respond to some of the concerns raised by others here who are only trying to help you.

careful aussielover or your name may end up on that list of nawty DOLer's that gets pm'ed to all the newcomers.

Say what? Surely this doesn't happen!

And if it does....who is on the list?

the OP said she'd already been PMed a list of people to stay away from.

I would LOVE to know who sent it, probably someone who's an idiot and cops it from us all.

[SwaY]

Preetttyyy please tell me I made the list!

[Andisa]

Samantha - 10 weeks ago my pug had her 2nd litter (1st litter everything was perfect) unfortunately this time the 1st pup had a big head and she could not deliver naturally, if I had have known within business hours that she would require a c section we would have gone in then - however that wasn't how it worked out. We had to go to the emergency clinic and had to pay HALF before they would even take her in and the balance when collecting her. 3 pups delivered but the only surviver was the pup with the bloody big head who was stuck. He was handraised because unfortunately mum didn't want much to do with him - feeding a puppy round the clock every 2-3 hours might sound ok but after a few weeks without help it soon became bloody hard work. It was not smooth sailing, mum was digging the bed constantly exposing him the heat pad that dehydrated him so bad I thought he would not make it - at almost 2 weeks old she squashed him - he was gasping for air, pooing and weeing and vomiting as well as a bit flat - that happened in the time it took me to wash his bottle after feeding him - luckily I checked on him so soon or he would have been dead. But that was not all...at almost 4 weeks old he had aspiration pneumonia, vet thinks this was from being over fed, he is a piggy pup, feeds like he has never had enough so it thought that the food (milk) came back up and went down the wrong way...1st vet visit vet gave him a 50/50 chance of survival, he had daily injections of AB's and anti inflams for one week, he was still not over it and by the 2nd week he looked as though he might make it. Meals were kept small and often and a 2nd week of daily injections of AB's and anti inflams....in the 2 weeks he still managed to gain 165g and was finally over it. This one puppy has been harder to raise than what my 6 day premature rottweiler litter 2 yrs ago was. Since he had so many problems I kept him longer and was vaccinated and chipped at 9 1/2 weeks old.

As I have both large and small breeds I can tell you that the after hours emergency c section bill is the same for Pug as what it is for a Rottweiler...try $2200....(depends on the area you live)

So allowing for not only the costs associated to raising this pup there is also the loss of income from not working for the 1st month and very limited work for 2 weeks the pup was ill I stopped adding up costs in raising this pup when it reached around $4000.

While he is a lovely boy he isn't what I call good enough for me to go on with so is will be leaving next week to the most wonderful lady who has seen all the highs and lows of raising Maverick.

Now ask yourself if you breed your over sized bitch if things don't go as well as you hope for what are you going to do if it turns to shit....and believe me - it can.....if I were you I would be telling those who want you to breed your over sized bitch to go and buy a puppy from a registered breeder, much cheaper and easier for you..

Edited October 9, 2010 by Andisa

[Souff]

Preetttyyy please tell me I made the list!

baw haw haw

After Souff pls!!

[Souff]

Samantha - 10 weeks ago my pug had her 2nd litter (1st litter everything was perfect) unfortunately this time the 1st pup had a big head and she could not deliver naturally, if I had have known within business hours that she would require a c section we would have gone in then - however that wasn't how it worked out. We had to go to the emergency clinic and had to pay HALF before they would even take her in and the balance when collecting her. 3 pups delivered but the only surviver was the pup with the bloody big head who was stuck. He was handraised because unfortunately mum didn't want much to do with him - feeding a puppy round the clock every 2-3 hours might sound ok but after a few weeks without help it soon became bloody hard work. It was not smooth sailing, mum was digging the bed constantly exposing him the heat pad that dehydrated him so bad I thought he would not make it - at almost 2 weeks old she squashed him - he was gasping for air, pooing and weeing and vomiting as well as a bit flat - that happened in the time it took me to wash his bottle after feeding him - luckily I checked on him so soon or he would have been dead. But that was not all...at almost 4 weeks old he had aspiration pneumonia, vet thinks this was from being over fed, he is a piggy pup, feeds like he has never had enough so it thought that the food (milk) came back up and went down the wrong way...1st vet visit vet gave him a 50/50 chance of survival, he had daily injections of AB's and anti inflams for one week, he was still not over it and by the 2nd week he looked as though he might make it. Meals were kept small and often and a 2nd week of daily injections of AB's and anti inflams....in the 2 weeks he still managed to gain 165g and was finally over it. This one puppy has been harder to raise than what my 6 day premature rottweiler litter 2 yrs ago was. Since he had so many problems I kept him longer and was vaccinated and chipped at 9 1/2 weeks old.

As I have both large and small breeds I can tell you that the after hours emergency c section bill is the same for Pug as what it is for a Rottweiler...try $2200....(depends on the area you live)

So allowing for not only the costs associated to raising this pup there is also the loss of income from not working for the 1st month and very limited work for 2 weeks the pup was ill I stopped adding up costs in raising this pup when it reached around $4000.

While he is a lovely boy he isn't what I call good enough for me to go on with so is will be leaving next week to the most wonderful lady who has seen all the highs and lows of raising Maverick.

Now ask yourself if you breed your over sized bitch if things don't go as well as you hope for what are you going to do if it turns to shit....and believe me - it can.....if I were you I would be telling those who want you to breed your over sized bitch to go and buy a puppy from a registered breeder, much cheaper and easier for you..

Andisa, I am moist eyed and feeling very very tired after reading this. It IS hard work round the clock when Mum doesn't cooperate all that well, and from what I have seen, the smaller breeds can be notorious for this. Frankly I don't blame them for not being clucky, especially after a C-section after all that work through the contractions, only for the pup to get stuck. With their tiny bodies motherhood puts a huge strain on them too. Exhausting.

Souff

[Starkehre]

Hi Sam, welcome to DOL.

I have read right through this entire thread and I apologise if this was raised, but I don't remember seeing it... along with all the other fantastic advise you have received here, may I also add this -

Let's say that your close family and friends do follow through with taking on your pups. Apart from most of us being aware that it is usually never a good idea selling/giving anything away to family or friends (for fear of a fall out) what sort of guarantees and/or contracts are these people going to expect from you as their puppy's breeder?

If they were purchasing their puppies from an ethical, registered, reputable breeder that would always do minimum of the specified health tests involved in their given breed, there is every chance they would be receiving -

* follow up support for the entire life of the pup

* a promise to take back/rehome the dog if their life situation changes in any way at any time

* refund the purchase price and/or financial assistance with vet bills if any genetic diseases issues arise in the dog

* correct training and behavioural advice relating directly to traits of the breed

You need to ask yourself if you are equipt mentally, emotionally, physically and financially to provide all of this and possibly more. Being an ethical breeder is a massive responsibility. Your job as a breeder does not end when the puppies go to their new homes.

And if you opt to being a non-ethical breeder, it is ultimately your choice, but you will not receive the same warm welcome and years of experience and helpful advice from the knowledgable people here that would then classify you as a BYB.

I know which I would choose. There is a magical feeling that you get when you do the "right thing" regarding life decisions.

[Robbi]

A lot of good advice from people here, which I wont repeat. I would like to put forward one thing for consideration though.

'Just breeding pets' is no excuse for not breeding the best example of the breed possible.

There is no such thing as 'just a pet'.

Owners who just want to enjoy life with a dog as their companion have a right to own a healthy, well bred, excellent example of the breed. They don't deserve second best and they don't deserve a breeder who thinks that because they are 'just breeding pets' they don't need to be as diligent, to do as much research or to take as much care in choosing the dogs they breed.

Pets are not second class, and nor are pet owners. And they deserve a breeder who is willing to breed the best dogs they possibly can.

This post should be pinned and read by anybody considering breeding"only for the pet market" as people who are buyig purebreds as pets are the backbone of anybreed, nothing sells the general public more on a certain breed than healthy, happy family pets out in the community They are the true ambassaders of breeds as most of the population dont go to dog shows.

Please dont breed for the sake of breeding, in the end it is the dogs that pay for peoples mistakes and flights of fancy.

[♥Baxter♥]

Wow a do not talk to LIST?? First I hear from it! Very curious now, could someone kindly pm it to me???? Thanks!

[WreckitWhippet]

Preetttyyy please tell me I made the list!

I reckon I know who number one is