Exporting Puppy To New Zealand

[Partipaws]

Hello all,

The situation goes like this.

We had a lady in New Zealand desperately wanting to purchase a black and white parti from us - As we are only been in the breed for 3 years and a very small scale breeder we explained that I could not tell her when one comes available as we really only breed for ourselves for show and breeding and do not breed at all often and that we do not practice waiting lists - after all that she was still pretty persistent about staying in touch for a good long year and called every now and then or email to see what we had planned etc.

This year as some of you may know we had our 2nd ever litter born back in July producing 2 male pups, one solid black and one black and white. At 8 weeks of age, we decided we were not going to keep any of the boys as they were not for show and we have to be strict on how many boys we have here!!! Although I was not 100% on exporting my puppies, lets just say it does scare me a bit in send a pup or even an adult on a plane, and it would not be something I would go out and pursue, but as this lady was still looking for a puppy and she only lived in NZ we decided to give her a chance and give her first rights on the puppy.

She was happy to go ahead with the purchase of him and I went about getting quotes for her for flights etc - once all done and agreed she transferred the money into my account - purchase price + shipping costs and I booked the flights (I did not add on any money on the flights to cover our costs on driving back and forth to Sydney for AQUIS vet check and then dropping puppy off for the flight - flight was $1070, she transferred $1070 into our account and we sent $1070 to jetpets)

Puppy was 10 weeks old by the time of his AQIS vet check - we live in central coast and took work off for the morning to drive puppy all the way down to Mascot Sydney.

A few days later puppy came ill and was at the vets.

Jetpets contract states that you can receive a full refund minus the $390 AQUIS vet check, if given 7 days notice. When we realised puppy was very very ill we canceled the flights prior to 7 days to get the full refund on the flights for the lady in case things went bad.

Puppy passed away at the vets having been there for 4 days.

The lady knew he was not well and we kept her well informed - We contacted the lady straight away with the news when puppy passed away.

We gave it a few days for ourselves to get over the shock and for her to come to terms with what has happened and contacted her again to work out the refund etc - we have offered to refund the full purchase price, and also the flights.

We have the flight money here ready to send, but through our breeder friends have been told that the "shipping costs" is not really our responsibility in terms of making up the $390 for the AQUIS vet check - so we should not need to refund the AQUIS vet check because that is the responsibility of the purchaser - the same as if someone is not happy with a puppy and wants to send it back for a replacement or refund, it is there responsibility to cover those costs??? This is what I have been told by a number of breeders, and although it has not been discussed myself and my partner decided that we would just pay it and cope it as a loss??? - what is everyones thoughts??? Its kinda money we don't have at the moment and we have had a little change of heart given the lady has become really abusive and rude to us???

I know many of you will understand that right now we are just devastated with the loss of the puppy - its been hard enough to call this lady to let her know that her puppy has passed away - we have thousands of dollars in vet bills and admit to dipping into the pups purchase money to try and get to the bottom of his illness and get him well.... We always knew and were prepared to pay the full refund if puppy did not survive - we never ever thought otherwise.

The lady has been fantastic during this whole thing and although devastated she was very understanding and said we could pay in installments if we could not find all the money at once.

However today I get a phone call from the lady abusing me and being so awful - We spoke to her on Sunday about the refund and got her details to process it - we told her that it was a long weekend here so that will delay it a little as banks wont be open on Monday, but then on tuesday we found out that jetpets had yet to transfer the money over so we had to rush to get all this fixed up - we never gave the lady a date as to when the money was going to go through, nor had she stipulated a timeframe to meet - but she has been so horrible and saying she is so upset with everything and us, that she has got herself all ready for her puppy and paid all this money for her puppy and now it is dead and so on so forth - I am taking a step back and realising she is probably going through a hard time as well with the pups passing, but she never had the puppy so had yet to grow attached as we did, we are at the front of it all!!! sh!t lady, how about you put yourself in my shoes for a minute and see what hell I have been put through - watching puppy suffer and loose the battle, now having to scrape together all this money for the vet bills, the refund - I was there when he was born, As you all would know you put a lot of effort, money and blood sweat and tears into the puppies, you grow attached, lots of sleepless nights etc etc.

Sorry...I am so devastated - I am doing all I can to be a good breeder and refunding her all her money, and it never once crossed my mind that I would not give her her money back, its not mine it is hers - I am no scammer, I am a decent honest person!!!! And I was even going to cover things that maybe I shouldn't be??? I am at a huge loss for words for why she is treating us like this...

Within the purchase price of the puppy, we have also had him desexed prior to leaving as well - so we have spent a good fortune on the preparation of this puppy.

If someone could let me know what is right or wrong about the shipping costs and refund that would be helpful as right now with the whole being treated like sh!t I really don't want to go ahead with covering things that maybe I shouldn't be...

Thank you in advance.

Jess

[cowanbree]

I would refund purchase price plus any money you can get back, otherwise I think the loss is hers. Perhaps I might offer to pay half that loss but I don't think there is an obligation

[Partipaws]

Thanks Cowanbree - This is the first time I have experienced having to refund - I wish it to be my last but that wont happen if I continue breeding

Never mind - if the lady did not come out and attack me over the phone I would have just given her everything back - I did question how much of it I was responsible for but I felt so awful that the puppy passed away - It was not from inherit problems or through lack of care - just a freak illness and one we just can not find the answers to - if it were a different situation like inherit problem that leads back to me as the breeder then sure I will feel a whole lot more responsible!!!

Just a shame the lady is acting this way - It has really hurt me and I am already suffering enough as it is for loosing puppy

Thanks for finding the time to share your thoughts.

[dancinbcs]

I'm a little confused on the timeframe. When you took the puppy to Mascot was it to leave him at Jetpets or could you not find an AQIS certified vet closer to do the inspection? Just wondering because our vets are AQIS certified and I am not sure why the puppy went to Mascot two weeks before his flight.

If it wasn't hereditary was it still something congenital, did the illness have anything to do with the early desexing or if it was something contagious, he could have caught it at the vets while being desexed?

From what I can make of this I would say the buyer is entitled to a full refund, including the AQIS fee, but less something for your time and money to take him to Sydney. It is tragic to lose a puppy at this age but if the puppy never left your care, then I can't see how the buyer should be liable for any costs.

[Partipaws]

ok - I will try fill you in on all the things we did in order....

puppy received first vaccination at 6 weeks, at 8 weeks he was desexed and given 10 days to heal and have stitches removed - sometime during this period the money came through into my account, but I held off booking flights to allow enough time for puppy to heal and that I felt happy to further pursue the flights.

I booked through jetpets and this included everything as personally I just preferred someone else organised it all as I have never exported before. AQIS vet check and blood test was included - I could have used a local AQIS approved vet, but I rang around and they quote $490, and Jetpets did not recognise those vets??? and their vet was $390 included in the costs. They told me the AQUIS health check and blood test for Babesia was to be done 10 days before flying out as this allows time for results to come back and this is normal procedure and a requirement for quarantine/shipping to NZ, another health check to be done when we dropped puppy off for his flights. I just went along with what Jetpets advised, they did everything for me and this was what was required apparently???

Puppy was not sick due to inherit problem, nor from lack of care on my behalf and nor from desexing - just bad luck I think.... there is too large a window period from time of vaccination, from desexing for it to have stemmed from there - We think it could have been campylobacter, where he has got it from I don't think I will ever know - Our vet unfortunately did not treat for it until it was too late - I am still trying to find out as much info as I can on this as I am just overwhelmed by all that has happened at the moment and need to know some answers I guess! The strange thing is that he was unwell a few days after the AQUIS vet check - so it gets me wondering.....

I understand where you are coming from, I certainly do not want to scam her for her money, We accepted with out question that the puppy needed treatment and never once did we feel it was her responsibility - She had paid for the pom 3 weeks ago so legally he was hers, but I never questioned our position and responsibility for that puppy while he was in our care - I question the shipping cost though, as if she had organised it it would be out of her pocket and at her loss - The vet check has been paid for and the work done - this being the preparation - Its a really tricky one - hence why I am here asking as I am on both sides??? I really would prefer to be rid of the money and of her after her treating me so badly even though I have been very accommodating - I knew as soon as the puppy passed away that I will need to refund her or offer her a replacement pup - But decided to never offer replacement as I do not have any litters planned for a while, so prefer to refund in full the purchase price....

[Partipaws]

thanks to you both for your thoughts - I have had a number of private messages and reponses from other forums - I have made my decision, well actually I think I made my decision even before hearing other peoples responses, but for the element of "knowing better next time" I thought it be worth my while in getting other views on this - just a bit of food for thought I guess.

Dancinbcs I hope I have answered everything and cleared up your concerns - I just realised why this might have confused you - If you have sent dogs over to NZ and they were older then you would not have had to do the blood test. I believe it was because the puppy was under 16 weeks that they have to have the blood tests - If I had known about this I would have not gone ahead or held onto pup until he was of an age.

[dancinbcs]

Just found this information.

"Campylobacteriosis is a common cause of enteritis (intestinal inflammation) in man and several animal species, including dogs and cats. The disorder is caused by a bacterium, Campylobacter jejuni.

The conditions associated with an increased risk of developing campylobacteriosis are:

• Animals with diarrhea

• Young animals

• Crowded housing conditions

• Poor sanitation

• Stressful conditions, such as pregnancy, surgery, or other illness

• Concurrent infection with other intestinal pathogens such as parvovirus, Salmonella, Giardia or parasites

Campylobacteriosis is a leading cause of intestinal disease in people. Puppies and kittens can serve as a source of infection for humans. In many cases, dogs and cats are carriers of the organism, but show no clinical signs. When clinical signs are present in dogs and cats, it is usually in animals younger than six months of age."

Also discovered that in humans the incubation period from infection is usually two to five days, with a range of one to ten days.

I don't suppose you will ever know for sure where he was infected but desexing followed by the trip to Sydney and back could have compromised the health of such a tiny puppy. It is a lot of stress in a few weeks. I know most puppies bounce back from early desexing and have seen dozens done when I worked at a shelter but I don't like the idea at all and also worry about what they could pick up while at the vets at that age. After this experience you will probably be reluctant to export again but if you do, either don't desex the puppy or send it at a later age. Where any of the other puppies desexed at the same time?

Strange about the AQIS vets. I don't see how Jetpets could not recognise paperwork done by an AQIS certified vet. I haven't exported but have many friends who have and our vet just does all the AQIS stuff before they organise transport.

[Partipaws]

Just found this information.

"Campylobacteriosis is a common cause of enteritis (intestinal inflammation) in man and several animal species, including dogs and cats. The disorder is caused by a bacterium, Campylobacter jejuni.

The conditions associated with an increased risk of developing campylobacteriosis are:

• Animals with diarrhea

• Young animals

• Crowded housing conditions

• Poor sanitation

• Stressful conditions, such as pregnancy, surgery, or other illness

• Concurrent infection with other intestinal pathogens such as parvovirus, Salmonella, Giardia or parasites

Campylobacteriosis is a leading cause of intestinal disease in people. Puppies and kittens can serve as a source of infection for humans. In many cases, dogs and cats are carriers of the organism, but show no clinical signs. When clinical signs are present in dogs and cats, it is usually in animals younger than six months of age."

Also discovered that in humans the incubation period from infection is usually two to five days, with a range of one to ten days.

I don't suppose you will ever know for sure where he was infected but desexing followed by the trip to Sydney and back could have compromised the health of such a tiny puppy. It is a lot of stress in a few weeks. I know most puppies bounce back from early desexing and have seen dozens done when I worked at a shelter but I don't like the idea at all and also worry about what they could pick up while at the vets at that age. After this experience you will probably be reluctant to export again but if you do, either don't desex the puppy or send it at a later age. Where any of the other puppies desexed at the same time?

Strange about the AQIS vets. I don't see how Jetpets could not recognise paperwork done by an AQIS certified vet. I haven't exported but have many friends who have and our vet just does all the AQIS stuff before they organise transport.

Thanks for the information - I have gone through many an articles myself trying to get to the bottom of it - One thing is for sure, we are not an overcrowded breeder - we only have 5 poms - and live on a large block - however my breeder friend who has had experience with this in her own kennel has said that she had a bitch come from a large scale breeder and her puppies were all infected and infected every other puppy in her kennel - The mother of these puppies, I bought about 6 months ago from a large scale breeder and yes both her puppies turned sick - One was not desexed - but it could have been as simple as upsetting the balance, whether it be new home, a vet consult which stressed the pup etc - its a really unfortunate turn of a events - but I would never have known..... it just feels as though everything I try and do fails miserably for me - My first litter I kept one pup the rest went to pet homes to be desexed - I later find out a registered breeder has got one, she got her friend to buy it so she could use it - yes these sound like pretty bad accusations and yes I have further investigated it with DOGS NSW, but there is nothing they can do until proper proof is given - I have spoken to both owner and breeder and threatened that if I notice any suspicious puppies then I will investigate them - this breeder has done the dirty on many top pom breeders by using their bloodlines through the purchase of a pet, using them to stud and falsify the litter registration documents - yesI know it is very wrong, but the only way I can prove it is once I notice puppies on the ground that may be from my boy - so because of this hard lesson I later investigate a different form of sales contracts so that my puppies do get desexed and later found early desexing to be the only guarantee - I worry far too much about one of my small puppies ending up in a puppy mill or stupid backyard breeder - most of the time it would be that I have too many boys or the girls are too small for breeding - so how then do I guarantee a life for them where their health and well being will not put at risk with breeding??? its a tough one and I guess no way is right - I was just doing what I could to give my puppies a secure future - if they were a bigger breed then I would not be so worried - I investigated the early desexing and spoke to another pom breeder who desexes everything at 8 weeks before they leave her kennel and she has had little problems - we were not so lucky in this instance - we will learn from it - just more another kick in the guts while we are down.

About Jetpets it could have been a sales ploy - nevertheless it would have cost a lot more going through a local AQIS approved vet here then going through their vet - the lady who was buying the pup decided to go direct with jetpets - it could have also been something under their contracts that they stick with their own approved vets that way they are not held liable for another outside vet??? not sure - we just followed what we were told, we too had never exported before and yep your absolutely right there, I wont be exporting anymore, not for a pet anyway, I should have gone with my gut and just sold him here, again just trying to keep everyone happy and I get knocked down for it... such is life...

Thanks for taking the time in helping me - really appreciate it

[ellz]

You'll probably find with Jetpets, as with many/most other shippers...they like to include the vet work as part of their own services because they can then control the "chain of events" and the paper trail that is generated for the process. This is normal, then if there is any fallout, they can justify their own actions and know EXACTLY what was done when, where and by whom.

[Partipaws]

Thanks Ellz - this is what I think they must of meant when they told us that they do not "recognise" these AQIS approved vets in our area. After further investigation with cost etc, we (us the breeders and the buyer) decided it was easier and cheaper to deal directly through Jetpets. I did look into all the requirements for exporting before looking at shipping agents and I just put in the "too hard" basket, so preferred someone who knew what they were doing just does it for me....so it was peace of mind knowing that all the organising, vet check and flights were all organised through one company.

[t-time]

Ditto what Ellz said - I have found Jetpets to be excellent with several international transports.

I would offer the full refund in this circumstance. Regardless of your personal financial state atm, FIND the money and get this woman out of your hair. It's an absolute tragedy from all sides.

In future if you do decide to export again, I get the buyers to pay Jetpets directly rather than transferring from their account to yours and then to the transport company.

[ellz]

Ditto to t-time!

When I sent Bad Alice to Japan, I used Mel at Dogtainers ACT and she was, in a word, BRILLIANT!!

But, so that the purchaser knew that it was all above board, once negotiations for the puppy itself were over, I involved Dogtainers and the purchaser (Shio) then dealt directly with Mel so that she knew that every cent she was being asked to pay was to somebody completely different and was all legitimate "expenses" involved with the export. She paid via CC direct to Dogtainers and everything was sweet.

The only down side was that I felt like I was walking on eggshells during the 40 day quarantine pre-export residency period and I swear NO puppy has ever spent more time "wrapped in cotton wool"!