Cesar Milan Discussion

[Rusky]

look I don't know how true all this is .. I mean I know there is a breakup, but I really laughed when I read this

http://www.themoneytimes.com/node/116318

the postman ? surely that can't be true, but a funny story anyway

[JulesP]

Pushing his wife to the ground not so funny.

[Shakti]

Pushing his wife to the ground????? Where was this reported?

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I'm not a fan, but that looks like BS to me. This is the most recent credible article i could find on him, and in some ways, it is a little scarier.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/family...article1704648/

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

i would like to know why this alfa role is so bad and why a lot of people dont like it ??( not for it, or against it)

I don't like it because it can be dangerous for the owner. If the dog recognises the handlers body language that leads to a alpha roll they may react then instead of when actually in the process of the alpha roll. It could react to body language which the dog thinks may lead to an alpha roll, if the handler doesn't realise this they could be caught unaware and not ready to protect themself. The same could happen to someone else handling them. When trainers say that it is a dogs way of disciplining each other that isn't correct.

When dogs perfom an "alpha roll" on each other, you will see that the losing dog always CHOOSES to submit, the alpha dog will very rarely grab the others dogs neck or scruff and throw it/ wrestle it to the floor.

I have noticed that with some dogs, my dog will only have to receive a look and she will be on her back, belly up

I also think that by rolling onto their back, the dog is only indicating they want to avoid a conflict in that particular situation. It doesn't necessarily mean they will have more respect for you forever. Respect is gained by trust and consistency.

sadly i know of at least one person who has been advised to alpha roll a dog for something as minor as rough play, where imo, simply removing the dog from the situation is all that is necessary.

I gotta agree with this - that a dog chooses to submit or it's not a submission. Although sometimes I feel it's more a "please be my friend and don't hurt me" than "you're the boss and I will do what I'm told". Not the same thing.

My brother hates my dog licking him, and she LOVES licking him. So he growed at her and raised a fist and she went straight upside down. And stayed that way all floppy like. Trying to get her right side up again - my brother described as "trying to pick up custard from the floor with your bare hands". It was me trying to get her to sit up. We were laughing so hard at that point. Note - my brother would never have hit my dog. And even if he'd tried - she's way too quick when it comes to getting out the way.

My dog, as a puppy, taught me that hitting a dog with a rolled up newspaper or tapping on the nose for bad behaviour is completely pointless, and rolled up newspapers make great chew toys. That's what you get with a dog bred to duck the kicks from angry cows. Instead, we played the "stay" game where she got treats for staying on the mat. My brother's dog liked that game too but was a bit slow to figure out that she only got a treat when she was on the mat and following me around didn't get her a treat. Ah well.

catherine.b - I put a bunch of links in earlier about why alpha rolls are bad - from internationally known professional dog trainers. Eg Ian Dunbar was one, The American Vet Society has an article on their website against it too. Forcing a dog upside down just freaks it out more, and you risk being attacked if it cannot go "flight" or "freeze" and chooses "fight" instead - it's not a reliable way to calm a dog or induce good behaviour.

[Zug Zug]

When I first read his books there were some things that really rang true with me.

The main thing I got out of it, and which I still wholeheartedly agree with, is:

1 - exercise

2 - discipline

3 - affection

That is, in order to improve their chances of being in a calm state of mind most dogs need exercise first and foremost, then discipline and last of all, affection.

I know he is most famous for the pack stuff, calm leader stuff. I see some good and some bad in that aspect of his method. I think a lot of people do need to learn how to take on the persona of a calm leader (myself included). It's not easy and not automatic for a LOT of people. And the alternative is often real frustration and sometimes very rough consequences for the dog.

But some of his training becomes very aggressive, and can be dangerous. So in that respect he loses me.

[Rusky]

I'm not a fan, but that looks like BS to me. This is the most recent credible article i could find on him, and in some ways, it is a little scarier.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/family...article1704648/

now that is scary and not funny at all ...oh dear

[m-j]

He is working with Yale University to develop a curriculum for school children that focuses on compassion, emotional intelligence and social skills “so kids will grow up and become pack leaders in the animal world as well as the human world.”

This bit from the http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/family...article1704648/ article makes me cringe. I hope he isn't using his dog pack/hierarchy ideas (many of which I don't agree with) I don't see his methods as compassionate or social, more like a dictatorship, which only worked a short time for Hitler and Saddam.

[Odin-Genie]

This si one video that sickened me, Emily's reactions are pretty much the same as Buster's. I spent a lot of effort trying to bring him out of his shell because I believe he was very shut down when younger. His DA has improved significantly. I can't imagine how much this would put him backwards. Its disgusting.

Sure Buster would probably calm down if I choked him to exhaustion aswell.

I ended up tears the first time I watched this, he's flooding her and he's not setting her up to succeed. She doesn't have a chance and I can't imagine whats going on in her head.

He seems good at shutting dogs down very quickly, and then encouraging them when they stop trying.

Dogs know we arn't dogs, if they did I would have a serious problem with Buster. They arn't all trying to dominate us, they are usually just doing what works for them.

Honestly, we invented the "Dog Whisperer Game" here and our dogs love it. We put them all in a down stay and then wander around them, everytime they move we yell "TSHH" and then wrestle them onto their back and yell "ALPHA ROLL!"

They think its great.

It sickened me too. I am not a dog trainer so can't comment on the usefulness of his methods with problem dogs. All I know is that anyone who trains like him is not coming anywhere near my dogs.

Also, I agree that a lot of people try and use his methods on perfectly well behaved dogs. Someone once suggested that I should regularly alpha roll my dog in the middle of the dog park while other dogs move around him to ensure he knows who is the boss I told that person to stay away from my dogs!!! My dog is a perfectly happy, non-reactive dog. I would've lost all trust with him if I had ever done something like that.

[Aso]

I'm not really sure if I can add anything of substance in regards to the pros & cons of Cesar Milan's training methods but I would like to say that we owe a lot to this guy in regards to educating us in basic "puppy" issues. Without his book "How to Raise the Perfect Puppy" we would have been in all sorts of trouble, and I'm not exaggerating. My partner & I have both been raised around dogs but have never had our own and were painfully unaware of the extent of our ignorance when it comes to raising dogs. I only bought this book because I recognised Cesar Milan from an episode I saw on TV and not because I was looking for a book on purpose. We thought, "how hard can it be?", idiots!

Here are a list of things we knew NOTHING about before reading this book, honestly:

* puppy farms: we were actually looking at pet shops and would have bought a puppy from one if there was one we liked at the time! We thought, OMG how handy! (idiots!)

* breeders: huh? what to look for in a breeder, contracts? huh?

* how to choose the right puppy: temperament, how active are they, etc ... (huh?) we originally wanted our puppy because we loved Hooch in the movie! luckily enough our chosen breed actually compliments our needs, but can you imagine?

* vets: how to tell if you have a good one ... what? aren't they all?

* feeding quality food: huh? surely it's okay if it can be sold, right?

* vaccinations:

* crate training: we thought they were cages and cruel, I don't know what we would've done without Tonka's crate.

and on, and on, and on. And all these before we even get the puppy! If anything else, I applaud Cesar Milan for being able to get the right message out there for dummies like us. Not only did his book give us invaluable information, it also taught us how to get the knowledge for ourselves.

Must be working, our Tonka is a happy healthy not-so-little puppy and we found this forum

- Cath

[Guest]

I think some of his methods are ok and have used a couple with success,I haven't watched him working live with dogs so don't have an oppinion as to some of his other methods,but isn't what makes a dog aggressive in the first place the way it is raised, by being teased by children and adults, and being ill treated,or am I just being naive here, and dogs can start being aggressive for no reason.

I don't believe in being cruel to any animal, but if his methods have saved a lot of dogs isn't that a good thing?

lablove

[The Ark]

Did anyone watch this week's episode of The Dog Whisperer? I think it was a fantastic episode, and showed how Cesar works in more recent times. I didn't see anything there that could possibly have been interpreted as cruel, and he used people around him (including the owners) as well as one of the calmer dogs at one house to help a dog that freaked out and jumped a fence every time his owner coughed. In working with one yappy little dog he also repeated several times that it is better if a dog offers a submissive position than if it is placed into one by a human (ie. better to wait and allow the dog to offer it than to jump in and alpha-roll it).

I think Cesar has refined and modified his methods along the way, as any good trainer will if they see a better way of doing things. My Natural Horsemanship instructor has done this over the 7 years I've known her, and will freely admit to changing her methods when she can clearly see that something else will work better, rather than digging her heels in and saying "this is how we've always done it!" just on principle. I have a lot of respect for someone who is flexible and sensible enough to learn and grow, and I think Cesar falls into that category (dons flame suit and backs away from thread now....... )

[aussielover]

Did anyone watch this week's episode of The Dog Whisperer? I think it was a fantastic episode, and showed how Cesar works in more recent times. I didn't see anything there that could possibly have been interpreted as cruel, and he used people around him (including the owners) as well as one of the calmer dogs at one house to help a dog that freaked out and jumped a fence every time his owner coughed. In working with one yappy little dog he also repeated several times that it is better if a dog offers a submissive position than if it is placed into one by a human (ie. better to wait and allow the dog to offer it than to jump in and alpha-roll it).

I think Cesar has refined and modified his methods along the way, as any good trainer will if they see a better way of doing things. My Natural Horsemanship instructor has done this over the 7 years I've known her, and will freely admit to changing her methods when she can clearly see that something else will work better, rather than digging her heels in and saying "this is how we've always done it!" just on principle. I have a lot of respect for someone who is flexible and sensible enough to learn and grow, and I think Cesar falls into that category (dons flame suit and backs away from thread now....... )

What channel is it on? i guess its not on free-to air?

I was impressed by the episode where he took a DA GSD to a local training club and the instructor there was doing some drive training with it and it seemed to be respondning very well, even ignoring other dogs. Cesar was very good in acknowledging the imprortance of reward/drive type trainig in this episode.

sadly we don';t have foxtel anymore so haven't been able to watch it for ages so maybe he has improved.

[erinonthefarm]

I am a recent Caesar watcher, I don't think I have seen him choke a dog yet? But I have noticed how much publicity he gives to the much maligned Pitt Bull. I appreciate anyone who works to change public opinion on targets of Breed Specific Legislation, oh and he seems to place the blame squarely on the owners for the dogs behaviour which is great. I am so sick of people saying "oh we tried so hard" and then packing the poor dog off to the pound.

Sometimes the world needs extreme people like him and Steve Irwin to get us thinking even if they are weirdos.

[nikitaken]

I have watched some of his DVDs and read his books. Most people that I know that disagreed with his theories, disliked how he pin dogs down which seems violent and forceful. And then they would hate everything he does all together, or even him as a person.

However I always remember from his very first season of the show, as well as his books, he reminded people that he is usually the last resort for dogs that had tried other help and unsuccessful and most of the time they are highly dangerous. Its a TV show so they only show the most 'dramatic' bits and the most 'hard to handle' cases, it may not be the same as the dogs we encounter every day. And also he had worked with dog trainers on many occasions whenever he feels certain 'dog-training' is appropriate for the rehabilitation. And he repeated that there are many many other methods/trainings out there that we can use to help us help the dog.

There are moments in his shows that I would think 'this is something that no one should do, its sooo dangerous!!' but then we need to keep in mind that he's not teaching us HOW to copy his action, he's a professional and he knows what he's doing.

I certainly dont praise him like a god, but I like how he says us as owners are usually the crucial part of our dogs' problems. By changing our behaviours and way of thinking may help our dogs become more balanced. We should remind ourselves to be calm and assertive all the time.

But I always have a question, do dogs really feel the 'energy'? My bf never believes there's such a thing which is invisible...

[nikitaken]

I am a recent Caesar watcher, I don't think I have seen him choke a dog yet? But I have noticed how much publicity he gives to the much maligned Pitt Bull. I appreciate anyone who works to change public opinion on targets of Breed Specific Legislation, oh and he seems to place the blame squarely on the owners for the dogs behaviour which is great. I am so sick of people saying "oh we tried so hard" and then packing the poor dog off to the pound.

Sometimes the world needs extreme people like him and Steve Irwin to get us thinking even if they are weirdos.

Yes I love how he dares to tell the owners to start realizing the fact that WE are part of why our dogs are in trouble. I love Daddy the pitbull =) he's one gentleman...sad that he's gone. I used to see dogs like pitbulls as dangerous killer dogs, but I do have a different view on that now.

[Aidan]

But I always have a question, do dogs really feel the 'energy'? My bf never believes there's such a thing which is invisible...

Can you think of a simpler, more plausible explanation? If so, then that is probably the best explanation.

[jazawayaya]

My last trainer who actually fixed the problems with my dog and taught me the key areas to concentrate on didn't alpha roll my dog, but did physically correct him head on as Cesar does and was able to settle him after two corrections which to me was like magic compared with my previous trainers using other methods. My dog was a total nightmare around other dogs and now although I watch him and will probably never trust him completely, he's fine with other dogs and is often quite sociable and freindly, but he has never since showed an aggressive response after training in Cesar like methods.

I had almost the EXACT same experience :D

I love watching the show... I never try to put anything he does to work because I am not a professional (also I no longer have a crazy dog). I have watched many many episodes and can only recall once or twice where he 'choked the dog till it ran out of air'- I don't think that’s something he does all the time.

He really sticks up for breeds like pitt bulls that have a bad reputation. I remember in one of his episodes he was on the street asking people what dog they were most scared of and then went through a little info about each one showing that the breeds aren’t dangerous its the people who handle them basically. That’s the best message ever to get across.

He also does a lot with charity and highlights causes etc.

To me it is just an entertaining show.... and that’s all its supposed to be? that’s why there is a disclaimer on every episode (I think even a few times in every episode) saying 'do not attempt without a professional or something of the like...

He is quite funny as well makes me laugh

[Kelpie-i]

But I always have a question, do dogs really feel the 'energy'? My bf never believes there's such a thing which is invisible...

Can you think of a simpler, more plausible explanation? If so, then that is probably the best explanation.

I think they do. There have been more than a few occasions where i have gone to a client's house to do a consult and the dogs stay right away from me for the entire consult. On each occasion, the owners state that their dogs have never done that before with any of their visitors.....and I have not done anything, other than enter the house. Could the dogs possibly be feeling my 'no nonsense' approach.... my stance, the way I hold myself and portray my energy??

Not to mention sheep herding too......sheep will usually let you know if your dog has any presence/energy or not?

[Erny]

But I always have a question, do dogs really feel the 'energy'? My bf never believes there's such a thing which is invisible...

Can you think of a simpler, more plausible explanation? If so, then that is probably the best explanation.

I think they do.

I also think they do. Recently working with a client and her dog who is fear aggressive to other dogs. Her dog would react whenever the owner walked her dog past any house which housed a dog. One of the things I coached the owner in doing was to walk as though on a mission; to avoid being hesitant; to walk as though the other dog was not behind the fence and that this was not a trouble spot. IOW, be calm and assertive. In an instant, her dog stopped reacting and walked with her. It was text book. I wish I had it on video.