Cesar Milan Discussion

[corvus]

But I always have a question, do dogs really feel the 'energy'? My bf never believes there's such a thing which is invisible...

Can you think of a simpler, more plausible explanation? If so, then that is probably the best explanation.

I think they do. There have been more than a few occasions where i have gone to a client's house to do a consult and the dogs stay right away from me for the entire consult. On each occasion, the owners state that their dogs have never done that before with any of their visitors.....and I have not done anything, other than enter the house. Could the dogs possibly be feeling my 'no nonsense' approach.... my stance, the way I hold myself and portray my energy??

Not to mention sheep herding too......sheep will usually let you know if your dog has any presence/energy or not?

I think it's all in the body language. We do a lot of things that we're not aware of, but animals are very good at noticing tiny differences. It is my belief that muscle tension and the balance of bodyweight is of universal significance to animals. I also think confidence is profoundly important and is displayed in body language and the way one moves.

[Erny]

I think it's all in the body language. We do a lot of things that we're not aware of, but animals are very good at noticing tiny differences. It is my belief that muscle tension and the balance of bodyweight is of universal significance to animals. I also think confidence is profoundly important and is displayed in body language and the way one moves.

Scent would also play a part, I'm sure.

[Aidan]

I don't firmly rule out what might be regarded as "paranormal" phenomenon, but I would have to say that body language and other human behaviours would be the simpler, more plausible explanation for me. I suspect Cesar Millan may even be referring to this. When you change your internal state, you can have a profound effect on your external state and dogs can sense this through normal sensory processes. It seems reasonable (to me) to refer to this as "energy".

[The Ark]

I don't firmly rule out what might be regarded as "paranormal" phenomenon, but I would have to say that body language and other human behaviours would be the simpler, more plausible explanation for me. I suspect Cesar Millan may even be referring to this. When you change your internal state, you can have a profound effect on your external state and dogs can sense this through normal sensory processes. It seems reasonable (to me) to refer to this as "energy".

I think you're right, Aidan. I'm pretty sure there is nothing "paranormal" in Cesar's notion of energy - it is purely and simply the way a living thing "is", ie. the way it carries itself, sees itself in relation to its environment etc.

[Kelpie-i]

I don't firmly rule out what might be regarded as "paranormal" phenomenon, but I would have to say that body language and other human behaviours would be the simpler, more plausible explanation for me. I suspect Cesar Millan may even be referring to this. When you change your internal state, you can have a profound effect on your external state and dogs can sense this through normal sensory processes. It seems reasonable (to me) to refer to this as "energy"

Isn't "energy" just that??!! I don't think I've ever heard Cesar refer to energy as anything to do with paranormal phenemenon. Energy is a projection of one's state of being...which includes the strength of your presence, your stance (which is body posturing and language) and your inner feelings....and for dogs you would include smell. Energy works by attracting all of your sensory functions.

[Diva]

Energy works by attracting all of your sensory functions.

what does 'attracting all of your sensory functions' mean?

[Jigsaw]

I saw part of his show last night on Foxtel and I think he's changing some of his methods. There was a JRT who reacted (running into kitchen and barking) to the dishwasher going, CM initially used a collar to check his reaction, but I missed the next couple of minutes when I came back in he was giving the dog food when the dishwasher was going. The next dog after that was a lab with a fear of shiny lino floors. The dog was allowed to go at its own pace following the owner and when the dog stopped moving and started to shut down, he (CM) put his fingers under the collar and just moved the dog forward a step or two. The dog was rewarded with his toy when he got through the house. Very different to what I saw a few years ago with a dog with similar fear that was flooded.

[Kelpie-i]

Energy works by attracting all of your sensory functions.

what does 'attracting all of your sensory functions' mean?

Firstly, I refer to 'energy as being a state of presence and not a paranormal sprit or something freaky like that.

When someone walks into the room, which of your senses is the first to notice that someone new has just entered??...could be your sight, sound or even smell. You will immediately know if he/she is a person of importance or not by observing (with one or more of your sensory functions) his/her energy. The person's energy has attracted your sensory functions. Hope that makes sense!!

[Diva]

Energy works by attracting all of your sensory functions.

what does 'attracting all of your sensory functions' mean?

Firstly, I refer to 'energy as being a state of presence and not a paranormal sprit or something freaky like that.

When someone walks into the room, which of your senses is the first to notice that someone new has just entered??...could be your sight, sound or even smell. You will immediately know if he/she is a person of importance or not by observing (with one or more of your sensory functions) his/her energy. The person's energy has attracted your sensory functions. Hope that makes sense!!

Thanks, I thought you were saying more than that. But I get your point.

off topic, but I don't quite agree with the bolded bit for many human power relationships. I have dealt with a number of truly powerful people in different roles. Many are very low presence/low energy and you'd never notice them in a room unless they chose for you to. Get a bunch with that style in a room together and sometimes it feels like a contest as to who can be the most low key/low presence, they ramp it all down as a sign of status and authority, not up. Not all important people do that of course, but neither do all of them draw your senses.

Edited November 12, 2010 by Diva

[cowgirl]

I personally really like Cesar's methods and watch all the time.

I do not have problems with any of my dogs, but one is overly excitable and can lunge at other dogs while out walking and looks quite aggressive to the uninitiated. I am using Cesar's methods and they are working really well. I agree with the comments about calm-submissive. This is the only state that Louis will respond properly and appropriately. It just makes sense to me.

Would I attempt these methods with a seriously aggressive dog such as the ones on the show... no, I am not an expert and don't claim to be. Kudos to Cesar for even attempting that one.

I do have one thing to add though that I didn't see mentioned. Most, if not all of the seriously troubled dogs were not 'treated' in just one episode. Their rehabilitation was over a period of many months. I don't see any quick fixes for the benefit of TV there.

Just my thoughts.

[Kajtek]

Witnessing applied animal behaviourists and trainers with qualifications and experience do their stuff would be fantastic.....a Patricia McConnell show would be awesome!

You can get dvds of her seminars They are great viewing

Her book "For the Love of a Dog" should be mandatory for all dog owners (I wish...).

I have so much respect and admiration for this woman.

-------------------

Forgot the topic - I don't like Milan's methods.

Edited January 7, 2011 by HonBun

[Tubbles]

I really like Cesar Milan. Especially his philosophy on exercise, discipline and affection.

But I do not limit myself to one viewpoint, nor would I attempt to try some of his methods.

I tend to expose myself to lots of different training methods and incorporate what I perceive to be those most relevant to me.

I have often noticed at some dog obedience clubs that a misbehaving dog can find itself on the fringes of a group or asked to leave altogether.

Some owners are even advised to consider putting their dog down.

I love the fact that Cesar is willing and apparently capable of working with these types of dogs .

I also love the role that Cesar is playing in highlighting the plight of rescue dogs and letting people know about puppy mills (or as I prefer to call them puppy prison camps)

[Staranais]

LOL that this thread has come up again.

I do have to wonder where these instant experts like Cesar Millan (and many other trainers) spring from. It sounds like (so far as anyone knows) he's never apprenticed to another trainer or gone through a dog training & behaviour course?

So how does he suddenly know how to best train dogs? And how does he know that he wouldn't get better results using other methods if he'd never studied them before making up his own way of doing things?

Imagine if a plumber or hairdresser or doctor wanted to start working without doing an apprenticeship or a training course, since they'd decided they were a natural "tap whisperer" or a "hair whisperer" or "surgery whisperer", and just made up their own way of doing things!

[Pretty Miss Emma]

It's funny that there seems to be a bit of Cesar popping up everywhere at the moment.

Personally, I think that he has the potential to reach a lot of people with what he does, and just hope it is for good and not to the detriment of the dogs. I also think with most trainers that they should be able to present different ways to do things (dog training is not a one size fits all type of thing). There probably are some really good trainers out there that don't necessarily have qualifications (the few quals that are out there!), but many in this situation I think are also usually on their way to qual to give the people they work with some confidence in their ability and so they have a background of formal education in this area.

Certainly I am in a situation where I do some volunteer work in training, and when I have people asking for advice and private help and what do I charge I can't bring myself to go any further than this and recommend them to qualified trainers I know. I'm looking at doing one of the courses when the finances allow, and I have been through a pretty comprehensive non-formal course - but to me that isn't enough.

There is so much knowledge out there and courses available, so why not do one if you are working in the field.

Anyway, I got slightly off track there!

Something I was just today sent that will be of interest to those who may question Cesar's practices, link is below (assuming it works!). If you adore Cesar and think he is the be all and end all you may not like some of the things quoted in the article but it may give you some more insight as to why people question his methods. Part of my reason for sharing this is because it includes comments from people with some research behind them, not only anecdotes. And yes I do think anecdotes are good but it is easy to pick and choose which ones to use.

I really think, dog training should be done from a toolbox where there are many options and you choose the best for the dog and the problem, and preferrably where humane alternative are considered before anything else and the ante gets upped as required rather than starting at the other end of the spectrum.

http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html

[Gayle.]

LOL that this thread has come up again.

I do have to wonder where these instant experts like Cesar Millan (and many other trainers) spring from. It sounds like (so far as anyone knows) he's never apprenticed to another trainer or gone through a dog training & behaviour course?

So how does he suddenly know how to best train dogs? And how does he know that he wouldn't get better results using other methods if he'd never studied them before making up his own way of doing things?

Imagine if a plumber or hairdresser or doctor wanted to start working without doing an apprenticeship or a training course, since they'd decided they were a natural "tap whisperer" or a "hair whisperer" or "surgery whisperer", and just made up their own way of doing things!

If you read his background you'll find out he learned a lot from his grandfather, but also by quietly observing dogs and other animals as he grew up. He isn't an instant expert, he didn't suddenly have all this knowledge as a middle-aged adult, he just became well known because of his dealings with TV and movie people (and their dogs) in Hollywood, and his resultant TV show.

[Staranais]

I don't think a great trainer necessarily needs to have done a formal training course either, Pretty Miss Emma.

But on the other hand, I do think that if someone invents a method of dog training without even investigating what other trainers are doing or intensively studying all the already available methods and seeing them demonstrated, they're doing themselves (and their clients) a huge disservice. Even if their method works OK, they can't know if it's the best or if it has substantial gaps if they don't see what everyone else is doing.

Edited January 8, 2011 by Staranais

[Pretty Miss Emma]

I don't think a great trainer necessarily needs to have done a formal training course either, Pretty Miss Emma.

But on the other hand, I do think that if someone invents a method of dog training without even investigating what other trainers are doing or intensively studying all the already available methods and seeing them demonstrated, they're doing themselves (and their clients) a huge disservice. Even if their method works OK, they can't know if it's the best or if it has substantial gaps if they don't see what everyone else is doing.

Completely agree. I feel it's the sort of field where you need to have as much information as possible and then pick and choose the bits you feel are best for the dog/situation. One thing I have really admired in some of the instructors I've had has been the ability to say "This is how I'd do it, but go and speak to so and so as they do it differently and that might work better for your dog/you." Just like with people, each dog is different and we owe it to them to tailor the approach.

[Staranais]

I'd agree. I immediately lose respect for trainers if I find they don't have any clue how other methods work, especially if they are promoting their method as better.

I particularly remember one trainer I consulted about my last dog who bad mouthed clicker trainers at length - but after asking a few questions, it became clear to me that he hadn't even a basic idea of how the clicker was used. Him having such strong opinions about something he clearly hadn't researched just made me doubt everything else he told me.