Cesar Milan Discussion

[SpecTraining]

ST:

I have had many supposedly experienced trainers of extreme dogs that can't handle a spirited Belgian Malinios or a GSD with some civil drive, let alone teach someone how to train them.

Is "spirited" a euphemism for "need to know the handler is prepared to kill them"?

No bloody wonder some security dogs attack the handler at the first sign of weakness.

I don't know the training backgrounds of security dogs that have attacked their handlers although there has been a few occasions I have heard about it happening. None of mine have ever attacked their handlers and I don't expect that they would either.

[Cosmolo]

Do not watch this if you are easily upset-

Spec training- look at the video " a dog fight starts". This is Trinity after 3 months with Caesar during which time she was going on consults with him, socialising with lots of different dogs without issue. The video shows the first time they try to reintroduce the owners.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/chan.../Full-Episodes/

[Aidan]

This thread was about Cesar Milan techniques Aidan, by your responses it seems you think the thread is about you for some reason

You were referencing other trainers ("they don't test the dog properly"), not me specifically. I was just wondering if successfully putting dogs back into family homes with kids and dogs seemed like reasonable proof of efficacy to you?

[Quickasyoucan]

Do not watch this if you are easily upset-

Spec training- look at the video " a dog fight starts". This is Trinity after 3 months with Caesar during which time she was going on consults with him, socialising with lots of different dogs without issue. The video shows the first time they try to reintroduce the owners.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/chan.../Full-Episodes/

I did watch that episode though and Cesar tried to convince them to leave Trinity with him and accept an easier dog from his pack. They insisted on keeping her and with the follow up were moving forward.

Look I don't agree with a lot of the detail of what he does, but I don't think it is a case of switch off the cameras and off he goes. I think there is follow up we don't see everything that happens behind the scenes. There are a couple of programs I have watched where he has also swapped people with dogs more suitable for them. I think he does recognise handler limitations.

I think in a perfect world every trainer/behaviourist etc would be following up on every dog, but what professional has the time to do that, they would have no time for new clients, they rely on their clients to come back to them and success is only as good as the effort the owners are prepared to put in. I know anecdotally of people who have been to excellent trainers, but they have let things slide and have not followed up and things have remained the same. I don't think any trainer could put their hand on their heart and say every dog they work with has been a success story, don't see why it should be any different for Cesar.

As PF said earlier full marks for raising people's awareness, for me not so full marks for the detail of every episode...

[Nekhbet]

Has Caesar proven his methods work though? Are these dogs actually safe after his rehab? Spec training in all seriousness you should watch a Caesar episode where there are 2 pitbulls living together that fight- one of them goes for rehab with Caesar and does brilliantly until the owners are reintroduced. It is the perfect example of what i am referring to.

But that video Cosmolo did not propose that it would 'fix' the dog. He takes them to his centre to do some groundwork with them then future work occurs with the owners. The owners have had a lot of poor conditioning with this dog and it's so automatic that a month afterwards all it takes is their presence for the dog to latch onto whatever is close after stiffening up. Considering the breeds they didnt do as much damage as I expected.

You could questions anyones methods. Is any dog safe after 'rehab'? Is any dog safe at all? A dog is an animal and it comes down to management. If the owners are not capable of good management long term, be it they cannot or will not, then the dog cannot be considered safe in their hands. I too have owners who's dogs have bitten or fought before remain in their homes, because their owners can now manage the dogs safely. Owners that cannot manage we work from there. Last owners who could not manage their dog and to whom I could not guarentee safety around their grand children handed over the dog to me. The dog is now in a home with an extremely experienced breeder who uses the dog as a companion for his others. Dog is happy, owners and their family are safe.

[Aidan]

You could questions anyones methods. Is any dog safe after 'rehab'? Is any dog safe at all? A dog is an animal and it comes down to management. If the owners are not capable of good management long term, be it they cannot or will not, then the dog cannot be considered safe in their hands.

I agree, but others on this thread have said things along the lines of "It's not all about teaching people how to train their dog and a dog doesn't have to be owner trained to eliminate unwanted behaviours if the professional trainer is good enough." Which specifically states that the trainer can eliminate all the problems if they are "good enough" regardless of the owners skill level. I think the video quite amply demonstrates (if we are to believe that CM is "good enough") that this is not the case.

[Cosmolo]

My point with that video is not about Caesars methods, cures or anything else. I am actually not having a go at him at all with that video. It is simply a really good example of how behaviour can change when owners or other factors are reintroduced into the picture. I am trying to dispell the notion that if you are a good enough trainer you can train the dog, hand it back and have it behave reliably for its owner at that point.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Cosmolo

[Keshwar]

I don't know the training backgrounds of security dogs that have attacked their handlers although there has been a few occasions I have heard about it happening. None of mine have ever attacked their handlers and I don't expect that they would either.

Just out of interest and to clarify your experience - how many security dogs have you trained?

[BMAK]

There is a lot of scope between only giving the dog food and choking the dog til it passes out because you had to show the dog 'you were prepared to kill it to make it submit'

< not sure if that bottom bit is for me in responce but, i wasnt the one who said the kill to submit i was the one who said you need to gain respect and trust NOT "you let the dog know you can kill it " he he

[newfsie]

Yes I would not have been able to bring my 14 month 50kg people and dog aggressive recue newfie around with just food and cuddles.

She needed to know the rules.......

Why the assumption that it's either alpha roll and choke your dog until it gives up, or food and cuddles? Who here is saying that dogs shouldn't learn the rules? Why the insinuation that if you use food or praise with aggressive dogs you aren't also able to implementing boundaries or rules? I have no problem with giving corrections, using tools like prongs or e-collars etc or giving dog boundaries but some of the things Cesar does makes me feel quite ill.

Besides, many people would not be strong enough to choke or alpha roll a 50kg aggressive newfie until it gave up (or just plain ran out of breath).

ETA: I find it amusing that anyone who doesn't 110% support Cesar is lumped into the new age food and cuddles, never ever punish your dog crowd.

I agree with you, I am saying i could not have done it only with food and cuddles..I never alpha rolled my rescue, girl. I did use the check chain, but again never a choke-down. One of our main problems was she would not take food from us initially.....Only from her bowl. But we had to be extremely firm and exact with how we treated her to get her to fit in with our other dogs. I am sort of saying I agree with some of his stuff and not all. All my dogs from pups are trained with positive reinforcement. But I believe that different methods are to be used for different dogs.

The other thing is I am always very aware of this dog around people and other dogs....She seems fine and gets on well with other dogs and people now, but I always watch her. We have done a lot of work with her and she is socialized a lot with people and dogs every week, but it is always in the back of your mind.

I definitely am someone who uses the as you call new age, but also the other systems that work

Edited October 8, 2010 by newfsie

[m-j]

i would like to know why this alfa role is so bad and why a lot of people dont like it ??( not for it, or against it)

I don't like it because it can be dangerous for the owner. If the dog recognises the handlers body language that leads to a alpha roll they may react then instead of when actually in the process of the alpha roll. It could react to body language which the dog thinks may lead to an alpha roll, if the handler doesn't realise this they could be caught unaware and not ready to protect themself. The same could happen to someone else handling them. When trainers say that it is a dogs way of disciplining each other that isn't correct.

[aussielover]

i would like to know why this alfa role is so bad and why a lot of people dont like it ??( not for it, or against it)

I don't like it because it can be dangerous for the owner. If the dog recognises the handlers body language that leads to a alpha roll they may react then instead of when actually in the process of the alpha roll. It could react to body language which the dog thinks may lead to an alpha roll, if the handler doesn't realise this they could be caught unaware and not ready to protect themself. The same could happen to someone else handling them. When trainers say that it is a dogs way of disciplining each other that isn't correct.

When dogs perfom an "alpha roll" on each other, you will see that the losing dog always CHOOSES to submit, the alpha dog will very rarely grab the others dogs neck or scruff and throw it/ wrestle it to the floor.

I have noticed that with some dogs, my dog will only have to receive a look and she will be on her back, belly up :D

I also think that by rolling onto their back, the dog is only indicating they want to avoid a conflict in that particular situation. It doesn't necessarily mean they will have more respect for you forever. Respect is gained by trust and consistency.

sadly i know of at least one person who has been advised to alpha roll a dog for something as minor as rough play, where imo, simply removing the dog from the situation is all that is necessary.

[Donegal]

I think Cesar Milan does a good job with aggressive dogs and I wished in my case with one of my dog agro dogs that I had chosen a trainer who can deal with the problem head on as Cesar does instead of the three trainers I intitially hired that didn't help my problem much at all. My first three trainers didn't do physical corrections and although we achieved good focus clicker training with treat rewards without distractions of other dogs, when mine saw another dog, none of this positive conditioning worked and he wasn't interested, just intent on becoming agro towards the other dog.

My last trainer who actually fixed the problems with my dog and taught me the key areas to concentrate on didn't alpha roll my dog, but did physically correct him head on as Cesar does and was able to settle him after two corrections which to me was like magic compared with my previous trainers using other methods. My dog was a total nightmare around other dogs and now although I watch him and will probably never trust him completely, he's fine with other dogs and is often quite sociable and freindly, but he has never since showed an aggressive response after training in Cesar like methods.

[Aidan3]

My last trainer who actually fixed the problems with my dog and taught me the key areas to concentrate on didn't alpha roll my dog, but did physically correct him head on as Cesar does and was able to settle him after two corrections which to me was like magic compared with my previous trainers using other methods.

Welcome to the forum, Donegal. Nice first post. Your sentiments echo exactly those of at least one other current member.

[Donegal]

My last trainer who actually fixed the problems with my dog and taught me the key areas to concentrate on didn't alpha roll my dog, but did physically correct him head on as Cesar does and was able to settle him after two corrections which to me was like magic compared with my previous trainers using other methods.

Welcome to the forum, Donegal. Nice first post. Your sentiments echo exactly those of at least one other current member.

That's my experience with my dog agro Amstaff and the first time in my life I have had to deal with aggression. I didn't raise my Amstaff any different to any of my others and for some reason unkown to me, he just developed a hate for other dogs at around 5 months old, strange dogs that is, not my other two older dogs, he's fine with them as I guess my other two are his friends. So for my dog, the Cesar style training worked a treat which got his mind off the other dog and snapped him out of the agro state to be able to use positive conditioning on him from there. The other trainer's methods on my dog, could never seem to break down his attention for other dogs or reduce the distance between them and him where he would react. Nothing seemed to ever overide his focus on another dog and it was like once a method of correction was used to get his mind off the other dog, then we were able to move forward in his training, but until then it was like a loosing battle.

[huski]

My last trainer who actually fixed the problems with my dog and taught me the key areas to concentrate on didn't alpha roll my dog, but did physically correct him head on as Cesar does and was able to settle him after two corrections which to me was like magic compared with my previous trainers using other methods.

Welcome to the forum, Donegal. Nice first post. Your sentiments echo exactly those of at least one other current member.

And from SA too! Funny.

There are a lot of people who use corrections without using them like Cesar does. There's more option in training than using a clicker (or food and cuddles) and applying corrections like Cesar does.

[lovemesideways]

Rubbish. I know dogs that have been very well trained by professionals and behave brilliantly in that persons direct presence. Remove the trainer and the inconsistencies, ability and skill of the owner ALL come into play PLUS the dogs prior learning. Don't ever underestimate the effects of prior learning and situation specific responses- situations involving the owner. I did once and one of my dogs nearly paid the price for my (and another trainers) mistake with her life.

Can't recall too many blind people training guide dogs Cosmolo, or too many guide dogs fall apart when beyond the trainers presence as one example. Yes, poorly trained dogs with inadequate foundation can exhibit what you have explained I agree, it happens.

You do know that guide dogs aren't just given to the new owner "full trained" right?

After 20 or so weeks of full on daily training, (if they pass) they are then matched with a handler. There is then another month or 2 of handler training on how to command the dog, care for it, ect. Plus I believe weekly check ups for the first 6 months.

[Aidan3]

I didn't raise my Amstaff any different to any of my others and for some reason unkown to me, he just developed a hate for other dogs at around 5 months old

How strange! Is he a purebread Amstaff?

Another show you might enjoy is "Dog Town", also by National Geographic. They seem to get a lot of Amstaffs and pitties through the shelter there, ex-fighting dogs. They took the least adoptable of the Michael Vick dogs, for example. You should check it out, some really nice dogs.

[Donegal]

My last trainer who actually fixed the problems with my dog and taught me the key areas to concentrate on didn't alpha roll my dog, but did physically correct him head on as Cesar does and was able to settle him after two corrections which to me was like magic compared with my previous trainers using other methods.

Welcome to the forum, Donegal. Nice first post. Your sentiments echo exactly those of at least one other current member.

And from SA too! Funny.

There are a lot of people who use corrections without using them like Cesar does. There's more option in training than using a clicker (or food and cuddles) and applying corrections like Cesar does.

So what does it matter if it's done in Cesar style or not when the dog is behaving the way you want it to?????. All I am saying is that I had three different trainers use clicker and treats on my dog to cure his dog agro and the 4th trainer looked to be using a Cesar like approach and issued corrections when the dog focused on another dog. We trained with the other methods for 14 months and my dog was heaps better in general obedience, but it didn't stop the dog agro where my last trainer did stop it and got him pretty good in 3 weeks, like 6 sessions later he is awesomly improved over what had happened over 14 months. There maybe other options, but I didn't have that opportunity and really I didn't care as long as someone could provide me with a solution.

[m-j]

Another thing I find odd about Cesar is that in the episodes I have seen ( have only one 5 hour tape that I have watched) not once were his dogs pleased to see him. They didn't come up and greet him like dogs do, seemed strange to me. Possibly they could have been avoiding starting a confrontation, but their body language didn't indicate that, it was like he was nothing to them.