Cesar Milan Discussion

[Cosmolo]

This talk about "if you had worked with aggressive dogs you would understand and agree" is rubbish. We have worked with a number of extreme dogs and don't agree with intentional use of air blocking as a training exercise. Everyone is entitled to their own opionion and it doesn't make them part of any particular crowd OR lacking in experience.

I'd be interested to know the answer to the follow up question too Staranais.

[aussielover]

I believe that while Cesar's methods may make the dog "submissive" to him, the dog may not naturally transfer that submission to anyone else.

Dog are not stupid, they know what they can get away with- it may vary for different people. I see this almost everyday, even in my own home. If you subscribe to dominance theory- Top dog is not necessarily always top dog- subordinate animals may challenge if they sense a weakness in the leader. Whilst they may be unlikely to challenge Cesar himself, I think there is a fair chance that at some point, they are likely to challenge the owners. I am also interested to see figures of his long term sucess rates

[Quickasyoucan]

What exactly is Cesar Milan's background? Is he ex-police or ex-MWD trainer or something similar?

And, where do the dogs he treats ends up? Has anyone done a follow up study to see his long term success rates?

Sorry if these are questions everyone else knows the answer to, but I don't know a heck of a lot about the guy.

I believe he came into the US as an illegal immigrant having gained a bit of a local name for himself as the "dog guy" in his village, with his instinctual ability to deal with dogs which I think he credits to his grandfather (?).

His background is dog grooming in the US, I think with a bit of training and self-education.

No quals that I know of.

I agree long term follow up would be interesting as, like with other trainers/behaviourists, the real work has got to be the follow-through by the owners, unless they have radically changed their behaviours the risk of recidivism would be great IMO.

Edited October 7, 2010 by Quickasyoucan

[Aidan]

Some dogs need to learn that the handler can kill them if required which in some cases is the ONLY way that the dog will learn enough respect to stop it's fighting challenges.

So where do you go next, Garry? The dog is now aware that you can kill him, he no longer tries to bite you (the trainer). Has he learned not to bite everyone? Has he learned not to bite children, or other dogs? What about off-leash? Does he have less motivation to try and bite others?

What is it that CM isn't showing us and that you haven't explained here?

[aussielover]

Some dogs need to learn that the handler can kill them if required which in some cases is the ONLY way that the dog will learn enough respect to stop it's fighting challenges.

So where do you go next, Garry? The dog is now aware that you can kill him, he no longer tries to bite you (the trainer). Has he learned not to bite everyone? Has he learned not to bite children, or other dogs? What about off-leash? Does he have less motivation to try and bite others?

What is it that CM isn't showing us and that you haven't explained here?

I don't think a dog that has to know the handler can kill them in order for them to respect, is well suited for a pet.

Most people do not want to almost kill their pet dog in order to gain respect.

Many people may not even be capable of doing this.

Sometimes the best option for the owner is to rehome to a working home or sadly, PTS.

[Aidan]

Some dogs need to learn that the handler can kill them if required which in some cases is the ONLY way that the dog will learn enough respect to stop it's fighting challenges.

So where do you go next, Garry? The dog is now aware that you can kill him, he no longer tries to bite you (the trainer). Has he learned not to bite everyone? Has he learned not to bite children, or other dogs? What about off-leash? Does he have less motivation to try and bite others?

What is it that CM isn't showing us and that you haven't explained here?

I don't think a dog that has to know the handler can kill them in order for them to respect, is well suited for a pet.

Most people do not want to almost kill their pet dog in order to gain respect.

Many people may not even be capable of doing this.

Sometimes the best option for the owner is to rehome to a working home or sadly, PTS.

Let's just go with it, though, and say we have a dog whose behaviour is more than 3 standard deviations from the norm, and the owner is actually physically and mentally capable of doing this, has no children, no other pets etc I'm interested in what comes next, or if there is an opinion out there that deems these dogs to be "safe" after being choked into submission?

[Kavik]

Does Cesar recommend the owners air block their dogs or alpha roll them if they display problem behaviours after he has done the initial work and left?

Edited October 8, 2010 by Kavik

[SpecTraining]

Not too many dogs will take on a subject they can't beat and rehabilitation works in the exact opposite to confidence building used in protection training. The problem with methods that doesn't teach the dog respect of power, is that although softer methods can work to a degree, the dog ALWAYS has aggression up it's sleeve and will use aggression if need be. The dog has to learn that ANY aggression results in a major loss and at times, the more aversive and unpleasant for the particular dog the better and the alternative is PTS because the dog is too dangerous and unpredictable without learning clear definition and consequence.

And again, the point being made here is not that you can't rehab a dog if you are sufficiently skilled and physically capable. The point is that many dogs are owned by people who are NOT physically or mentally capable of the things Milan does. Some dogs are always going to go wind up dead because there are not enough average homes for dogs who behave, much less highly skilled, well resourced and capable homes for dogs who don't.

Many owners don't have any training skills being the reason they hire professional trainers to sort out issues with their dog, but it often happens that the supposed trainer they select doesn't have the experience and skill to correct the issues either and condemns the dog to mask their inabilities. There are extreme cases of dog and owner mismatches especially people who are physically impaired, but the dog in most cases can be rehabilitated by a professional trainer to allow an impaired owner to handle them. It's not all about teaching people how to train their dog and a dog doesn't have to be owner trained to eliminate unwanted behaviours if the professional trainer is good enough.

[Cosmolo]

Rubbish. I know dogs that have been very well trained by professionals and behave brilliantly in that persons direct presence. Remove the trainer and the inconsistencies, ability and skill of the owner ALL come into play PLUS the dogs prior learning. Don't ever underestimate the effects of prior learning and situation specific responses- situations involving the owner. I did once and one of my dogs nearly paid the price for my (and another trainers) mistake with her life.

[BMAK]

I wish Victoria Stilwell (its me or the dog) had more of a tv presence in Australia so owners could at least see it from the positive side as well. Her ways wont get the owner bitten and the dog might even enjoy being trained (unlike Caesars dogs)

food reinforcement can only go so far if a dog is focus im sure a bickie isnt going to stop him from biting,

not always postitive reinforcement works for a 100% red zone 30 kg or above dog

i like her methods but i have seen her advise people to put there dog down because it bit people i know family comes first but, cesar has proven multiple multiple times that his way works for dogs that have no resort left.

majority of what he does is common sense, i like cesar but his methods are used when there are no resorts left.

if it works why not use the alfa role ?

i would rather that! then have a dog that would bite someone or another dog if i couldnt control it.

he does advise people not to use his methods if you told someone to touch/poke there dog 99% would not do it correctly and then decide his method doesnt work when they dont know how to correctly administer it."he did tell you to leave it for proffessionals"

i would like to know why this alfa role is so bad and why a lot of people dont like it ??( not for it, or against it)

[BMAK]

What exactly is Cesar Milan's background? Is he ex-police or ex-MWD trainer or something similar?

And, where do the dogs he treats ends up? Has anyone done a follow up study to see his long term success rates?

Sorry if these are questions everyone else knows the answer to, but I don't know a heck of a lot about the guy.

I believe he came into the US as an illegal immigrant having gained a bit of a local name for himself as the "dog guy" in his village, with his instinctual ability to deal with dogs which I think he credits to his grandfather (?).

His background is dog grooming in the US, I think with a bit of training and self-education.

No quals that I know of.

I agree long term follow up would be interesting as, like with other trainers/behaviourists, the real work has got to be the follow-through by the owners, unless they have radically changed their behaviours the risk of recidivism would be great IMO.

p.s edited to say i thought respect came from calm assertive pack energy? not making the dog fear you by him knowing you can kill him. also its the owner that has to follow up on the trainers @ SpecTraining

i think he was a dog walker not a groomer haha couldnt imagine him being one

Edited October 8, 2010 by catherine.b

[SpecTraining]

This talk about "if you had worked with aggressive dogs you would understand and agree" is rubbish. We have worked with a number of extreme dogs and don't agree with intentional use of air blocking as a training exercise. Everyone is entitled to their own opionion and it doesn't make them part of any particular crowd OR lacking in experience.

I'd be interested to know the answer to the follow up question too Staranais.

Not everyone's level of "extreme" is the same Cosmolo. I have had many supposedly experienced trainers of extreme dogs that can't handle a spirited Belgian Malinios or a GSD with some civil drive, let alone teach someone how to train them. I have also seen trainers walk away from jobs when the dog has come back up the leash at them too and they write the dog off as untrainable. Some of these situations have been trainers who claim to specialise in aggression and quite honestly, they really haven't got a clue and are often scared of the dog which doesn't help. Some also apply techniques not to ruffle the dog up and avoid triggers which provides the wrong impression of the training success as the dog still remains willing and able to aggress when faced with certain triggers. They don't test the dog properly in rehabilitation to face the right triggers that will cause the dog to react, and by avoiding triggers in a claim that the dog is now rehabilitated and safe is a dangerous practice IMHO.

Most trainers who work with aggression for real and understand it, work in similar principals and methods and the one's who disagree I have always found have limited exposure and experience in comparison. Their opinions are often based upon what they have read or what someone has told them, but their opinions if based upon personal experience working with aggression I think in many cases would be a lot different. It's not hard to tell reading peoples posts and opinions who is genuinely experienced with aggression and who isn't

Edited October 8, 2010 by SpecTraining

[Aidan]

They don't test the dog properly in rehabilitation to face the right triggers that will cause the dog to react, and by avoiding triggers in a claim that the dog is now rehabilitated and safe is a dangerous practice IMHO.

I put them back in family homes with kids and other dogs, but I guess that isn't a real test?

It's not hard to tell reading peoples posts and opinions who is really experienced with aggression and who isn't

Indeed. Or who is a real person.

[SpecTraining]

Some dogs need to learn that the handler can kill them if required which in some cases is the ONLY way that the dog will learn enough respect to stop it's fighting challenges.

So where do you go next, Garry? The dog is now aware that you can kill him, he no longer tries to bite you (the trainer). Has he learned not to bite everyone? Has he learned not to bite children, or other dogs? What about off-leash? Does he have less motivation to try and bite others?

What is it that CM isn't showing us and that you haven't explained here?

I don't think a dog that has to know the handler can kill them in order for them to respect, is well suited for a pet.

Most people do not want to almost kill their pet dog in order to gain respect.

Many people may not even be capable of doing this.

Sometimes the best option for the owner is to rehome to a working home or sadly, PTS.

No, they are not a good pet proposition at all I totally agree, but some people love them regardless and want to try and give them the best opportunity to rehabilitate them which I think is fair enough

[SpecTraining]

Rubbish. I know dogs that have been very well trained by professionals and behave brilliantly in that persons direct presence. Remove the trainer and the inconsistencies, ability and skill of the owner ALL come into play PLUS the dogs prior learning. Don't ever underestimate the effects of prior learning and situation specific responses- situations involving the owner. I did once and one of my dogs nearly paid the price for my (and another trainers) mistake with her life.

Can't recall too many blind people training guide dogs Cosmolo, or too many guide dogs fall apart when beyond the trainers presence as one example. Yes, poorly trained dogs with inadequate foundation can exhibit what you have explained I agree, it happens.

[SpecTraining]

They don't test the dog properly in rehabilitation to face the right triggers that will cause the dog to react, and by avoiding triggers in a claim that the dog is now rehabilitated and safe is a dangerous practice IMHO.

I put them back in family homes with kids and other dogs, but I guess that isn't a real test?

It's not hard to tell reading peoples posts and opinions who is really experienced with aggression and who isn't

Indeed. Or who is a real person.

This thread was about Cesar Milan techniques Aidan, by your responses it seems you think the thread is about you for some reason

[poodlefan]

ST:

I have had many supposedly experienced trainers of extreme dogs that can't handle a spirited Belgian Malinios or a GSD with some civil drive, let alone teach someone how to train them.

Is "spirited" a euphemism for "need to know the handler is prepared to kill them"?

No bloody wonder some security dogs attack the handler at the first sign of weakness.

Edited October 8, 2010 by poodlefan

[Kavik]

food reinforcement can only go so far if a dog is focus im sure a bickie isnt going to stop him from biting,

not always postitive reinforcement works for a 100% red zone 30 kg or above dog

i like her methods but i have seen her advise people to put there dog down because it bit people i know family comes first but, cesar has proven multiple multiple times that his way works for dogs that have no resort left.

There is a lot of scope between only giving the dog food and choking the dog til it passes out because you had to show the dog 'you were prepared to kill it to make it submit'

[Cosmolo]

Guide dogs are completely different- first of all they are trained for long periods of time (much longer than what i would see even my best clients) by the trainer AND they use stimulus control (harness on= work) and a variety of handlers to ensure what i mentioned doesn't happen. They also have a high fail rate. None of these things are okay with aggression- i don't want to have a high fail rate, i can't have a variety of handlers (because people who can train and handle aggressive dogs are thin on the ground) and i don't particularly want stimulus control- i want to change the way the dog feels about situations generally.

You can't compare the two. And to imply that regression with owners only occurs because of trainer incompetence is one of the most ridiculous things i have ever heard. Funnily enough though, its not the first time i have heard it- but it remains untrue.

[Cosmolo]

Has Caesar proven his methods work though? Are these dogs actually safe after his rehab? Spec training in all seriousness you should watch a Caesar episode where there are 2 pitbulls living together that fight- one of them goes for rehab with Caesar and does brilliantly until the owners are reintroduced. It is the perfect example of what i am referring to.