Cesar Milan Discussion

[charley101]

didn't he once use a shock collar on a dog and it turned around and bit the owner

In the Shadow video (which im sure you have all seen) where he strangles the dog into "submission", he actually kicks the dog which provokes it into attacking him (imo)

you can see at 2:10 and also again at 2:54 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh9YOyM2TAk

At the end, you can see the dog had urinated.

How can anybody who likes dogs even a tiny bit watch this and say they agree with it - it makes me feel sick

[poodlefan]

How can anybody who likes dogs even a tiny bit watch this and say they agree with it - it makes me feel sick

If the choice is strictly one between that sort of 'treatment' and PTS then I'm on Cesars side. However there's more than one road to desensitising an aggressive dog and some of them don't involve provoking the dog to bite.

[Rysup]

I actually think using the Shadow example is a poor one. I'd have liked to see anyone attempt that, with that dog.

Granted his foot tap did cause the dog to react, but I didnt think the dog was strangled into submission. I've seen dogs strangled into submission, and it was a lot more full on than that!

[Nekhbet]

But you did say choking a dog was an appropriate training method, and then went on to say

In some instances it is what you have to do. I did it to a chow chow that was about to take a chunk out of a very pregnant owner. Dog was about to take a bite, I lifted the dog by the lead slightly and stood there until it decided to calm down. Released the pressure, it went to take another chunk out of her and I did it again. Bingo bango instant dog that learned aggression is not tolerated. It calmed down for the rest of the day. Did it fix it permanently? No, long term training is required for that to happen. Did it stop a violent reaction and prevent harm? Sure did. Did the dog learn what was innapropriate? Yup. Would I do it again? If the circumstances required so I sure would. I have done it to dogs about to attack another person or dog. It's not hoiking the dog off the ground violently it's simply applying pressure in a calm manner and give the dog a choice - keep aggressing or settle down and have the pressure released. This is high end dogs we're talking about here, also something that Cesar deals with. Dogs that are dangerous to people or animals. The USA also has breeds we do not have in great numbers if at all - fighting bred/trained pitbulls, Presa Canario, Wolf mixes, Jintos, protection bred animals etc. Dogs that are above and beyond the league we see daily here in our suburbs or training.

No one has implied such a thing Why act like there are only two options, there are many ways to train aggressive dogs, why assume that if people don't agree with choking a dog until it gives up (because it's run out of air) that they must therefore feel training dogs with "cuddles and food" is the only appropriate option?

This is a thread about Cesars methods. Please enlighten me to the myriad of other ways you have used to retrain aggression, especially a dog that is on it's last chance and needs to learn a little faster then other dogs have the luxury of. It was simpy in reply to everyone bashing the fact he uses physical methods with the dogs.

If more people ever met a highly aggressive out of control dog, and had to deal with it for a while you would see then why he does what he does. They are terrifying, especially when they set their sights on you... A dog with the look of 'you're next' in its eyes is not something you forget. Big or small I can tell you it doesnt matter, they will all hurt you severely if they see fit. These dogs will thrash, bite, redirect, scream, growl etc but you have to get that toxicity out somehow. The last one that tried to take a chunk out of me was put on the end of a catch pole and muzzled, it wasnt frightened trust me. Actually that was also the first dog that instilled paranoia in me and that takes a lot. Some trainers are afraid to deal with a problem head on, he is not. It's horses for courses, if you dont like his methods then dont watch the show or emulate his ideals. Personally, I think he has worth and is a smart man with most things he does and says. I think people mistake his methods for a more 'fighting fire with fire' approach but I don't think it is.

In the Shadow video (which im sure you have all seen) where he strangles the dog into "submission", he actually kicks the dog which provokes it into attacking him (imo)

you can see at 2:10 and also again at 2:54 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh9YOyM2TAk

At the end, you can see the dog had urinated.

This video has been bashed to death. Wolfdog that chews its owners and tries to attack other dogs.

As for pissing, there are many dogs that piss all over themselves if you drop a pot lid on the ground. I have a 3 year old tough as boots rottie that gets excited, dances about then pisses all over my floor if too many new people come and his brain pops from excitement. Then there was this dog that fought and fought and fought then pissed because it finally realised it met it's match and was not going to be allowed to follow the same dangerous pattern of behaviour it always has. As for the 'kicking', he nudged the dog to distract and it redirected because it was loaded. A slight mistake on his behalf I probably would have turned it 180 and waited for it to calm a little before proceeding, if it arced up I would have tightened a DD collar around its neck and waited silently until it stopped tantruming.

You have to weight it up. Use something not so nice to save a dogs life, or send it to the vet because it's in the too hard basket...

How can anybody who likes dogs even a tiny bit watch this and say they agree with it - it makes me feel sick

I'm weighing up keeping the next nasty, aggressive, uncontrolled and unrehomable dog that gets thrown my way to have a demo day. Then people can come see what these animals' behaviour is truely like. Understand what it is like when they lash out and how truely scary it is.

Edited October 7, 2010 by Nekhbet

[Cosmolo]

I guess thats part of the problem though- In any TV show, you don't get to see the ongoing, dedicated training required to actually solve a dogs issues, hence it appears that whatever IS being shown is it.

Agree with what Aidan said too.

I have no problem with preventing a bite using any means necesary- not only is it in the best interest of the handler but it is in the best interest of the dog- i don't want any dog i am handling to realise they can lay a bite on me. But removing the dogs front feet from the ground and holding them out is exactly that- bite prevention, rather than a deliberate, intentional training exercise.

My OH has to do it more than most people i would think- we temperament test many, many dogs and as a result see a few that would be quite happy to take a chunk out of you- and they mean business. I have no hesitation in using whatever we have on the dog to hold them out until they settle because the alternative is to get bitten. Do we like it? No. But i like the alternative a whole lot less.

Sometimes bite prevention is step one. And its all very well and good to say well don't overface the dog in the first place. But in many cases, a persons presence overfaces them and we need to deal with that and then start training. JMO.

[huski]

In some instances it is what you have to do. I did it to a chow chow that was about to take a chunk out of a very pregnant owner. Dog was about to take a bite, I lifted the dog by the lead slightly and stood there until it decided to calm down. Released the pressure, it went to take another chunk out of her and I did it again. Bingo bango instant dog that learned aggression is not tolerated. It calmed down for the rest of the day. Did it fix it permanently? No, long term training is required for that to happen. Did it stop a violent reaction and prevent harm? Sure did. Did the dog learn what was innapropriate? Yup. Would I do it again? If the circumstances required so I sure would. I have done it to dogs about to attack another person or dog. It's not hoiking the dog off the ground violently it's simply applying pressure in a calm manner and give the dog a choice - keep aggressing or settle down and have the pressure released. This is high end dogs we're talking about here, also something that Cesar deals with. Dogs that are dangerous to people or animals. The USA also has breeds we do not have in great numbers if at all - fighting bred/trained pitbulls, Presa Canario, Wolf mixes, Jintos, protection bred animals etc. Dogs that are above and beyond the league we see daily here in our suburbs or training.

In a matter of life and death where you urgently have to prevent the dog from attacking then you do what you have to do (and I have said so in the past), but that is not how Cesar presents the method on his show. Does he ever mention that long term training is involved? No. The show is edited so that it shows Cesar intentionally putting the dog in a situation where it will severely aggress - he cuts its air off or alpha rolls it - the dog gives up (or runs out of breath) - problem solved. Aggression is not a simple black and white behaviourial problem, it is not always about the dog being dominant, believing so makes no room for the majority of aggression that is fear based and on whom confrontational methods would ruin not help.

I am quite concerned as a dog trainer that you see no other way of training an aggressive dog

This is a thread about Cesars methods. Please enlighten me to the myriad of other ways you have used to retrain aggression, especially a dog that is on it's last chance and needs to learn a little faster then other dogs have the luxury of. It was simpy in reply to everyone bashing the fact he uses physical methods with the dogs.

Oh FFS, this thread was started asking people what they thought of Cesar's methods. Many people (myself included) have said that there are things he does we agree with and things he does we don't like. Are the only people allowed to give an opinion about Cesar people who want to bow down and kiss his feet? The only person I see bashing anything in this is thread is you, having a go at anyone who so much as remotely has an opinion that goes against your own.

[huski]

I guess thats part of the problem though- In any TV show, you don't get to see the ongoing, dedicated training required to actually solve a dogs issues, hence it appears that whatever IS being shown is it.

Agree with what Aidan said too.

I have no problem with preventing a bite using any means necesary- not only is it in the best interest of the handler but it is in the best interest of the dog- i don't want any dog i am handling to realise they can lay a bite on me. But removing the dogs front feet from the ground and holding them out is exactly that- bite prevention, rather than a deliberate, intentional training exercise.

My OH has to do it more than most people i would think- we temperament test many, many dogs and as a result see a few that would be quite happy to take a chunk out of you- and they mean business. I have no hesitation in using whatever we have on the dog to hold them out until they settle because the alternative is to get bitten. Do we like it? No. But i like the alternative a whole lot less.

Sometimes bite prevention is step one. And its all very well and good to say well don't overface the dog in the first place. But in many cases, a persons presence overfaces them and we need to deal with that and then start training. JMO.

Agree with you completely - I don't have a problem with air blocking a dog in an urgent matter of safety but I would run a mile from any trainer who used it as their sole method for training an aggressive dog, or really, for anything other than prevention.

Edited October 7, 2010 by huski

[Aidan3]

I actually think using the Shadow example is a poor one. I'd have liked to see anyone attempt that, with that dog.

Granted his foot tap did cause the dog to react, but I didnt think the dog was strangled into submission. I've seen dogs strangled into submission, and it was a lot more full on than that!

The issue is that if the dog is loaded, don't deliberately pull the trigger. It's just not good handling. If the dog hadn't been provoked and he was just acting to protect himself and lay down a ground-rule, I would have had no issue with it (I wouldn't personally put the dog into that situation without more ground-work, but that's neither here nor there).

I'm not sure how you could argue that the dog wasn't strangled into submission. I don't think he stopped trying to bite because he was bored

[HugUrPup]

I don't really notice if his training methods are great or not because I am too mesmerized by his good looks and sexy accent

[SpecTraining]

I agree with what he does. As for choking, dog has an option - continue your behaviour and you get a consequence. If the dog calms down it stops. The options are in the dogs hands. He deals with a lot of large, strong dogs who are past the point of playing nice. Many of them are fix or go for a one way trip to the vet.

Not every dog can be fixed with cuddles and food.

I like most of his ideas, but wish there was a way to communicate with the average person that the cases he is dealing with are generally extreme and what he does in those extreme cases would be totally unnecessary for the average pet dogs.

what, like on every episode it is written do not try this at home without a professional?

I agree

[SpecTraining]

I agree with what he does. As for choking, dog has an option - continue your behaviour and you get a consequence. If the dog calms down it stops. The options are in the dogs hands. He deals with a lot of large, strong dogs who are past the point of playing nice. Many of them are fix or go for a one way trip to the vet.

Not every dog can be fixed with cuddles and food.

Surely Nekhbet though you are aware there are other options when training an aggressive dog other than choke it, or cuddle it and give it food

I've seen trainers handle "red zone" (as Cesar would call them) dogs without resorting to alpha rolling them (that would just be sheer stupidity anyway) or choking them till they give up (or run out of oxygen, either way) with great results so... I guess the "they are strong aggressive dogs" doesn't really make sense for me. And often, handling big aggressive dogs like Cesar does would be outright impossible for many owners to do - you'd have to be able to physically over power the dog, until it breaks. And even then, you are setting yourself up to get bitten.

Did you know that Nekhbet is well experienced at assessing and rehabilitating aggressive dogs Huski and I am not talking only cranky little snappers either, 40 odd kilo dogs looked at the wrong way are happy to take your head off, and she's actually very good at it and a respected trainer in the working dog fraturnity which may explain where her views on the situation derives from, practical work and success with animals of that nature, not an opinion based on a handful of theories and favourtism of particular training methods

Edited October 7, 2010 by SpecTraining

[SpecTraining]

Yes I would not have been able to bring my 14 month 50kg people and dog aggressive recue newfie around with just food and cuddles.

She needed to know the rules.......

Why the assumption that it's either alpha roll and choke your dog until it gives up, or food and cuddles? Who here is saying that dogs shouldn't learn the rules? Why the insinuation that if you use food or praise with aggressive dogs you aren't also able to implementing boundaries or rules? I have no problem with giving corrections, using tools like prongs or e-collars etc or giving dog boundaries but some of the things Cesar does makes me feel quite ill.

Besides, many people would not be strong enough to choke or alpha roll a 50kg aggressive newfie until it gave up (or just plain ran out of breath).

ETA: I find it amusing that anyone who doesn't 110% support Cesar is lumped into the new age food and cuddles, never ever punish your dog crowd.

What I think is most amusing is the criticsm of Cesars methods from people who have never trained aggressive dogs and quite frankly don't have the experience with aggressive dogs to form an educated opinion IMHO. The "never punish a dog crowd" are the ones responsible in most cases who recommend sending aggressive dogs to the bridge and deem the dog untrainable which is understandable given that their training methods don't work with dogs of that nature. Seriously aggressive dogs WILL nail you at the drop of a hat and if you are scared of them and allow the dog to win if they bring on a fight makes them worse. Standing up to dogs like that and winning the fight, the dog soon gets the message that it can't win and begins to form some respect. Some dogs need to learn that the handler can kill them if required which in some cases is the ONLY way that the dog will learn enough respect to stop it's fighting challenges.

Not too many dogs will take on a subject they can't beat and rehabilitation works in the exact opposite to confidence building used in protection training. The problem with methods that doesn't teach the dog respect of power, is that although softer methods can work to a degree, the dog ALWAYS has aggression up it's sleeve and will use aggression if need be. The dog has to learn that ANY aggression results in a major loss and at times, the more aversive and unpleasant for the particular dog the better and the alternative is PTS because the dog is too dangerous and unpredictable without learning clear definition and consequence.

Edited October 7, 2010 by SpecTraining

[SkySoaringMagpie]

The "never punish a dog crowd"...

Can you identify anyone in this thread who says they never punish or correct? This whole forum is pretty pro-correction for a dog training forum compared to a number of other forums out there. It's also pro-hunting, pro-schutzhund and pro a number of other things that don't get a lot of mainstream support. This is not a bunch of shmackos ladies sitting behind their computers.

I think it would be more helpful to be specific about what tools you're going to use in which situations rather than making broad statements based on extreme examples. Not all dog training problems are aggression problems. Some of them, like the housetraining problem in this forum, are boring, difficult, stressful problems without an opportunity to beat chests for the camera. Furthermore, a failure to fix those hard unglamorous problems also kills dogs on a regular basis.

I get really sick of the red zone aggro dog being hauled out to win arguments about correction when almost no-one in this forum is anti-correction. I like Nekhbet a lot btw, I just think this time she should have been more specific.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Not too many dogs will take on a subject they can't beat and rehabilitation works in the exact opposite to confidence building used in protection training. The problem with methods that doesn't teach the dog respect of power, is that although softer methods can work to a degree, the dog ALWAYS has aggression up it's sleeve and will use aggression if need be. The dog has to learn that ANY aggression results in a major loss and at times, the more aversive and unpleasant for the particular dog the better and the alternative is PTS because the dog is too dangerous and unpredictable without learning clear definition and consequence.

And again, the point being made here is not that you can't rehab a dog if you are sufficiently skilled and physically capable. The point is that many dogs are owned by people who are NOT physically or mentally capable of the things Milan does. Some dogs are always going to go wind up dead because there are not enough average homes for dogs who behave, much less highly skilled, well resourced and capable homes for dogs who don't.

[Staranais]

What exactly is Cesar Milan's background? Is he ex-police or ex-MWD trainer or something similar?

And, where do the dogs he treats ends up? Has anyone done a follow up study to see his long term success rates?

Sorry if these are questions everyone else knows the answer to, but I don't know a heck of a lot about the guy.

[Nekhbet]

I am quite concerned as a dog trainer that you see no other way of training an aggressive dog

I didnt write that. Have another read dear. I said that in some cases you do have to be a little more physical.

Like I said if you dont like the show or methods dont prescribe or watch. Simple.

[Kavik]

I don't think anyone would have a problem with air blocking a dog in an emergency when it is going to bite you or another dog and you have no other choice. But Cesar purposely puts the dog in a situation that is beyond its threshold and uses air blocking as his method of choice to fix problems, every episode I have seen he is purposely very confrontational and cops MANY bites. Sure maybe air blocking is necessary sometimes in an emergency, but ALL the time on ALL the cases he sees? Surely there are ways to deal with some of the problems seen on the show which does not require strangling the dog!

[huski]

I don't think anyone would have a problem with air blocking a dog in an emergency when it is going to bite you or another dog and you have no other choice. But Cesar purposely puts the dog in a situation that is beyond its threshold and uses air blocking as his method of choice to fix problems, every episode I have seen he is purposely very confrontational and cops MANY bites. Sure maybe air blocking is necessary sometimes in an emergency, but ALL the time on ALL the cases he sees? Surely there are ways to deal with some of the problems seen on the show which does not require strangling the dog!

Exactly

[huski]

I didnt write that. Have another read dear. I said that in some cases you do have to be a little more physical.

Sure, and in the other times you use food and cuddles, right??

Like I said if you dont like the show or methods dont prescribe or watch. Simple.

I don't go out of my way to watch his show or prescribe to the parts of his methods I don't like. But this is a thread asking everyone for their opinions on his methods, do you really think the only people who should respond should be those who love everything Cesar does?

Edited October 7, 2010 by huski

[poodlefan]

The number of purely positive (no aversives) trainers and handlers on this forum are few and far between. If that's how they choose to train THEIR dogs, so be it. I train in the real world and I train people who want a well behaved dog and realistically will visit my club for no more than 8-16 weeks with a young dog. Talk about "shaping" and "targetting" makes most glaze over.

I suppose I worry about Cesar's methods because like it or lump it, while I regard much of what I see on his show as "lion taming" (I used that expression earlier in the thread), Jo or Joanne Average regards what they see as ordinary everyday dog training despite the qualifiers Cesar gives.

So if Fido bares his teeth and growls at an approaching dog while out walking - what do you think fans of the show will do do correct this behaviour? Cesar controlled everything in the encounters. In the real world stringing up your dog for an aggression display, in addition to potentially escalating the behaviour, makes your dog a target if the other dog is offlead. I've seen a toy poodle owner hold her dog off the ground by its collar while other dogs lunged at it (to prevent it biting )- would it suprise anyone to learn that that dog displays symptoms of discomfort and aggresses when it SEES other dogs now?

Physical confrontations with severely aggressive dogs ARE in the realm of wild animal handling as far as I'm concerned. I've done what was necessary in an emergency but I don't kid myself it resolved the dog's behaviour.

My perspective is one of a pet dog trainer that teaches others how to handle dogs, not one of professional dog trainer who deals with dogs with severe behavioural issues for a living. My job is to train what I know and refer dogs beyond my capacity to professionals. If that makes the "working dog" folk wish to sneer at me then so be it. The facts are that, as I said earlier, an emphasis on boundaries, leadership and exercise for dogs as promoted by Cesar are invaluable messages to get out the the public. The lion taming, might make for good TV but it's neither an accurate nor realistic portrayal of the time and effort it takes to resolve such issues as Cosmolo has said. It sets owners of such dogs up for unrealistic expectations and frankly IMO, for failure.

For what its worth, its not just suburban volunteer dog trainers that have issues with how Cesar handles aggression. If Ian Dunbar, Patricial McConnell and others of their ilk raise the same concerns expressed by some in this thread then perhaps those who sneer at the "cuddly food stuffers" might like to get out of their comfort zone and read what's written by folk who see a lot of pet dogs with issues.

As I've said what folk choose to do or not do with their working dogs is out of my realm of experience. But please don't suggest that everything done by working dog trainers is appropriate or suitable for your average pet dog handler because it simply isn't. If Fido severely bites his owner in the real world, Fido's getting the green dream. Those who work with pets focus on preventing that from happening, not correcting it after the event ESPECIALLY once the owner's confidence has been irrevocably shattered.

In the other thread I drew folk's attention to the body language of Shadow's owners as Cesar handled their dog. First rule of dog training in my world is don't demonstrate methods that the handler isn't capable of replicating. Park your ego and teach the person how to handle their dog. What you can do with it doesn't matter a damn after they go home.

Edited October 7, 2010 by poodlefan