Getting A Pup At 3 Months

[koalathebear]

I've been speaking with a LOT of people... my ear is recovering from being on the phone so much. I have heard a LOT of information, good and bad about all sorts of dogs, pups and establishments.

One pup we're looking at is already 3 months old. He's been hanging out with his pack, is well-behaved, temperaments of all pups in the litter have 'emerged'.

I know that (some) literature says that the critical socialisation periods are up to 12 weeks but does anyone have any thoughts on getting a pup after that 12 week period? There are some advantages for us even though we miss the squishy-eyed, bewildered, roly poly puppy moments.

We like this one so far because unlike some of the others, the breeder wanted to chat for hours about each pup ... describing them in detail, pondering their personalities. I've found that breeders of working kelpies can be a bit clinical about the process and some of them churn out pups every month and this one only breeds once every few years and she's very picky about where she places the pup. She was also recommended by WKC as conscientious and responsible.

Totally sexist of me but a lot of the working line kelpie breeders are males and kind of blokey and it was refreshing to talk to a female who was cooey about her dog and describing rubbing her tummy while she was in labour. The guys were definitely not like that, especially the one who said I should buy Cesar Milan books.

Edited October 6, 2010 by koalathebear

[aussielover]

i thought the critical period extended to 16/20 weeks.

imo it would be ideal to get a well-bred, well socialised 12-16week old puppy. They are still really but they smart enough and cluey enough at this stage to work out what you want.

So you are getting a puppy now then? Elbie will enjoy that! You must be a sucker for punishment though

[spottychick]

What sort of puppy!!!!

[koalathebear]

i thought the critical period extended to 16/20 weeks.

Literature varies. Then again, some literature implies that if you don't get your dog from a pup you are Doomed and your little dog, too. Other places say: "It's never too late and you CAN teach an old dog new tricks blah blah". Who is to know what to believe? :D

So you are getting a puppy now then? Elbie will enjoy that! You must be a sucker for punishment though

We had been intending to wait until Elbie was one but timing-wise it would be good now while one of us is still temporarily at home in order to help the pup settle in. We have had many long discussions.

[poodlefan]

If the pup hasnt' had exposure outside the breeder's property and dogs, I'd be looking elsewhere.

It doesn't matter so much if the breeders hold onto pups for a while but pups need to get out and about and see a lot of sights and sounds. Otherwise, you could be looking down the barrel of a fearful dog for life.

[megan_]

I'd ask the breeder what sort of socialisation the pup has had, and I'd want specifics:

* how many times has it been off the property? What sort of places has it seen?

* What sort of people had it been exposed to (people of different races, people in wheelchairs etc)

[RuralPug]

Impossible to generalise about socialisation levels without knowing all the details of the pack, the environment, number of visitors/employees/family etc. etc. etc. The fact that you are comfortable with the breeder and her asessment of their personalities etc. is a plus.

It is not impossible to socialise an underexposed fearful older puppy or dog. I have done it myself, it just takes a lot more patience and gentle re-conditioning. Individual cases vary I would think.

Best advice is to go and assess the pup yourself. If you don't think you can do it without falling head over heels in love send someone sensible who can do an assessment for you. (oops didn't mean that to sound quite so um, harsh...hopefully you know what I mean )

[aussielover]

Personally I don't think 3 months old will make that much of a difference in the long term.

I got my aussie pup at 5/6 months and she had never left the breeders property as far as i know, was scared of cars, scared of strangers etc.

Within weeks she was fine with cars, she never really learnt to adore strangers, but she wasn't scared just indifferent. She turned out to be a pretty well adjusted dog.

Also, i think lovemesideways got her boy at 4 months with some fear issues, which they overcame- he is now very well adjusted, you couldn't meet a better behaved dog.

I'd be looking at the temperament of the parents and close relatives though, as some dogs are just born more fearful and even with great socialisation will always remian a bit timid.

If you were looking at a 2yr old + dog, then I would be a little more concerned.

[Kavik]

Depends on genetics - temperament of parents and of pup + amount of socialisation.

For some pups this may not be a problem and even if fearful you may be able to overcome, other pups it could be a disaster and temperament problems for the dog's life.

ETA: in the NDTF course critical socialisation period was stated up to 16 weeks.

Edited October 6, 2010 by Kavik

[wuffles]

Ava arrived at our house, I think, at about 12 weeks 1 day old. You have seen for yourself what she has turned out like I don't feel like I missed anything at all. She was still a little fluffball who had no clue about the world

[VJB]

I also got Heidi at 12 weeks, and never had a issue that I felt was because of not finding us until she was 12 weeks. I also agree with others saying that it depends how much effort and social experiences you are prepared to offer your new pup once it is home.

[koalathebear]

It's a purebred kelpie puppy, registered with the Working Kelpie Council. Working dogs don't need to be microchipped so that would be something we would do ourselves if we got him. He's tattooed, vet-checked, wormed and has had one set of vaccinations - second set due next week. Regarding health, that's about as good as you can get from a breeder for a working line kelpie.

The pup has never been in a car but he has visited with neighbours and their families and also been visited. They've also been visited by buyers of other pups in the litter - no signs of fearfulness of shyness. The pup in question has been identified as being the most suitable for getting along with another dog - smart, obedient, not too boisterous. We had originally preferred one of the females but she told us that the females can be a bit dominant and bossy and one of them is being thingy about wearing a collar. The breeder seems very disapproving of this because it's "never happened before" with any of her other pups. :rolleyes:

aussielover: what you say is quite consistent with what I've been told by a lot of the working kelpie people. These particular dogs have been socialised with people and other dogs but it's not uncommon for working kelpies to spend their whole life on a farm, never meeting anyone else and then going to trials etc and being fine among strangers and Strange Things. There's not a lot of room for error in terms of temparament and the shaky-nerved ones tend to be shot. Not what this breeder told me of course - just some of the other people I've chatted with.

If we got this one, we'd have it going to beginner obedience classes as soon as vaccinations were done - doesn't matter if he misses the first couple of weeks. Elbie's also about to start doing two sets of obedience classes (one on Sat and one on Sun), so there would be more socialisation ops for the pup there.

We'd also probably invite any Canberra-DOLers who were interested over to our house for a puppy cuddle party. We were originally looking at getting a female and naming her Cupcake so would have had a Cupcake Cuddle Party with cupcakes, but may now need to rethink the menu. :D

Edited October 6, 2010 by koalathebear

[Nekhbet]

It depends what you want from the dog. Also, are you going to be keeping a working bred kelpie in suburbia? Personally I'd steer clear of a WKC bred one unless it is much less drivey then normal.

If the socialisation has been very little to off farm situations I wouldnt buy it.

[koalathebear]

It depends what you want from the dog. Also, are you going to be keeping a working bred kelpie in suburbia? Personally I'd steer clear of a WKC bred one unless it is much less drivey then normal.

If the socialisation has been very little to off farm situations I wouldnt buy it.

Hi: Thanks for your reply! We already have a kelpie/border collie cross with us in suburbia - very active but entertained and occupied. He's happy with no destructive behaviours apart from decapitating the occasional soft toy :rolleyes: He's a mutt from working lines, no idea of genealogy. He's doing well at obedience, we'll do agilty when he's older, we took him herding for fun before and he'll go again.

We've avoided the WKC breeders whose dogs would be unsuitable as pets - some of them just would not be all right if not working sheep. In talking to other working kelpie owners, we don't want a dog that would be useless at sheep because they tend to be scatter-brained/fearful i.e. if the dog isn't good at sheep, why? So the idea is to have a dog that's smart and obedient but not too hyper.

We did consider a pound kelpie but sound temperament is very important. We've also looked into the difference between show kelpie/working line and decided that working line suits us better. After chatting with other kelpie people who have seen how Elbie is and the work we've been doing with him, they think we would be fine with a working line kelpie.

I really just wanted to make sure that 3 months wasn't a fatal age in terms of socialisation etc

ETA: pup is 11 weeks old

Edited October 6, 2010 by koalathebear

[poodlefan]

We'd also probably invite any Canberra-DOLers who were interested over to our house for a puppy cuddle party. We were originally looking at getting a female and naming her Cupcake so would have had a Cupcake Cuddle Party with cupcakes, but may now need to rethink the menu. :rolleyes:

Given that you already have a young male, I'd be sticking to that decision and waiting for the right female.

The pup has never been in a car but he has visited with neighbours and their families and also been visited. They've also been visited by buyers of other pups in the litter - no signs of fearfulness of shyness. The pup in question has been identified as being the most suitable for getting along with another dog - smart, obedient, not too boisterous. We had originally preferred one of the females but she told us that the females can be a bit dominant and bossy and one of them is being thingy about wearing a collar. The breeder seems very disapproving of this because it's "never happened before" with any of her other pups.

I'm sorry but I don't buy this. Gender doesn't dictate dominance. Sounds to me like you've hit a breeder motivated to offload the last of the litter. This pup has lost 6 weeks of critical socialisation experiences. I'd be waiting for the right pup and getting one that's had the ideal start in life.

Dont' make the mistake of buying the "right now" pup KTB. You'll have 15 years to regret it.

Edited October 6, 2010 by poodlefan

[koalathebear]

Given that you already have a young male, I'd be sticking to that decision and waiting for the right female.

...

I'm sorry but I don't buy this. Gender doesn't dictate dominance. Sounds to me like you've hit a breeder motivated to offload the last of the litter. This pup has lost 6 weeks of critical socialisation experiences. I'd be waiting for the right pup and getting one that's had the ideal start in life.

Dont' make the mistake of buying the "right now" pup KTB. You'll have 15 years to regret it.

Thanks for your feedback PF.

There are still 2 females and 2 males in the litter out of 8 and we have discussed the temperament of each one in detail. In any case, we are still pondering things but will be very careful in our decision-making as we will be living with the consequences.

We were very concerned about the gender issue which is why we were looking for a female - one of the first items discussed with each of the breeders and also with other kelpie owners.

After checking with other kelpie owners (show and working line, on DOL and off-DOL) and also with breeders (show and working line, off DOL but recommended by DOLers) and they have confirmed that the gender should not be an issue for kelpie-coexistence - it will be down to the temperament of the respective dogs and everyone we've spoken to is aware that we have a dog already and that sort of dog he is.

Edited October 6, 2010 by koalathebear

[poodlefan]

Given that you already have a young male, I'd be sticking to that decision and waiting for the right female.

Thanks. We were very concerned about the gender issue which is why we were looking for a female. After checking with other kelpie owners (show and working line, on DOL and off-DOL) and also with breeders (show and working line, off DOL but recommended by DOLers) and they have confirmed that the gender should not be an issue for kelpie-coexistence - it will be down to the temperament of the respective dogs and everyone we've spoken to is aware that we have a dog already and that sort of dog he is.

They are dogs KTB. No one can guarantee the adult temperament (in terms of dominance) of any breed pup. All Kelpies are not angels - just like any other breed.

If you want to minimise the risk of conflict, pick the other gender. You're a pet dog owner who's unlikely to solve aggression between your dogs with your boot or a bullet. Choose wisely.

You've already compromised on age, socialisation experiences and gender. That's not something I'd ever recommend to a future dog sports person.

[RallyValley]

I have two male boy dogs 1.5 years apart. I don't regret it but I would never space dogs that close togther again! Minimum 3 years between dogs from now on here. All your training with Elbie can come undone adding another. I would wait till Elbie was trialling before you added another. But that's just my view and plenty of other have done differently and had no issues.

[aussielover]

I don't think females are more dominant in general. I'd be a bit concerned if that was the breeders view. Though perhaps she meant that particular female?

Generally speaking PF is right, you have better chances of the dogs getting on if you get male/female, however, a pup with a compatible temperament should be fine. I guess that is where it gets hard and you have to trust the breeder.

Can you take Elbie to meet the pups?

[koalathebear]

1. I believe she meant the female in this particular litter, after I described Elbie to her.

2. The pups are 3 months (11 weeks old) - is this really missing the critical socialisation period? For our part, a slightly older pup works better for us in terms of our timing and size compared to Elbie and seems like a plus rather than a compromise.

3. We actually preferred having another male pup. We only went in asking for female because we read on DOL that it was better to have one of each gender. Every single breeder (show and working line) assured us that gender does not matter as long as they are both desexed - this wasn't a matter of off-loading unwanted pups, in most instances, the pups aren't even born yet. They felt it was more important to match temperaments. In terms of the litter we're looking at now, we are able to choose one of the girlies if we want, but after I described Elbie to her, she thought that the boy would be a better fit.

ETA: We are not in a 'hurry' for this. We are on waiting lists with a couple of breeders and would actually be prepared to wait another year, but out of all the breeders with whom I have spoken to, this was the first person who: (1) I felt a warm-feeling about; (2) described a pup that seemed compatible with Elbie. She is not likely to breed again for some time which is why we are even considering taking one from this litter instead of another.

I am extremely respectful of all views and opinions and do appreciate the time that people take to give me their input, but must stress that my main concern was whether or not 11-12 weeks is still ok in terms of socialisation based on your experiences or whether a critical window has been missed. As mentioned, we are very aware of the consequences of our actions and will not make any decisions lightly. We would also stand by any decision we made and would never pass off problems to anyone else.

Edited October 6, 2010 by koalathebear