Do We Need More Education?

[B-Q]

she had her arm bitten while breaking up a dog fight. Council has seized the dogs.

Sheesh!! :rolleyes: That council sounds as if it needs some edumacation. Glad the dogs who have bitten me when I was breaking up fights weren't in that council!

I havn't heard anything following it up yet though. Hopefully someone with some power has some sense.

I can't stand Qld's dog laws in general, BSL is terrible here and you can;t even own a pet rabbit.

I wish people would relise how important picking the right breed is I love Malamutes for example but I just don't think I would ever match a spitz breed. I like trainability and dogs that are really interested in everythign I'm doing.

I've talked to so many people that want husky's, I don't want to make the breed sound like a terror but I know they arn't suitable for most people. Quickly mentioning the sheer amount of hair that comes off them, that they are quiet independant and that being bred to pull sleds all days means they have a lot of energy and are often escape artists makes a lot of people step back and go "oh, I just liked how pretty they are"

ETA

My Mum has always loved bully breeds but I think she summed it up well the other day when she said you have to be prepared to think for them so they don't get themselves in bad situations. I see what she means, having that terrier edge on something with so much power does require the right owner, I don't know if I could handle that either.

Edited October 6, 2010 by busterlove

[Jed]

Most breeders I know say their breeding practice it to breed to the standard. That the standard is the description of the breed that will maintain that breed and bring it in to the future. The standard is a written record and ideal of the breed, it is the minds eye of what the breed is. So where better for anyone to learn about the breed than the standard.

Everyone should be sent to the standard to learn about the breed they are interested in. You can usually find a line or two some where near the top of the standard about history, temperament, behaviors or instincts.

Here are 3 standard comments that are not about appearance and focus on the what the dog is suppose to be like.

1. No history mentioned

Temperament: Outgoing and confident, friendly, courageous and intelligent. Alert at all times, not aggressive but fearless

2. No history mentioned

Temperament: Should be alert, lively, self confident and active.

3. No history mentioned

Temperament: Firm, balanced, reliable, restrained temperament. Neither nervous, nor shy or aggressive.

It is easy to tell what group they belong in and to get a real idea of what makes these breeds different to each other and what it is about them that is special.

All starts with the breeding, eh?

I don't think the average pet buyer needs to read the standard at all. He needs to know himself, and what his needs and aspirations are, and he needs to know about the breed he is interested in.

And he can find that out by asking people who own it, or asking the breeder. Preferably both.

The standard is the blueprint of the breed - and that is for the breeder.

[Cazstaff]

Bub- what I am thinking is that .. a couple of generations ago , when dogs were more or less free to roam neighbourhoods, fight, howl, follow the kids around to parks etc.. there seemed to be more knowledge of dogs as ANIMALS - kids grew up playing outside with their dogs.. teh dogs used to have pups..the dogs used to snap/nip if kids did the wrong thing- and , in my neck of the woods, anyway, we were given no sympathy .. just told to remember the lesson, and not repeat whatever it was we did.

Kids often never saw a dog indoors..they did see dogs roaming in packs- scrounging, mating,fighting..they KNEW what dogs did ...and how to avoid being bitten

Dog behaviour , like a lot of human behaviour today seems to have been 'sanitised' .. so we don't see dogs doing all of which they are capable - therefore succeeding generations do not know what to look out for/manage.

:D I'm p'raps not explaining it well..sorry.

I 100% relate to what you are saying here. I often talk to my kids about how our dogs lived when I was their age. Sandy would be tied up when mum went to work and Id let her off when I got home from school, she would take off at a million miles an hour to who knows where!. No fences or leads, no obedience school or formal socialising. Sometimes she would come home with other dogs and we thought it was great! You are right pers, we knew which dogs we could pat and which ones to give space just from seeing them be dogs.

You'd go to the local park and there would always be a handful of unknown dogs hanging around being dogs, it was normal, we weren't scared of them. The very tall ladder up to the steep metal slippery dip that landed you in a pile of gravel after burning your legs all the way down was more frightening :rolleyes: My kids laugh and can't imagine what it would be like to have dogs around 'unattended'.

Dog behaviour , like a lot of human behaviour today seems to have been 'sanitised' .. so we don't see dogs doing all of which they are capable - therefore succeeding generations do not know what to look out for/manage.

This is so very true

One of the things I have loved about rescue is watching and learning about group dynamics with a wide cross section of dogs, the joy of seeing how the established group not only interact with each other but also how they treat newcomers. I have watched them teach manners to the unruly, nurture & protect pups, weak or sick dogs and dicipline the over the top dogs. I imagine when I was a kid these natural dog behaviours were given the freedom to work their magic in the neighbourhood, resulting in more balanced animals that co existed with people more easily.

[shortstep]

The standard is the blueprint of the breed - and that is for the breeder.

Exactly.

The original poster said that people seem to pick out their dogs based on how they look instead of how they act (breed behavior traits).

We can hardly blame buyers for that when the emphasis in the breed standards are 95% or more about looks. The breed standard is where it all begins so I have been told so many times. Some breeders may spend a lot of time selecting for and culling for the proper breed traits such as working, hunting, herding and so on. But that is not reflected by looking at the standard, is not reflected in the Championship and is usually not reflected by the breeders web site or ads that are showcasing their dogs.

Typical ad will say the parents are champions, pups are X colour, health testing, maybe some thing that says their dogs make excellent pets. Usually followed by the halo implying, 'We breed for type structure and temperament, only breeding when we want a dog for our selves'. I have seen many many litters advertized without one word about the parents personalities, never mind breed traits. Lets face it, breed typical behaviors and working traits are for the most part not the headline topic of the breeders when representing their dogs to the public.

The public is only reflecting back what they perceive the breeders think is important and that is how the dog looks, who could blame them for that?

If the standards gave 50% weight to breed behavior traits, perhaps the breeders would start to also give it more importance in the presentations of their dogs to the public.

Just my opinion.

Edited October 6, 2010 by shortstep

[Guest]

I agree %100, Persephone.

lablove

[persephone]

Bub- what I am thinking is that .. a couple of generations ago , when dogs were more or less free to roam neighbourhoods, fight, howl, follow the kids around to parks etc.. there seemed to be more knowledge of dogs as ANIMALS - kids grew up playing outside with their dogs.. teh dogs used to have pups..the dogs used to snap/nip if kids did the wrong thing- and , in my neck of the woods, anyway, we were given no sympathy .. just told to remember the lesson, and not repeat whatever it was we did.

Kids often never saw a dog indoors..they did see dogs roaming in packs- scrounging, mating,fighting..they KNEW what dogs did ...and how to avoid being bitten

Dog behaviour , like a lot of human behaviour today seems to have been 'sanitised' .. so we don't see dogs doing all of which they are capable - therefore succeeding generations do not know what to look out for/manage.

I'm p'raps not explaining it well..sorry.

I 100% relate to what you are saying here. I often talk to my kids about how our dogs lived when I was their age. Sandy would be tied up when mum went to work and Id let her off when I got home from school, she would take off at a million miles an hour to who knows where!. No fences or leads, no obedience school or formal socialising. Sometimes she would come home with other dogs and we thought it was great! You are right pers, we knew which dogs we could pat and which ones to give space just from seeing them be dogs.

You'd go to the local park and there would always be a handful of unknown dogs hanging around being dogs, it was normal, we weren't scared of them. The very tall ladder up to the steep metal slippery dip that landed you in a pile of gravel after burning your legs all the way down was more frightening My kids laugh and can't imagine what it would be like to have dogs around 'unattended'.

Dog behaviour , like a lot of human behaviour today seems to have been 'sanitised' .. so we don't see dogs doing all of which they are capable - therefore succeeding generations do not know what to look out for/manage.

This is so very true

One of the things I have loved about rescue is watching and learning about group dynamics with a wide cross section of dogs, the joy of seeing how the established group not only interact with each other but also how they treat newcomers. I have watched them teach manners to the unruly, nurture & protect pups, weak or sick dogs and dicipline the over the top dogs. I imagine when I was a kid these natural dog behaviours were given the freedom to work their magic in the neighbourhood, resulting in more balanced animals that co existed with people more easily.

That is what I was trying to explain

[Loraine]

I feel the same as you pers.

so answer is yes

Me too!!!

[perrin]

In a few weeks our kinder is getting a visit from the Responsible Pet Education Program so it will be really interesting as apparently they will work with the parents for 30 minutes and the kids for 30 minutes. I'm really looking forward to it. Hopefully it will be and informative half hour.

[sebastion 2]

Bub- what I am thinking is that .. a couple of generations ago , when dogs were more or less free to roam neighbourhoods, fight, howl, follow the kids around to parks etc.. there seemed to be more knowledge of dogs as ANIMALS - kids grew up playing outside with their dogs.. teh dogs used to have pups..the dogs used to snap/nip if kids did the wrong thing- and , in my neck of the woods, anyway, we were given no sympathy .. just told to remember the lesson, and not repeat whatever it was we did.

Kids often never saw a dog indoors..they did see dogs roaming in packs- scrounging, mating,fighting..they KNEW what dogs did ...and how to avoid being bitten

Dog behaviour , like a lot of human behaviour today seems to have been 'sanitised' .. so we don't see dogs doing all of which they are capable - therefore succeeding generations do not know what to look out for/manage.

I'm p'raps not explaining it well..sorry.

I 100% relate to what you are saying here. I often talk to my kids about how our dogs lived when I was their age. Sandy would be tied up when mum went to work and Id let her off when I got home from school, she would take off at a million miles an hour to who knows where!. No fences or leads, no obedience school or formal socialising. Sometimes she would come home with other dogs and we thought it was great! You are right pers, we knew which dogs we could pat and which ones to give space just from seeing them be dogs.

You'd go to the local park and there would always be a handful of unknown dogs hanging around being dogs, it was normal, we weren't scared of them. The very tall ladder up to the steep metal slippery dip that landed you in a pile of gravel after burning your legs all the way down was more frightening My kids laugh and can't imagine what it would be like to have dogs around 'unattended'.

Dog behaviour , like a lot of human behaviour today seems to have been 'sanitised' .. so we don't see dogs doing all of which they are capable - therefore succeeding generations do not know what to look out for/manage.

This is so very true ;)

One of the things I have loved about rescue is watching and learning about group dynamics with a wide cross section of dogs, the joy of seeing how the established group not only interact with each other but also how they treat newcomers. I have watched them teach manners to the unruly, nurture & protect pups, weak or sick dogs and dicipline the over the top dogs. I imagine when I was a kid these natural dog behaviours were given the freedom to work their magic in the neighbourhood, resulting in more balanced animals that co existed with people more easily.

What they said

[Cosmolo]

Yes, yes and yes. But sadly- unless point of sale is more controlled i just can't see how its going to happen.

People don't understand what is normal behaviour for a dog, let alone normal behaviour for the breed they chose or the individual dog they have. :D

[Kirty]

God yes. I foster for BC Rescue and you would not BELIEVE the number of emails I get that go something like this:

"Hi, I bought a BC puppy 6-12 months ago and it is destroying my house. It is soooo naughty. It barks, it digs, it rounds up the kids, it chases the cats/chooks/rabbits/livestock. it never sits still. It is not desexed and I never walk it and its never been to obedience and we don't want it anymore. I bought it from a guy/pet shop/farm and it has short hair. Can you please take it?" My reply usually goes something like this "Your dog sounds like a perfectly normal, BORED BC..." :D

[Lucy's mama]

Well yeah, a lot of it is lack of understanding of the breed. Some of it is going 'ýeah, I can deal with that, not allow this from the start and manage that', etc. and then finding it much more difficult than expected.

Did I expect my Aussie to chase the kids and round up the chooks, chase bikes, bark etc? You bet your arse I did. I also expected that with firm guidance from day one these traits would be minimised, controlled and managed. (After all, most of the breed guides say 'require training to avoid nipping/chasing blah blah blah) I was wrong or my training was insufficient or my methods unsuitable despite researching and putting in my best effort. Things are on the up but it has been a shit load harder than I expected. I wanted to give up many times. Even though I researched, met examples of the breed, bought from a registered breeder and knew what to expect etc.

So not every owner who is finding their dog a handfull is guilty of not researching, not training, not exercising and buying from a pet shop.

[persephone]

So not every owner who is finding their dog a handfull is guilty of not researching, not training, not exercising and buying from a pet shop.

and that is NOT what this thread is about at all :D Sorry if you felt I was delegating guilt!

I started this thread because I feel sad because so many people out there have lost touch with, or just don't realise that DOGS as a whole are what they are - animals equipped with teeth. chasing instinct, and all the other things dogs do, which are these days, mostly NOT what people want/expect when they buy a dog.

[Lucy's mama]

and that is NOT what this thread is about at all Sorry if you felt I was delegating guilt!

No, that's fine, I must have come across defensive, I'm not offended,

Edited October 6, 2010 by Lucy's mama

[HeavyPaws]

I agree about the 'old times' thing. I grew up as a feral child on a farm and I learned early on to interpret dog body language. When the dog had enough of being run around the paddock by 10 screaming kids, we'd know when to leave it alone.

It took being nipped a few times, but that was it. We were told "don't touch the dog's food", we did it, we got nipped, we cried and were told "See what happens?", we didn't do it again.

We learned the emotional thresholds of dogs early on. We'd be stacked on top of the heeler giggling and poking and suddenly all back off because it let us know that enough was enough. If we ignored the warnings we'd get nipped and barked at. He loved playing but when he'd had enough the meaning was clear.

Now dogs are something you can go into a store and buy, it's like a new baby "hug the puppy, chase the puppy, touch the puppy's food" and when puppy has had enough and is presenting signs of getting reaaalllyyy sick of being picked up and dragged around, kids have no idea what's going on and end up getting bitten.

I've been called dog whisperer by my friends because I know when to leave the dog alone when it just bites everyone else. It's not magic, it's not whispering, the dog went stiff then stalked off to the corner of the porch. It's not some grand magic trick, it very clearly told me "NO MORE" and I listened.

Yeah, if I follow it and bend down to pat it, it will bite me.

Education starts in the home as well, with dog-savvy parents that teach their kids to behave around animals. Even my 4 year old can tell when a dog tied up outside the store doesn't want to be approached. She'll go around it in a large circle and leave it well alone.

She's friendly and playful with dogs, and can get rough, but she's never been bitten. Why? because we've taught her dogs are animals, and they can hurt you if you don't respect them. She always backs off before it gets too rough, and she'll walk away from a dog that's giving her the warning to back off.

I love the idea of groups going to preschools and teaching children how to behave around dogs