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[dog geek]

... and its mode of inheritance.

Okay: so Sable is a modified version of the Agouti gene, and is known as a/s.

And Black and Tan is a modified version of the Agouti gene, and is known as a/t.

And a/t is recessive to a/s.

Which means, I think, that you can get black and tan puppies from sable parents... doesn't it?

I am currently confusing myself about black and tan in Pomeranians... shouldn't they be allowed, if they are merely a version of the same gene as the sables?

[ellz]

In layman's terms...you can't get sable without the tan points gene. It is effectively the on/off switch for the sable patterning.

Editing to continue:

There are colours/patterns in many breeds that whilst possible aren't allowed. For example, sable happens in American Cockers (usually froma parent with tan points or which carries the tan points gene), but they aren't allowed. Smut Staffords can produce black/tan puppies which aren't desirable.

Edited October 4, 2010 by ellz

[dog geek]

In layman's terms...you can't get sable without the tan points gene. It is effectively the on/off switch for the sable patterning.

Editing to continue:

There are colours/patterns in many breeds that whilst possible aren't allowed. For example, sable happens in American Cockers (usually froma parent with tan points or which carries the tan points gene), but they aren't allowed. Smut Staffords can produce black/tan puppies which aren't desirable.

But... but... why not? I hypothesised that the standards don't permit the b/t because it is perceived as an indicator of impure breeding somewhere along the line? But if it is actually part of the gene for a permitted colour (sable), then why not the b/t?

Soooooooo confused

[ellz]

Well, in Staffords it stems back to the "olden days" before genetics was understood and they feared that the black/tan colouration which they believe came from the English Toy Terrier or its ancestors, may take over and with it may come the finer, smaller build that might "ruin" the breed.

In American Cockers black/tan is permitted but sable isn't and those who have done their best to outlaw the colour have tried to say that a Beagle or a dachshund or another breed is the culprit.

Neither are true, but old habits die hard.

[Lowenhart]

What is Sable? Some people call any golden dog with a few black hairs (mask or ears) "Sable".

The "a" locus is theorised currently to be:

aw - "Wild Type" or Sable. Each individual hair is banded.

ay - Red/Golden

at - Black & Tan

a - Recessive Black, as seen in Puli and GSD

[Lowenhart]

Further to my previous post.

Each dog recieves one copy of the allele (gene) from each parent so has two alleles on each locus. So a Sable/Fawn/Gold can product Black and Tan as it is recessive to both aw and ay ie

aw/at = Wild Type carries Black & Tan

ay/at = Fawn (Clear Sable/Red/Gold) carries Black & Tan

Both these dogs carry a single copy of the at gene but do not show it due to the dominance of aw and ay. In most cases a dog will ba at/at to be Black and Tan and will only give at genes to their offspring.

This is my favourite genetics page. The person writing is actually actively involved in finding the markers for each colour and understanding colour inheritance scientifically.

[Mystiqview]

Sables also occur in Border Collies, but the Australian Breed standard does not allow this colour (along with many other colours that are allowed over seas, including the country of origin).

The sable in our breed is believed to have come in when they used Rough Collies to get the glamour coat. So of course, more genes would be included.

The sable I bred last year, came from two black/white parents. The dam I believe is what we call a phantom sable or "seal" as one label used in the UK. The sire we believe is a phantom Tricolour as when young, there was observed tri markings around the hock region. Last year's litter produced two (possibly three) definite shaded sable and a couple of what I believe phantom sable from 11 puppies.

I just repeated the mating this year. I have produced one definite sable or possible phantom sable from 7 puppies. Two puppies are what we call ee-red. Unfortunately red is a masking gene, so there is a possibility these two red pups are genetic sable with the ee-red masking the sable pattern

[dog geek]

Okay, that is reassuring - I was actually reading that website when I started confusing myself.

So... if it is just a recessive form of sable, why is black and tan not accepted in Poms?

Sorry to be so slow on the uptake, guys!

[Lowenhart]

Okay, that is reassuring - I was actually reading that website when I started confusing myself.

So... if it is just a recessive form of sable, why is black and tan not accepted in Poms?

Sorry to be so slow on the uptake, guys!

Just because something is genetically linked (as being on the same agouti locus) doesn't mean the standard writers knew about it or cared that it is genetically possible to mate two standard coloured animals and get non-standard colours.

Why for the longest time didn't the Great Dane standard include Mantles when they were key to the production of good Harlequins? Why isn't Brindle points allowed in Basenji when they now allow Brindles and Tri's have always been there? It's a genetic possibility but not allowed by the standard.

Standard writers aren't geneticists. And phenotypically (what you see in front of you) Black & Tan is a different colour to the shades of sables.

Have you searched out people's opinions on the history of the colour? Like this page.

[Lowenhart]

Sables also occur in Border Collies, but the Australian Breed standard does not allow this colour (along with many other colours that are allowed over seas, including the country of origin).

The sable in our breed is believed to have come in when they used Rough Collies to get the glamour coat. So of course, more genes would be included.

The sable I bred last year, came from two black/white parents. The dam I believe is what we call a phantom sable or "seal" as one label used in the UK. The sire we believe is a phantom Tricolour as when young, there was observed tri markings around the hock region. Last year's litter produced two (possibly three) definite shaded sable and a couple of what I believe phantom sable from 11 puppies.

I just repeated the mating this year. I have produced one definite sable or possible phantom sable from 7 puppies. Two puppies are what we call ee-red. Unfortunately red is a masking gene, so there is a possibility these two red pups are genetic sable with the ee-red masking the sable pattern

Solid Black (as most show Border Collies appear) is a dominate K locus allele and totally independant to the A locus. So if a dog is Kk (Black, carrying non-black) and AyAt and bred to the same, you can get - Black, Red or Shaded Sable and Black & Tan in the one litter.

A true phantom would be a dog like the sire, who has white markings hiding his tan points, whereas I believe the dam just has a single copy of K and has a Ay gene. Who knows what A series genes the KK (Black, carries Black) dogs have, especially if they are bred to other KK dogs. Half the dogs could be carrying sable

[Mystiqview]

Sables also occur in Border Collies, but the Australian Breed standard does not allow this colour (along with many other colours that are allowed over seas, including the country of origin).

The sable in our breed is believed to have come in when they used Rough Collies to get the glamour coat. So of course, more genes would be included.

The sable I bred last year, came from two black/white parents. The dam I believe is what we call a phantom sable or "seal" as one label used in the UK. The sire we believe is a phantom Tricolour as when young, there was observed tri markings around the hock region. Last year's litter produced two (possibly three) definite shaded sable and a couple of what I believe phantom sable from 11 puppies.

I just repeated the mating this year. I have produced one definite sable or possible phantom sable from 7 puppies. Two puppies are what we call ee-red. Unfortunately red is a masking gene, so there is a possibility these two red pups are genetic sable with the ee-red masking the sable pattern

Solid Black (as most show Border Collies appear) is a dominate K locus allele and totally independant to the A locus. So if a dog is Kk (Black, carrying non-black) and AyAt and bred to the same, you can get - Black, Red or Shaded Sable and Black & Tan in the one litter.

A true phantom would be a dog like the sire, who has white markings hiding his tan points, whereas I believe the dam just has a single copy of K and has a Ay gene. Who knows what A series genes the KK (Black, carries Black) dogs have, especially if they are bred to other KK dogs. Half the dogs could be carrying sable

LOL. I tried to keep my response simple.

Yeah. There are a few other breeders who have produced it. For the most part, from what I have seen, many breeders hide the fact they have bred sable or something resembling it. There are those who will openly flaunt it if they get the chance. The colour breeders of any breed mainly. There are others, thankfully who will admit they have bred it, and register it accordingly.

The frustrating part in my breed, is Australia is the only country that does not recognise the full colours of the breed. If I hopped over to New Zealand for instance, all colours are recognised.