Puppy "laundering" Or Stolen Puppies?

[Diva]

I'm not a breeder, but I am pretty sure docking of tails - except in exceptional circumstances - is now illegal everywhere including WA. So it's no clue to their origin, just the willingness of someone to break the law.

Something dodgy went on. Hard to tell what though. The person who claimed to have found the puppies could have bred them - 'finding' would be a common excuse given to rescue orgs I think.

[lanabanana]

IMO the rescue organisation needs to grow some balls.

I assume, in some cases of rescue there are going to be some unsavoury characters involved and oyu are going to have to be able to stand up to some bullying etc. It's not all going to be sunshine and rainbows with the types of people who abandon and abuse their pets.

I am quite disappointed that anyone would give in to bullying an dhand the puppies back, specially someone who is supposedly working in rescue with what should be the best interest of the animal.

Probably read it all wrong but meh...

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

So in most states, if a dog is found abandoned, or ownerless, it needs to go to the council pound first, and the council can make some attempt to identify the dog and owner and re-unite them. If within a set period (sometimes 7 days, sometimes less), no owner is found or comes forward, the council may put the dog to sleep or hand it over to a rescue/shelter like RSPCA or AWL or LDCH to find a home for the dog or PTS.

I don't know what the rules are in WA. I tried to look it up once but I think it made my head hurt it was so confusing.

The RSPCA would know.

So theoretically if WA is like other states (perhaps unlikely), then the abandoned pups should have been reported or taken in to the council and then via the council system, ownership could have been transferred to the rescue. At this point the original reporter of abandoned puppies would have no claim on them at all, and would be unlikely to be able to bully the council pound into surrendering them, though payment of an agreed fee or buying a drink at the pub has been known to work in some places to get council staff to do what is not strictly according to the rules.

If the southern rescues don't get their act together regards documentaton and verification of ownership, they may find themselves in hot water for "receipt of stolen goods" among other things.

[sunshiine]

IMO the rescue organisation needs to grow some balls.

I assume, in some cases of rescue there are going to be some unsavoury characters involved and oyu are going to have to be able to stand up to some bullying etc. It's not all going to be sunshine and rainbows with the types of people who abandon and abuse their pets.

I am quite disappointed that anyone would give in to bullying an dhand the puppies back, specially someone who is supposedly working in rescue with what should be the best interest of the animal.

Probably read it all wrong but meh...

Yes, I do agree with you on this!

[sunshiine]

My first question (like some others I see), was where was the surrender documentation? Isn't is a legal requirement for rescue to have a person surrendering a dog sign the dog over to them? Certainly being bullied in this manner is an issue, but without this documentation the rescue organisation/rescuer doesn't have a leg to stand on and could themselves be charged with 'theft' if they withold the dog when a surrendering (or otherwise rightful) owner wants the dog back (at ANY point, even after the dog has been rehomed!).

This is my beef with some groups down here its all

"she'll be right mate" There needs to be a code of ethics or at least conduct so all groups operate under the same rules to stop any negativity on either side. I have had that many disagreements on the sub standard practice of certain groups that I have given up!

My Head hurts really until their is across the board monitoring not much can be done because ( down here) most want to save EVERY animal and thats NOT possible.

J

I do agree with you. There seemed to be no chain of command or rules to hold up to the demands of the puppy claimant!

and trust me, I was VERY confused about the whole thing! (hence asking far too many questions now) lol

[OSoSwift]

I am guessing that maybe correct process of surrending the puppies was not done. If the puppies were signed over to the rescue they could demand all they liked but have no legal ownership of the puppies so could go jump. If they tried to forcibly take them, then the police should have been called.

I am also interested as to how they got the foster carers address??? I would be more than a little annoyed if my address was given out to a nasty piece of work that liked to bully to get what they want.

However if the do not follow the correct process of gaining ownership of the animals in their care this sort of thing will continue to happen. Which is extremely upsetting for people like yourself.

[Wazzat Xolo]

Wendy

Isnt your daughter in law the President of the South West Animal Rescue Group ??

J

Hi to everyone who posted above, I have just read your comments and realize that my OP was a real barrage and probably very confusing.

I am not a dog breeder but thought the best people to ask would be professional dog breeders. (as I have been a horse breeder for over thirty years, I am aware of many "issues" in my own industry and the reality that dishonest/ugly things go on regardless of how hard genuine breeders try to ensure otherwise)

The thing is, I am confused over what just happened, but like many of you..."I smelled a rat"

The suspicions lie NOT with the local rescue organization - I felt something underhand has happened with the actual "finding of abandoned puppies".

You see, someone reported these puppies as abandoned and got the care organization to take them in and heal/care for them until they were healthy (obviously one died, so they must have started out in a poor condition and very young, approx 5-6 weeks of age)

So there was NO breeder in this part of the story. It begins and ends with a person who claims to have found them "dumped", who has given them to a care agency to "rescue" , rehabilitate and rehome, and then sold them out from under the care agency and demanded them back. I was just curious if this site has anyone recording stolen puppies? I just got the feeling that maybe they were NOT dumped/abandoned, but perhaps stolen? (just a hunch, sorry, I guess I sound like a conspiracy theorist, though I know these things can happen)

Okay, am going out on a limb but because the whole issue seemed very suspicious, I don't know what more to say.

I thought I would approach a group of registered breeders to hear your thoughts.

And I thought by making the enquiry here, if there was actually any puppies stolen, someone might know about it.

I only mentioned about the tails as I was under the impression it was illegal here in WA to dock puppies' tails, so thought these pups came from another state (though I am not so naive as to think it still does not happen) It was just another "clue" to where maybe these pups had come from. Obviously I was misinformed about tail docking being illegal in WA. (apologies) The tails iissue was just another query. You as breeders would know about this, I do not claim to, but just thought I would mention it as the pups seem so young to have had their tails removed and then, if they WERE dumped, why would the owner bother docking their tails if they did not want them? (all seems very odd)

Seems like I have opened up a can of worms in just making this enquiry and apologize for starting any debate or deemed a criticism of care agencies in general. (That was not my intent) You see, the thing that really upset me was how these genuine people who care about saving dogs and cats can get taken for granted and bullied or walked over and my intent here was to try to work out what happened or what could be done to prevent it happening again, especially if at some point, my comments exposed the dangers of care/rescue agencies being USED by people with ill intent.. AGain I say, it all smelled bad, not from the point of view of the carers, but the people who surrendered the pups in the first place.

AND YES, the obvious problem here perhaps is NO paperwork/records done for dogs being surrendered (only for dogs as they go out for adoption).

So the system is open for abuse by people as in this case, getting the care agency to do all the work, then swooping back in to claim the puppies.

It seemed to me very possible that IF (and I still say IF) the pups were stolen, it would be logical that they get handed to a care organization and then retrieved later (as in the rather heavy handed method in this case). Am I out of line for thinking this happens? Again, I am only asking you people as professional breeders ?

Sorry for concerning you, I just was concerned about what has happened, again, not because my kids and I missed out on adopting some beautiful pups, but more so because I feel sorry for the registered rescue group being abused in this way.

[Aussienot]

My take from the information that has been presented: Good intentions and meaning well is not enough. The rescue group would be less open to "abuse" if they had more solid, documented processes.

Getting documented identification on the person handing over the dog should be a standard practice. The group also needs a surrender form that makes the person sign that 1) they are the legal owner of the dog and 2) that they are irrevocably handing over ownership to the rescue.

This would have made them legal owners, and the person who took the puppies back could be rightfully stopped.

This group also needs to think about privacy and protection for their foster carers.

[sunshiine]

No Jacqi, I don't even have a daughter in law. My son is only ten LOL!

And have no knowledge of anyone in the group you mention.

This has been my first experience with ANY canine rescue group.

w

Wendy

Isnt your daughter in law the President of the South West Animal Rescue Group ??

J

[sunshiine]

Exactly! I agree and hope that the least that results from this ugly incident will be what you described.

(tho would be nice to see the bullies held to task over their "suspect" behaviour too! I am a big fan for fighting injustice, though I think that is a battle rarely won)

:-))

My take from the information that has been presented: Good intentions and meaning well is not enough. The rescue group would be less open to "abuse" if they had more solid, documented processes.

Getting documented identification on the person handing over the dog should be a standard practice. The group also needs a surrender form that makes the person sign that 1) they are the legal owner of the dog and 2) that they are irrevocably handing over ownership to the rescue.

This would have made them legal owners, and the person who took the puppies back could be rightfully stopped.

This group also needs to think about privacy and protection for their foster carers.

[Souff]

Somebody correct me if I am wrong and bring me up to speed ......

I have been under the impression for some time that is now rare for PUPPIES to be abandoned, found in a box by the roadside, etc. Kittens still get left in a box with a bricK, my sources tell me but it is not usually the case to find puppies in the box.

I had assumed that this is now a rarer occurrence because pet shops will take young unvaccinated puppies and flog them for anyone who doesn't want to raise them for a few more weeks. I have had unwanted pups given to me as young as 3 weeks old (!) by disgusting twerps. Seems it is easier to give the responsibility to others than to abandon them in a box and that can only be a good thing if the pups end up in the right hands.

So, from the minute I first read it, I found the notion of someone finding these pups to be very odd.

Then, after "finding" these pups they handed them to carers to look after. How very noble.

Had these noble "finders" later rocked up to my door, or sent somebody else along to do their dirty work, they would have been told to GO AWAY.

They might have even been told that the pups were no longer here! Imagine that? Pups are GONE. Sold. All gone! No more left.

Trespassing is a crime. If I have to tell somebody that they are trespassing because they are not welcome on my property, I will do just that.

And if they dont leave, then I WILL call the police. I dont need to be a bully to deal with a bully, I am happy outsource that job to the cops.

And if later asked by the police whose pups they were (if they did in fact find any pups here), I would tell them "MINE".

They would then have to prove that they are NOT MINE. And puppies don't tell tales (docked or not docked).

I would hope that anyone who is truly looking for the best interests of animals would do similarly, and yes, have some legal paperwork in place too!

I am not going to go into details but rescue people are not all saints. Sorry Sunshiine, but that is human nature sometimes, even in rescue. Live and learn.

I totally agree with what Lanabanana said. True animal carers will PROTECT the animals from bullies.

I suppose that is because we know that if people bully other people, then they are likely to bully animals too.

Hope your children can enjoy a nice puppy from a breeder who cares where their pups go.

Souff

[Wazzat Xolo]

Its all ok, am going to help Sunshiine find the dog/s she is after!!

Have emailed her about some of the "goings on" where I reside!! and I am updating with info on available dogs from reputable and Ethical people

J

[sunshiine]

Yes Souff, a sad and ironic take on this matter, but definitely true - I do agree.

Of course I realize these things now, though went into the adoption process obviously far too naive and trusting, assuming by giving a rescue pup/puppies a home with my family and another for my elderly parents all from one place, I would be "making a difference" to a world where there are far too many unwanted animals.

I just hope that everyone learned a lesson but we all know that the Cruella de Vils of this world never will. For some, money, image, and power will always come first.

Peace.

Somebody correct me if I am wrong and bring me up to speed ......

I have been under the impression for some time that is now rare for PUPPIES to be abandoned, found in a box by the roadside, etc. Kittens still get left in a box with a bricK, my sources tell me but it is not usually the case to find puppies in the box.

I had assumed that this is now a rarer occurrence because pet shops will take young unvaccinated puppies and flog them for anyone who doesn't want to raise them for a few more weeks. I have had unwanted pups given to me as young as 3 weeks old (!) by disgusting twerps. Seems it is easier to give the responsibility to others than to abandon them in a box and that can only be a good thing if the pups end up in the right hands.

So, from the minute I first read it, I found the notion of someone finding these pups to be very odd.

Then, after "finding" these pups they handed them to carers to look after. How very noble.

Had these noble "finders" later rocked up to my door, or sent somebody else along to do their dirty work, they would have been told to GO AWAY.

They might have even been told that the pups were no longer here! Imagine that? Pups are GONE. Sold. All gone! No more left.

Trespassing is a crime. If I have to tell somebody that they are trespassing because they are not welcome on my property, I will do just that.

And if they dont leave, then I WILL call the police. I dont need to be a bully to deal with a bully, I am happy outsource that job to the cops.

And if later asked by the police whose pups they were (if they did in fact find any pups here), I would tell them "MINE".

They would then have to prove that they are NOT MINE. And puppies don't tell tales (docked or not docked).

I would hope that anyone who is truly looking for the best interests of animals would do similarly, and yes, have some legal paperwork in place too!

I am not going to go into details but rescue people are not all saints. Sorry Sunshiine, but that is human nature sometimes, even in rescue. Live and learn.

I totally agree with what Lanabanana said. True animal carers will PROTECT the animals from bullies.

I suppose that is because we know that if people bully other people, then they are likely to bully animals too.

Hope your children can enjoy a nice puppy from a breeder who cares where their pups go.

Souff

[Steve]

I see this kind of stuff every day of the week.

Rescue has to get the stuff in place to cover themselves before they take a dog especially if they are not incorporated and don't have insurances.

You have to have your paper work in place. You have to have policies and procedures WRITTEN down so everyone knows exactly what you have to do before you take one single dog.

You have to record things like tails docked and the person who is handing them over explaining what they know of this so when the new owners get the cops or Police to ask questions they can get the answers and so can you.

you cant just take dogs off someone who says they found them - there are laws which say what has to be done with them.If its not someone who is saying they are the owner and who is prepared to sign the paper work to let you off the hook if someone says they were stolen you cant accept them.

You have to have that paper work done and dusted BEFORE you take the dog .You cant just think you can go back later on.

You make rescue look bad and that will lead to more laws which will run half of rescue out of business and a distrust from the community which impacts on all rescue groups.

You also stand the risk of losing your houses, having charges laid and at the least a hell of a lot of stress.

The MDBA has everything you need to help you to do this. If you need help - say so.

[Souff]

I see this kind of stuff every day of the week.

Rescue has to get the stuff in place to cover themselves before they take a dog especially if they are not incorporated and don't have insurances.

You have to have your paper work in place. You have to have policies and procedures WRITTEN down so everyone knows exactly what you have to do before you take one single dog.

You have to record things like tails docked and the person who is handing them over explaining what they know of this so when the new owners get the cops or Police to ask questions they can get the answers and so can you.

you cant just take dogs off someone who says they found them - there are laws which say what has to be done with them.If its not someone who is saying they are the owner and who is prepared to sign the paper work to let you off the hook if someone says they were stolen you cant accept them.

You have to have that paper work done and dusted BEFORE you take the dog .You cant just think you can go back later on.

You make rescue look bad and that will lead to more laws which will run half of rescue out of business and a distrust from the community which impacts on all rescue groups.

You also stand the risk of losing your houses, having charges laid and at the least a hell of a lot of stress.

The MDBA has everything you need to help you to do this. If you need help - say so.

Excellent advice for anyone who rescues dogs, or is thinking of doing rescue. It is full of risk and you can stand to lose a lot if you don't do as stated above.

Souff