Puppy "laundering" Or Stolen Puppies?

[sunshiine]

This is a really unusual question but I thought asking it amongst legitimate breeders might be a good place to start.

Does anyone know of three terrier puppies that were stolen about 5-6 weeks ago?

The pups have been handed in to a care organization in western australia but because their tails were docked I thought maybe they had come from the east (I have been told that this is not legal to dock tails in WA)

The puppies appear to be wire haired, jack russell pups or a very similar breed or even cross.

The reason I am asking is that I have just touched upon a very unpleasant experience with adopting a rescue dog through a legitimate care organization and have seen that care organization suffer at the hands of a third part and some dishonest dealing. I won't mention the name of the organization here as the people concerned are very honest, kind and also very upset over what has happened and feel powerless to prevent it.

This has been disturbing me for the past few days.

We recently went thru the process of adopting two puppies from this well known Animal Rescue group in the southwest (I got the listing the day it appeared on the netrescue site, visited the carer the next morning, and my children and I loved the puppies, paid a deposit and did all the adoption paperwork) However, before we could go back to pick them up, the person who had "supposedly found" the puppies abandoned and had handed them to the A.R.Group, phoned, insisted the pups were hers as she had sold them, sent the purchaser to the foster carer's house and took the pups. There was a lot of threats made to the foster carers, and because they were bullied they handed the puppies over.

Apparently this woman had sold the pups prior to giving them to this Animal Rescue organization!!! which seems very suspicious to me!

Now I get a very bad feeling about this and wonder if there is a bit of "puppy laundering" going on in this area.

You see, I viewed these puppies and they were beautiful and obviously well bred (rough coated jack russel or perhaps cross breed terrier pups). They had however arrived at the foster carer's quite neglected, very young (only about six weeks old) with their tails lopped off. There were originally three pups but one died.

I know that tail docking is illegal in WA, so wonder if the pups were stolen from the east coast or just cruelly docked here in WA.

I also wonder if the pups were just handed to this care organization to make it look legitimate for the person who "perhaps" took them, or was selling them on for the person who stole them?

I am upset, not only because my children and I loved these pups and would have liked to have given them a home, but MORE SO because the kind women at the dog rescue place give freely of their time and resources and should not have that generosity abused by whoever is behind this "deal". OBviously this woman did not pay the rescue organization their adoption fee to get the pups back and they are now way out of pocket for expenses whereas she has sold the pups and made money on them.

Does this sound very suspicious to your members? Because it sure sounds ugly and suspicious to me!

I wonder where I can go to find out if puppies have been stolen, or if there is any way to follow this up. I am told by the foster carers that this has happened before and will continue to happen unless they change the way they accept or take in rescue dogs and puppies (unfortunately, to make this more stringent and tested, it means a lot of rescue dogs will then fall thru the cracks....). I have not written the name of the care organization as yet as they have also been the victims here and are very distressed, but just wanted to talk to someone about this matter anonymously without creating anymore problems for the ladies who are kind, honest carers (and volunteers). I am trying to encourage them to take this matter further and have it investigated.

I was wondering if anyone on this site has any thoughts on this matter?

thank you

Wendy

[Souff]

All can say is that I am really confused after reading this.

I will have to read it again.

Souff

[Gilypoo]

So basically you went to get 2 puppies from a rescue organisation, you paid the deposit, but when you went to collect the puppies the rescue organisation told you that the person who said they found the puppies was actually the owner/ breeder of the puppies in the first place, therefore the organisation gave the puppies back to her.

Is that right?

Just trying to simplify things

[Wazzat Xolo]

This is a really unusual question but I thought asking it amongst legitimate breeders might be a good place to start.

Does anyone know of three terrier puppies that were stolen about 5-6 weeks ago?

The pups have been handed in to a care organization in western australia but because their tails were docked I thought maybe they had come from the east (I have been told that this is not legal to dock tails in WA)

The puppies appear to be wire haired, jack russell pups or a very similar breed or even cross.

The reason I am asking is that I have just touched upon a very unpleasant experience with adopting a rescue dog through a legitimate care organization and have seen that care organization suffer at the hands of a third part and some dishonest dealing. I won't mention the name of the organization here as the people concerned are very honest, kind and also very upset over what has happened and feel powerless to prevent it.

This has been disturbing me for the past few days.

We recently went thru the process of adopting two puppies from this well known Animal Rescue group in the southwest (I got the listing the day it appeared on the netrescue site, visited the carer the next morning, and my children and I loved the puppies, paid a deposit and did all the adoption paperwork) However, before we could go back to pick them up, the person who had "supposedly found" the puppies abandoned and had handed them to the A.R.Group, phoned, insisted the pups were hers as she had sold them, sent the purchaser to the foster carer's house and took the pups. There was a lot of threats made to the foster carers, and because they were bullied they handed the puppies over.

Apparently this woman had sold the pups prior to giving them to this Animal Rescue organization!!! which seems very suspicious to me!

Now I get a very bad feeling about this and wonder if there is a bit of "puppy laundering" going on in this area.

You see, I viewed these puppies and they were beautiful and obviously well bred (rough coated jack russel or perhaps cross breed terrier pups). They had however arrived at the foster carer's quite neglected, very young (only about six weeks old) with their tails lopped off. There were originally three pups but one died.

I know that tail docking is illegal in WA, so wonder if the pups were stolen from the east coast or just cruelly docked here in WA.

I also wonder if the pups were just handed to this care organization to make it look legitimate for the person who "perhaps" took them, or was selling them on for the person who stole them?

I am upset, not only because my children and I loved these pups and would have liked to have given them a home, but MORE SO because the kind women at the dog rescue place give freely of their time and resources and should not have that generosity abused by whoever is behind this "deal". OBviously this woman did not pay the rescue organization their adoption fee to get the pups back and they are now way out of pocket for expenses whereas she has sold the pups and made money on them.

Does this sound very suspicious to your members? Because it sure sounds ugly and suspicious to me!

I wonder where I can go to find out if puppies have been stolen, or if there is any way to follow this up. I am told by the foster carers that this has happened before and will continue to happen unless they change the way they accept or take in rescue dogs and puppies (unfortunately, to make this more stringent and tested, it means a lot of rescue dogs will then fall thru the cracks....). I have not written the name of the care organization as yet as they have also been the victims here and are very distressed, but just wanted to talk to someone about this matter anonymously without creating anymore problems for the ladies who are kind, honest carers (and volunteers). I am trying to encourage them to take this matter further and have it investigated.

I was wondering if anyone on this site has any thoughts on this matter?

thank you

Wendy

Having been involved with the SW rescue groups I totally understand, there unfortuantely is a lot of trust with these lovely people and they can at best only take peoples word! Unfortunatley they are not trained in mnay rescue aspects and situtaions like above continue to happen, if its SAFE I would be contactinmg the founder Sue Hedley, she would love to hear and is passionate about any problems that may arise, the other group SWAR you may PM me.

Dogs under Aus law are classed as chattels and therefore can be leaglly stolen and prosecutions/charges followed up, the proof and the availability is the hard part!

Good luck

[Souff]

All can say is that I am really confused after reading this.

I will have to read it again.

Souff

OK, so you were going to adopt 2 Rough Coated JRT pups from an animal rescue place.

Then a breeder phones you and says NO, you cant have them.

Breeder sends some people round to tell the Animal Rescue place to hand them over.

And the Animal Rescue place just handed them over?

Now, why would they do that?

Because they were threatened?

Did the breeder prove to them that they were in fact the breeder's pups? They sound too young to have been microchipped.

I smell a rat here and I suspect it could be living at the Animal Rescue place.

Just out of interest, did the Animal Rescue place give you the name of this breeder?

Souff

Have just re-read the OP again and sorry, my mistake, it was not the breeder of the pups who took them back, it was " the person who supposedly found the abandoned pups".

So what legal claim does this person have to ownership, and do they have the right to sell them? I doubt it.

As I say, I smell a rat in all of this.

Edited October 4, 2010 by Souff

[Wazzat Xolo]

So basically you went to get 2 puppies from a rescue organisation, you paid the deposit, but when you went to collect the puppies the rescue organisation told you that the person who said they found the puppies was actually the owner/ breeder of the puppies in the first place, therefore the organisation gave the puppies back to her.

Is that right?

Just trying to simplify things

oops well i read it diff, can the OP clarify please ?

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

WA was the only place you could get tails docked, so if they've made it illegal there, then there is no place where it is legal to get tails docked in Australia. As far as I knew, it was legal if a vet in WA did it while the dog/puppy was anaethestised. Has this changed?

The Eastern states do not allow it unless the tail is so badly injured or diseased that the best interests of the dog's health requires the tail to be docked - and then it must be done by a veterinarian while the animal is anaethestised.

If I was the rescue organisation - I would have gotten some id or the licence plate of the car of the person who gave up the animals and then the person who "reclaimed" them and reported them to RSPCA - for neglect, and police for fraud. Ie they sold the animals when they didn't own them - either to the unknown "buyers" or to the rescue organisation.

I'm not sure what part of the process you describe suggests the puppies were stolen - but if there is a suggestion of this, then again - surely the police should be involved. I also don't understand why you think the puppies were "well bred". Crosses are not usually considered "well bred" in the general dog breeder community. They're usually considered unfortunate accidents or the (evil) work of puppy mills or back yard breeders who don't really consider the best interests of the parent dogs or puppies ie health checks from genetic to vaccinations are not likely to be done.

Edited for clarity - I knew what I meant but it isn't what I typed.

Edited October 4, 2010 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[RuralPug]

It sounds to me as though the rescue needs to learn more about getting proper surrender papers signed - or are you saying that the pups were stolen from the breeder and handed into rescue?

[Souff]

WA was the only place you could get tails docked, so if they've made it illegal there, then there is no place where it is illegal to get tails docked in Australia. As far as I knew, it was legal if a vet in WA did it while the dog/puppy was anaethestised. Has this changed?

The Eastern states do not allow it unless the tail is so badly injured or diseased that the best interests of the dog's health requires the tail to be docked - and then it must be done by a veterinarian while the animal is anaethestised.

If I was the rescue organisation - I would have gotten some id or the licence plate of the car of the person who gave up the animals and then the person who "reclaimed" them and reported them to RSPCA - for neglect, and police for fraud. Ie they sold the animals when they didn't own them - either to the unknown "buyers" or to the rescue organisation.

I'm not sure what part of the process you describe suggests the puppies were stolen - but if there is a suggestion of this, then again - surely the police should be involved. I also don't understand why you think the puppies were "well bred". Crosses are not usually considered "well bred" in the general dog breeder community. They're usually considered unfortunate accidents or the (evil) work of puppy mills or back yard breeders who don't really consider the best interests of the parent dogs or puppies ie health checks from genetic to vaccinations are not likely to be done.

I am more than a little flummoxed as to why tails have even been mentioned.

Surely the most important parts here are that the OP was unable to proceed with the purchase of the 2 puppies that she had her heart set on, paid a deposit on, and had signed an application for?

What the hell have tails got to do with it?

Souff

[Hairy Maclary]

Was your deposit returned?

How did the "purchaser" get the foster carer's address?

Did the foster carers report the threats to police?

[Gilypoo]

IMO I think that OP needs to clarify the situation in simple terms before everyone gets all high and mighty about what is right and wrong and what is relevant and not relevant...

The situation needs to be broken down so all aspects can be addressed then the wise DOLers can give their opinions..

[Diva]

I am more than a little flummoxed as to why tails have even been mentioned.

Surely the most important parts here are that the OP was unable to proceed with the purchase of the 2 puppies that she had her heart set on, paid a deposit on, and had signed an application for?

What the hell have tails got to do with it?

Souff

I think the tail docking is a red herring. The OP thought having docked tails may have meant they were from another state. We know that is not correct.

Sounds to me like they may have been cross-bred or BYB puppies the breeders couldn't sell or didn't want to raise, so they dumped them on rescue with a bogus story, then they did get a sale - so they went and got them back so they could make a buck on them. Or maybe they were stolen and the same scenario played out.

I guess getting better surrender documentation would help, but if someone threatened the foster carers it would not always be feasible to hold out, whatever the paperwork. The threats if serious enough should be a police matter. The other way to deal with it would to be much more selective about what pups the rescue accepts but as the OP notes that has its own issues.

Edited October 4, 2010 by Diva

[Souff]

I am more than a little flummoxed as to why tails have even been mentioned.

Surely the most important parts here are that the OP was unable to proceed with the purchase of the 2 puppies that she had her heart set on, paid a deposit on, and had signed an application for?

What the hell have tails got to do with it?

Souff

I think the tail docking is a red herring. The OP thought having docked tails may have meant they were from another state. We know that is not correct.

Sounds to me like they may have been cross-bred or BYB puppies the breeders couldn't sell or didn't want to raise, so they dumped them on rescue with a bogus story, then they did get a sale - so they went and got them back so they could make a buck on them.

I guess getting better surrender documentation would help, but if someone threatened the foster carers it would not always be feasible to hold out, whatever the paperwork. The threats if serious enough should be a police matter. The other way to deal with it would to be much more selective about what pups the rescue accepts but as the OP notes that has its own issues.

I agree it is a red herring and it is not relevant to the REAL problem.

To the original poster, may I suggest that you contact one of the many terrier breeders about buying a puppy for your children.

I would not be dealing with anyone who supposedly gave away puppies to somebody who bullied them. They are not acting in the animals best interests and there are better ways of dealing with bullies than giving in to them.

Souff

[oakway]

To the OP.

If you wish to purchase puppies go the Ethical registered breeders that are registered with the controlling body of your state.

[Wazzat Xolo]

Either way it has once again highlighted the rescues in the South West need more training!

This is not a stand a lone case, a lot of experienced animal people have tried to help but the term used was

Maybe now they will get some training in their dealings!

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I agree about the red herrings.

Puppies were surrendered - puppies were reclaimed. Something went wrong.

If nothing else - the "reputable" rescue should be getting more ID info from the people who surrender the puppies - similar to what Cash Converters or other pawn shops are supposed to do eg write down the drivers licence ID, check the photo looks like them, ask for proof of dog rego or ownership, write the car licence plate down and ask to see a recent electricity bill with their name on it ie proof of address. Get them to sign a document of transfer of ownership ie a contract in writing. If this puts off dodgy people, that might be a good thing.

What do the RSPCA do?

And if people come back and use imtimidating tactics to try to get the puppies back or say they were stolen, the police should be called. Because you don't know if it was the first people that stole the puppies or the second lot of people that stole the puppies. I can see things like this playing out during relationship break ups. He takes the puppies and dumps them and she wants them back or whatever. If there is no proof of ownership, I reckon neither of them have a claim. But at the same time you don't want angry people busting things with baseball bats.

[HollyMilo]

[

Edited October 4, 2010 by HollyMilo

[espinay2]

My first question (like some others I see), was where was the surrender documentation? Isn't is a legal requirement for rescue to have a person surrendering a dog sign the dog over to them? Certainly being bullied in this manner is an issue, but without this documentation the rescue organisation/rescuer doesn't have a leg to stand on and could themselves be charged with 'theft' if they withold the dog when a surrendering (or otherwise rightful) owner wants the dog back (at ANY point, even after the dog has been rehomed!).

Edited October 4, 2010 by espinay2

[Wazzat Xolo]

My first question (like some others I see), was where was the surrender documentation? Isn't is a legal requirement for rescue to have a person surrendering a dog sign the dog over to them? Certainly being bullied in this manner is an issue, but without this documentation the rescue organisation/rescuer doesn't have a leg to stand on and could themselves be charged with 'theft' if they withold the dog when a surrendering (or otherwise rightful) owner wants the dog back (at ANY point, even after the dog has been rehomed!).

This is my beef with some groups down here its all

"she'll be right mate" There needs to be a code of ethics or at least conduct so all groups operate under the same rules to stop any negativity on either side. I have had that many disagreements on the sub standard practice of certain groups that I have given up!

My Head hurts really until their is across the board monitoring not much can be done because ( down here) most want to save EVERY animal and thats NOT possible.

J

[sunshiine]

Hi to everyone who posted above, I have just read your comments and realize that my OP was a real barrage and probably very confusing.

I am not a dog breeder but thought the best people to ask would be professional dog breeders. (as I have been a horse breeder for over thirty years, I am aware of many "issues" in my own industry and the reality that dishonest/ugly things go on regardless of how hard genuine breeders try to ensure otherwise)

The thing is, I am confused over what just happened, but like many of you..."I smelled a rat"

The suspicions lie NOT with the local rescue organization - I felt something underhand has happened with the actual "finding of abandoned puppies".

You see, someone reported these puppies as abandoned and got the care organization to take them in and heal/care for them until they were healthy (obviously one died, so they must have started out in a poor condition and very young, approx 5-6 weeks of age)

So there was NO breeder in this part of the story. It begins and ends with a person who claims to have found them "dumped", who has given them to a care agency to "rescue" , rehabilitate and rehome, and then sold them out from under the care agency and demanded them back. I was just curious if this site has anyone recording stolen puppies? I just got the feeling that maybe they were NOT dumped/abandoned, but perhaps stolen? (just a hunch, sorry, I guess I sound like a conspiracy theorist, though I know these things can happen)

Okay, am going out on a limb but because the whole issue seemed very suspicious, I don't know what more to say.

I thought I would approach a group of registered breeders to hear your thoughts.

And I thought by making the enquiry here, if there was actually any puppies stolen, someone might know about it.

I only mentioned about the tails as I was under the impression it was illegal here in WA to dock puppies' tails, so thought these pups came from another state (though I am not so naive as to think it still does not happen) It was just another "clue" to where maybe these pups had come from. Obviously I was misinformed about tail docking being illegal in WA. (apologies) The tails iissue was just another query. You as breeders would know about this, I do not claim to, but just thought I would mention it as the pups seem so young to have had their tails removed and then, if they WERE dumped, why would the owner bother docking their tails if they did not want them? (all seems very odd)

Seems like I have opened up a can of worms in just making this enquiry and apologize for starting any debate or deemed a criticism of care agencies in general. (That was not my intent) You see, the thing that really upset me was how these genuine people who care about saving dogs and cats can get taken for granted and bullied or walked over and my intent here was to try to work out what happened or what could be done to prevent it happening again, especially if at some point, my comments exposed the dangers of care/rescue agencies being USED by people with ill intent.. AGain I say, it all smelled bad, not from the point of view of the carers, but the people who surrendered the pups in the first place.

AND YES, the obvious problem here perhaps is NO paperwork/records done for dogs being surrendered (only for dogs as they go out for adoption).

So the system is open for abuse by people as in this case, getting the care agency to do all the work, then swooping back in to claim the puppies.

It seemed to me very possible that IF (and I still say IF) the pups were stolen, it would be logical that they get handed to a care organization and then retrieved later (as in the rather heavy handed method in this case). Am I out of line for thinking this happens? Again, I am only asking you people as professional breeders ?

Sorry for concerning you, I just was concerned about what has happened, again, not because my kids and I missed out on adopting some beautiful pups, but more so because I feel sorry for the registered rescue group being abused in this way.