So A Friend Makes This Comment...

[all that glitters]

What about the animals in factory farms? Oh yeah, chickens aren't cute like puppies so nobody cares. At least puppies get out in a few months - factory farm animals live in the same deplorable conditions for their entire life and then die. Just food for thought ;)

I would have usually left it, but couldn't ignore the "At least puppies get out in a few months" as in then it's all fine and dandy, and there are no ill effects!! I went on to argue with her with the help of another actual dog knowledgeable friend (the girl we were arguing against doesn't even own a dog or know stuff about them) about how there is so much more to it and in fact most dogs from puppy mills are effected in one way or another whether it me mental or physical or social. And often after the mills they end up in glass chambers in pet shops and loose all social development. She got mad and said where are my STATISTICS, she said she has met 'a few' pet shop puppy farm dogs and they are fine and happy!

We kept arguing with her but she is one of those people that you just CAN'T argue with because they only see their view.

And let's not forget the bitches and stud dogs kept in those conditions forever!

ARHH so angry!! :p

[melzawelza]

I do agree with her that no one gives a shit about chickens and other animals because they aren't 'cute' and people don't care what is done as long as they can have cheap, readily available meat.

However, that does not negate the suffering of the parents AND the puppies in puppy mills!! In a perfect world they would both have equal consideration and people would be just as outraged about factory farming of chickens as they are of puppy mills, but hey if they're at least focusing on one of them that's a step in the right direction.

[lovemesideways]

Don't argue, it won't work.

Think of it this way, imagine this girl is wearing a pair of green sunglasses (that she has no idea she's wearing), and you're standing in front of her wearing a white shirt.

She says "Nice green shirt"

you say, "Thanks, but its white"

She says "hah, no, its obviously green"

Nobody can win because you're both 100% sure you're correct. All you see is your point of view.

(hopefully that isn't at all confusing...:p)

[all that glitters]

i agree!! I was totally fine with her comment until she mentioned the puppies part like it didn't really matter. If she had left that out I was all for the mention of factory farms and chickens etc, they suffer just as much

[all that glitters]

Don't argue, it won't work.

Think of it this way, imagine this girl is wearing a pair of green sunglasses (that she has no idea she's wearing), and you're standing in front of her wearing a white shirt.

She says "Nice green shirt"

you say, "Thanks, but its white"

She says "hah, no, its obviously green"

Nobody can win because you're both 100% sure you're correct. All you see is your point of view.

(hopefully that isn't at all confusing...)

That almost confused me as it's 1am! :p She doesn't even own a dog or know things about dogs so for her to base her opinion on meeting a few pet shop/puppy farm dogs that "seem fine" doesn't mean they all are *sigh*

[kendall]

It's not so much the puppies but the parents - THEY don't get out after a few months :p

[lovemesideways]

Don't argue, it won't work.

Think of it this way, imagine this girl is wearing a pair of green sunglasses (that she has no idea she's wearing), and you're standing in front of her wearing a white shirt.

She says "Nice green shirt"

you say, "Thanks, but its white"

She says "hah, no, its obviously green"

Nobody can win because you're both 100% sure you're correct. All you see is your point of view.

(hopefully that isn't at all confusing...)

That almost confused me as it's 1am! :p She doesn't even own a dog or know things about dogs so for her to base her opinion on meeting a few pet shop/puppy farm dogs that "seem fine" doesn't mean they all are *sigh*

Oh I completely agree with you. I can't stand people like that!

To make it worse, she's probably sitting at home going "She thinks she knows everything, I've met the dogs and they're fine rararara bitch bitch whinge!!" 100% sure shes correct.

Its just no fun at all when people have their head so far up there, that they can't see or hear anything but their own shit.

[Ker]

She should have been at my house 18 months ago when I rescued 2 westies from a puppy farm. She would have changed her tune.

[Gayle.]

People do care about the chooks. Plenty of people have lobbied to have egg layers given better conditions etc. One result of that is the large variety of "free range" eggs you now see in the supermarket...not sure that the free range chooks have a fabulous life either but at least they can move around a bit.

The fact is, dogs are bred to be companions for humans. Chooks, sheep, cows etc are not. Dogs have to fit in the social sphere a human creates, and to do that properly, they need a good start to life.

[Scarlet]

Of course a lot of farm animals are treated badly and there are people lobbying for them too but their pain doesn't negate the pain of breeding dogs in puppy mills.

I refuse to buy pork, veal or eggs from caged chooks (I can only hope that the labelling is correct!) but because I care about some farm animals doesn't mean that I can't care about dogs.

A huge difference is that dogs are companion animals and are brought into our homes and lives so their mental state directly effects our children and our society.

Unsocialised puppies can create a lot of problems. :p

[Nekhbet]

I've just had the facebook 'discussion' of the century. Apparently some people are allowed to make sweeping generalisations about pedigree dogs, then when I give them facts I'm the one who has problems, and I'm simply projecting all my previous frustrations and taking thengs out of context.

Hmm because writing that all pedigree breeders simply inbreed so their animals faster over successive generations, and that why do pedigree breeders breed when there is an overpopulation?

Don't drink the cool-aid.

[megan_]

I ididn't interpet her comment like you did. I don't think she was saying puppy mills are okay, she is just saying that some farm animals have a lifetime of suffering.

It's not as if you can only pick one cause...

[Lollipup]

Maybe you could show her the websites with photos of the dogs kept in puppy farms. Just like images of chicken farms, you can't not be disturbed by it.

ETA: Those sites should also have the statistics.

Edited October 3, 2010 by Tenille W

[LizT]

People do care about the chooks. Plenty of people have lobbied to have egg layers given better conditions etc. One result of that is the large variety of "free range" eggs you now see in the supermarket...not sure that the free range chooks have a fabulous life either but at least they can move around a bit.

The fact is, dogs are bred to be companions for humans. Chooks, sheep, cows etc are not. Dogs have to fit in the social sphere a human creates, and to do that properly, they need a good start to life.

Exactly! Dogs were never bred down the ages to be farmed, we befriended them as a pack animal and took them into our pack. The whole pyscology is different.

Certainly chickens need to be farmed with more consideration towards humane conditions. This is s l o w l y happening, although I'm not overly impressed with what passes for "barn laid' at times and free range is sometimes an "eat at Joes' invitiation to foxes.

And finally, my chickens ARE cute! Lovely little brown hens that come running up to me and let me pick them up and pat them. :p

[mackiemad]

but she's not wrong.

yes there was a rally in melbourne recently about puppy farms. but have you seen any rally's for intensively farmed pigs? they are smarter than dogs and their conditions are pretty goddam awful. gaylek: pigs are decidely intelligent social creatures who the latest studies all show that they have the mental age of a 3-4 year old human. they cannot barely move around, they don't see the sun and they only have the bars aroudn them to interact with. they are also instinctively clean animals and they have to stand in their own muck.

and sure some chickens are getting it better, but free range for laying hens just mens they are all shoved in a shed. free range for meat chooks means they are in a sightly less dense shed. they don't produce the omega 3s and other good vitamins that we are used to getting from our meat unless they can scratch and dig aroudn looking for worms etc - unless they're healthy and happy we don't get the full benefit of their meat.

look, i'm not saying she didn't leave out the parents or long term effect on the pup because she did. but what she is saying is that the animals we eat we conviently seem to forget about because it doesn't gel with our need to pay less to eat them. some of them may not be designed to live WITH humans but they are in our care and for our own ends so their lives should not mean any less because they are useful, edible and not often pets.

[all that glitters]

but she's not wrong.

yes there was a rally in melbourne recently about puppy farms. but have you seen any rally's for intensively farmed pigs? they are smarter than dogs and their conditions are pretty goddam awful. gaylek: pigs are decidely intelligent social creatures who the latest studies all show that they have the mental age of a 3-4 year old human. they cannot barely move around, they don't see the sun and they only have the bars aroudn them to interact with. they are also instinctively clean animals and they have to stand in their own muck.

and sure some chickens are getting it better, but free range for laying hens just mens they are all shoved in a shed. free range for meat chooks means they are in a sightly less dense shed. they don't produce the omega 3s and other good vitamins that we are used to getting from our meat unless they can scratch and dig aroudn looking for worms etc - unless they're healthy and happy we don't get the full benefit of their meat.

look, i'm not saying she didn't leave out the parents or long term effect on the pup because she did. but what she is saying is that the animals we eat we conviently seem to forget about because it doesn't gel with our need to pay less to eat them. some of them may not be designed to live WITH humans but they are in our care and for our own ends so their lives should not mean any less because they are useful, edible and not often pets.

Yep I totally agree! I'm all for her bringing up the topic of factory pigs, chickens and the other animals that suffer because we choose to eat meat. The more awareness the better! It was just the way she made out that the puppies aren't affected and that cos she has met a few puppy mill/pet shop dogs that seemed fine, well then most must be fine!

[Gayle.]

but she's not wrong.

yes there was a rally in melbourne recently about puppy farms. but have you seen any rally's for intensively farmed pigs? they are smarter than dogs and their conditions are pretty goddam awful. gaylek: pigs are decidely intelligent social creatures who the latest studies all show that they have the mental age of a 3-4 year old human. they cannot barely move around, they don't see the sun and they only have the bars aroudn them to interact with. they are also instinctively clean animals and they have to stand in their own muck.

and sure some chickens are getting it better, but free range for laying hens just mens they are all shoved in a shed. free range for meat chooks means they are in a sightly less dense shed. they don't produce the omega 3s and other good vitamins that we are used to getting from our meat unless they can scratch and dig aroudn looking for worms etc - unless they're healthy and happy we don't get the full benefit of their meat.

look, i'm not saying she didn't leave out the parents or long term effect on the pup because she did. but what she is saying is that the animals we eat we conviently seem to forget about because it doesn't gel with our need to pay less to eat them. some of them may not be designed to live WITH humans but they are in our care and for our own ends so their lives should not mean any less because they are useful, edible and not often pets.

I realise your point and agree with you, but the fact is that pigs, intelligent as they are, are farmed for slaughter, to provide meat for humans. It doesn't excuse poor animal husbandry, all animals that provide for humans should be treated with kindness and respect and their welfare should be the utmost priority for the farmer. But pigs aren't bred to live in society with humans and no matter what their temperament, most of them are going to live short lives.

That is the big difference between intensively farmed pigs, cows, sheep, chooks and puppies.

Free range is what my chooks do......they have a spacious, grassy, shady run with an awesome coop and house, and they all have names. And they are so cute. Mine are adorable. I just spent the best part of a week shuffling chooks and arranging play dates so I could re-introduce one who'd been ousted by the flock and missing for 10 days.

[GoldenGirl85]

I read somewhere that the 'barn laid' eggs are the only real free range eggs out there (apart from people who have chooks of their own) the pack with the RSPCA logo are barn laid, free range was said to be just like caged except there is no cage (no cage, but still no room to move)

[poodlefan]

"At least puppies get out in a few months"

Actually they get out in under 5 weeks - their parents are stuck there until they can't produce anymore.

I like my puppies like I like my eggs - free range.

[HollyMilo]

I read somewhere that the 'barn laid' eggs are the only real free range eggs out there (apart from people who have chooks of their own) the pack with the RSPCA logo are barn laid, free range was said to be just like caged except there is no cage (no cage, but still no room to move)

Barn laid eggs are from chooks who are able to move freely around a barn but have no access to the outdoors. http://www.hwag.com.au/barn-laid-eggs

Free Range eggs are from chooks who are housed in a barn/shed but also have access to the outdoors for at least 8 hrs per day. http://www.hwag.com.au/free-range-eggs

Edited October 4, 2010 by HollyMilo