Group Stay Gripe

[ness]

No wuffles its not the same as coming across an aggressive dog on a walk. You aren't putting the dog in a position where they are being forced to react in a certain way and you are less constrained with your reaction.

But do agree we can do everything within our power to protect a dog and I guess it comes down to the dog. If it had been my baby green dog in that stay line up I'd have withdrawn. I did weigh up the possible risk to my older dog and decided she had enough history of good experiences that if something should happen it wouldn't impact to the same level. I just felt sorry for the baby green BC who was rushed and upset in the ring. I have seen one minor incident even at training upset dogs to the extent where they haven't been able to get back in the ring. Very sad when you consider the amount of work that goes in to getting a dog to perform at a top level.

I am all for people giving it a go but just wish the rules better protected the dogs. I know one of mine would be fine with a friendly dog coming up to her but the other one won't even want a friendly dog coming up in her face while she is on a stay. How should it be my problem that my dog is trained to perform the exercise and your "friendly" dog who wants to play with everybody comes up an interferes with it in the ring. The trial ring isn't for training a dog its for trialling a dog who has been trained to complete the exercises to the required level.

Like I said they aren't robots so sure you might get a dog who breaks occasionally but people who trial the same dog week after week and have no regard for others cheeses me off no end.

Edited October 5, 2010 by ness

[pie]

Perhaps they could tether the dogs to stakes so that even if they break they can't reach the other dogs?

[Mas1981]

Perhaps they could tether the dogs to stakes so that even if they break they can't reach the other dogs?

Thats a good idea Amy

[ness]

Whatever happened to training the dog to complete the exercise and only entering a dog who was trained .

[pie]

Well obviously that isn't always happening It would be a bit of a safeguard, although I would be a bit worried about people having even less criteria before doing a stay because of it.

[ness]

I would think as a starting point the safe guard of qualifying dogs in separate stays would be a good one to adopt. Would then mean I was only risking my dog against dogs who could actually get through a heel pattern and the other exercises. I won't do stays if I am not on a quallie.

I am sure there are dogs who can get through the individual exercise but who can't do a stay however at least the owners have shown some level of training over the dog to be able to pass the individual exercises.

[RubyStar]

I don't believe the issue is non-qualifying vs qualifying dogs. You could have perfect ringwork and a really crappy stay! Or crappy ringwork and be solid on stays. The issue is when the same offending dogs keep getting put into stays when they shouldn't be, even if they are on a Q.

I very rarely do the stays if we aren't on a Q.

Someone mentioned (ness?) that WA do 2 separate stays, one for Q and one for NQ. I've never seen this happen here

[ness]

ok maybe its changed I know some judges do RubyStar and the only non-qualifying stay I have done was in WA and yes it was a few years ago now but I do know they have used that option over there in the past.

[Ptolomy]

Someone mentioned (ness?) that WA do 2 separate stays, one for Q and one for NQ. I've never seen this happen here

Yep they do but its up to the judge. Open is the most common class for the judge to do 2 separate lots of stays.

[ness]

This is a question for anybody really and its probably already a slightly biased audience but how many people would do a stay in novice or CCD if they aren't sitting on a pass (or alternatively if your in a higher class what is common practice in your particular state).

I know in NSW Syndey metro trials for example I think you have to withdraw after you have failed an exercise (so if you fail heelwork you aren't permitted to do stays anyway). While I don't agree with this as a rule I wonder if that helps alleviate some of the breaking of stay issues that I mentioned.

Any thoughts or comments?

[Tiggy]

I wouldn't do the stays if we weren't on a pass.

[RubyStar]

I withdrew Millie from Novice stays at the Royal. I know she can stay, so I saw no point putting her through it when we had already failed ringwork. Edit: Hope I haven't just jinxed her stays

If I have another dog in the lower classes again, I won't do stays unless we're on a pass. I have only done Open stays with Ruby twice. Once was when she had only failed the retrieve over solid jump (and we were sitting on 189 for our first pass ) and the second stays she was on a Q and going for first place (only because Brookie and Scoota weren't entered and Beans had a blonde moment in the distance control, which we all saw on video ) and the bugger got up in the down stay, after staying put in the sit stay when the dog next to her bolted out of the ring after a car backfired. Soooo close to our first pass ;)

Edited October 5, 2010 by RubyStar

[The Spotted Devil]

This is a question for anybody really and its probably already a slightly biased audience but how many people would do a stay in novice or CCD if they aren't sitting on a pass (or alternatively if your in a higher class what is common practice in your particular state).

I know in NSW Syndey metro trials for example I think you have to withdraw after you have failed an exercise (so if you fail heelwork you aren't permitted to do stays anyway). While I don't agree with this as a rule I wonder if that helps alleviate some of the breaking of stay issues that I mentioned.

Any thoughts or comments?

Ness, I had a really bad trial day once - I was completely exhausted and stressed from Uni/moving house etc and it turned out Zig wasn't 100% either. Anyway, he was really flat and worked terribly. I went to speak with the judge to let her know I was going to withdraw him from the stays and she said she wouldn't allow me to!!! I couldn't believe it - I was ultra polite to begin with but it developed into quite an argument and she refused to back down, even though I said Zig wasn't well. I walked off in tears (remember the exhaustion and stress mentioned previously) and was furious about it. Fortunately, someone I train with had a word to someone who knew the rules inside out and made me go and speak with him. I related the story and he told me to go home with my dog and have a glass of wine and to contact him if I had any trouble - an ill dog (and a stressed handler ) should not be in the ring. And it's not like there weren't plenty of dogs available to assist with stays if necessary.

I've had a dog stand over my Dally in an obedience trial - poor Zig tried to maintain eye contact with me and leaned back until he had to either get up or fall over. I was not impressed that no-one made any attempt to grab the offending dog Fortunately the judge was kind enough to let Zig re-do his sit stay along with another dog that spooked when Zig jumped side-ways into when trying to avoid the offending dog. Zig won the ring

I recall at training once an incident where someone's male dog flew at another dog - both owners were just standing around and not actively training. Shortly after we were about to do stays (club comp) and the numbers meant that the aggressor was next to us. The owner insisted on having the dog off-leash for the stays and I just thought NO WAY will I put my dog through that. I asked to be moved in the line-up as my male is entire and an apparent target for other males plus we had the Royal the following week. I suspect I offended a few people but my dog's safety comes first.

[J...]

This is my horror story about the stays. This was a few years ago when I was competeing in novice with my boy. During the sit stays a german shepherd that was next to Toby got up and stood over him but the judge did nothing so I guess Toby had had enough and barked at the shepherd. He then left the ring but the judge told me to stay where I was :D Thankfully I heard some freinds who were outside the ring call him. I had to wait till the stays were finished till I could go and get him ;)

I've had a dog stand over my Dally in an obedience trial - poor Zig tried to maintain eye contact with me and leaned back until he had to either get up or fall over. I was not impressed that no-one made any attempt to grab the offending dog

These are a bloody disgrace - have Dog 1 get in the face of Dog 2 who doesn't tolerate strange dogs in his/her face and you potentially have a fight on your hands. It happened at my very first obedience trial, thankfully it was the other CCD ring but it should never, ever have gone that far given the body language of the dog who tried to stick the stay.

The damage it can do to a sensitive dog means you could ruin a dog for life. The one I mentioned earlier being stood over in the out of sight stays still struggles their dogs confidence in the ring over 3 years later. It is just wrong! ;)

This is a question for anybody really and its probably already a slightly biased audience but how many people would do a stay in novice or CCD if they aren't sitting on a pass (or alternatively if your in a higher class what is common practice in your particular state).

I know in NSW Syndey metro trials for example I think you have to withdraw after you have failed an exercise (so if you fail heelwork you aren't permitted to do stays anyway). While I don't agree with this as a rule I wonder if that helps alleviate some of the breaking of stay issues that I mentioned.

Any thoughts or comments?

I take the opportunity to do a sit stay if I feel it needs reinforcing and rewarding. I politely excuse myself after the sit stays and I jackpot reward her. Especially if it's only a single trial. I don't tend to if she has a PM trial to do as she is finding the higher level stuff quite tiring. Because I train on my own I don't do stay work with other dogs so trials is pretty much the only chance I get.

That said I feel it's a fine line between reinforcing stays in a trial situation at Open, and not exposing her to risk.

Darcy's stays are rock solid so I know she won't interfere with anyone else.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Jess.

[bedazzledx2]

Yeah it does...just not for a while! Lately we've had really low entries and sometime there are not even three dogs on a pass so have to have stand in dogs anyway. Its the Judges decision and when its a big class, its a great way of splitting the stays. I love it as the qualifying dogs at least have a chance without a non qualifying dog potentially mucking them up. Personally I never do stays unless I'm on a qualifying score.

I don't believe the issue is non-qualifying vs qualifying dogs. You could have perfect ringwork and a really crappy stay! Or crappy ringwork and be solid on stays. The issue is when the same offending dogs keep getting put into stays when they shouldn't be, even if they are on a Q.

I very rarely do the stays if we aren't on a Q.

Someone mentioned (ness?) that WA do 2 separate stays, one for Q and one for NQ. I've never seen this happen here

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Last weekend, during a sit-stay set up, There was a lot of doggy barking and an altercation which lead to a Westie which had already been failed during the heel work and exercises, being removed from the ring. I can't remember which other dog was involved or even if the westie started it.

That day, loads of dogs I've seen work perfectly at training, or even at competiton, failed.

I saw at a mock trial - a dog get up and then go sit on the dog next to it, which continued to do the stay as if nothing had happened. The judge and steward did nothing. This has happened to my dog during training too. And my dog used to be the one that would break, nick off and play chase me with all the instructors in the club.

I haven't started competing yet. But even if we failed the heel work, I'd still want to do the stays. The competition environment is so different to training, it would be hard to give up the opportunity even if it was only practice. But it would depend a lot on why we'd failed the heelwork. If there were possums around, I wouldn't bother trying to do the stays - with our current level of training.

It is interesting learning all the things that can go wrong from outside factors that are not the handler or dog's fault. I hadn't thought about the risk of dog attack during an out of sight stay. I guess you'd want to have a friend looking out for your dog just in case the judge and stewards were not.

[ness]

The owner of the Westie set the dog up for stays and it took off out of the ring inititally. My biggest gripe was the owner said she was withdrawing at that point and then decided once she had spent a little time catching and retrieving her dog that she would then try again. It then took off after the BC next to it.

A lot of dogs found competing over 2 days tiring as lots had done the double trial on the Saturday. Its a tough call to compete two days running especially with an AM/PM trial the day before. I only opted to enter the AM trial on the Saturday because I had Ness in both Open and UD on both days and did finish my weekend with 2 Open passes which I mentioned in the brags thread and nothing to be sneezed at considering she has recently celebrated her tenth birthday .

ETA. MRB mentioned - hard to give up the opportunity even if it was only practice. I would ask this what benefit is there to practicing stays in a trial environment. The dog either does them or doesn't you have no opportunity to correct or reward. If the dog messes up there is absolutely nothing you can do in the ring. Much better to make use of mock trials or other situations where you can go back and reward the dog for staying. There are number of places you can practice a stay which isn't an obedience trial ring.

Edited October 5, 2010 by ness

[bedazzledx2]

What are you achieving? If your dog does the stay perfectly...wonderful...BUT....what if he goes down in the sit stay? or gets up in the down stay? You have just taught your dog that its ok to do it in the ring as the rules of training go out the window! He gets re-enforced for the duration of the stays and you can't do anything about it!!!! Much better to get a small group together and practice away from the ring and be ready to reward for good stays. That's how I do it anyway!

Last weekend, during a sit-stay set up, There was a lot of doggy barking and an altercation which lead to a Westie which had already been failed during the heel work and exercises, being removed from the ring. I can't remember which other dog was involved or even if the westie started it.

That day, loads of dogs I've seen work perfectly at training, or even at competiton, failed.

I saw at a mock trial - a dog get up and then go sit on the dog next to it, which continued to do the stay as if nothing had happened. The judge and steward did nothing. This has happened to my dog during training too. And my dog used to be the one that would break, nick off and play chase me with all the instructors in the club.

I haven't started competing yet. But even if we failed the heel work, I'd still want to do the stays. The competition environment is so different to training, it would be hard to give up the opportunity even if it was only practice. But it would depend a lot on why we'd failed the heelwork. If there were possums around, I wouldn't bother trying to do the stays - with our current level of training.

It is interesting learning all the things that can go wrong from outside factors that are not the handler or dog's fault. I hadn't thought about the risk of dog attack during an out of sight stay. I guess you'd want to have a friend looking out for your dog just in case the judge and stewards were not.

[bedazzledx2]

Snap!!! I replied before reading your post Ness!!!! Right on!!!!

The owner of the Westie set the dog up for stays and it took off out of the ring inititally. My biggest gripe was the owner said she was withdrawing at that point and then decided once she had spent a little time catching and retrieving her dog that she would then try again. It then took off after the BC next to it.

A lot of dogs found competing over 2 days tiring as lots had done the double trial on the Saturday. Its a tough call to compete two days running especially with an AM/PM trial the day before. I only opted to enter the AM trial on the Saturday because I had Ness in both Open and UD on both days and did finish my weekend with 2 Open passes which I mentioned in the brags thread and nothing to be sneezed at considering she has recently celebrated her tenth birthday .

ETA. MRB mentioned - hard to give up the opportunity even if it was only practice. I would ask this what benefit is there to practicing stays in a trial environment. The dog either does them or doesn't you have no opportunity to correct or reward. If the dog messes up there is absolutely nothing you can do in the ring. Much better to make use of mock trials or other situations where you can go back and reward the dog for staying. There are number of places you can practice a stay which isn't an obedience trial ring.

[OSoSwift]

I do not do stays unless I am on a pass.

If we are disqualified already because the dog is off or having a bad day I am not going to risk them going down in a sit stay or moving when there is nothing I can do about it.

Novice stays make me nervous after some of the things I have seen happen at trials. I haven't had a problem at Open level.