Group Stay Gripe

[RallyValley]

Maybe continue the coversation from the brags thread here cause it's very interesting to me. ;)

[RallyValley]

Don't go all quiet now! ;) A quick question in out of sight stays if you have a friend watching and your dog gets up are they allowed to go and get the dog if the stewards aren't quick off the bat?

[ness]

Stewards are suppose to collect the dogs.

[RallyValley]

I found the blog post that earlier got me worrying:

http://misterrugby7.blogspot.com/2010/08/fiasco.html

[J...]

Good idea ValleyCBR. ;)

I have no idea - I know in one recent set of Open stays that the judge was on his own as the only steward was in the hide with the timer. Had one dog try to stand over another and a different dog try to leave the ring. People had to step in from outside the ring as he didn't have a steward to assist. ;)

I think having a friend there is a great idea - if I'd known what was going on at my last stays I would've come back around from the hide and stood beside my dog, regardless of the consequences from the judge. A big dog stood up the moment we left, same dog broke the morning stays as well. Spent the entire time standing while staring at the dogs either side. Darcy was really uncomfortable and dropped, I could see she was still uncomfortable when I returned to her. She's also rock solid in her stays and is a pretty steady dog, but she's soft when it comes to other dogs. I'm hoping it's not going to bother her for the next set of stays. Losing a pass at a stay level due to interference (however subtle) is bloody disappointing but if an incident affects her confidence for stays (or her agility start lines) I will be very unhappy!!

Some of the things I've heard really worry me - like the dog that stood over other dogs in five trials at Open level before a judge twigged and reported it. Another trialler who came around from the hides to see a dog standing over hers and nothing being done about it.

I believe any form of interference that appears to be affecting another dog should be stopped immediately.

[sas]

I saw a Stewart take their sweet ass time last night intervenning.....made me wonder how quickly they are meant to come in after a dog has broken,

[Rusky]

here (WA trials) the judge tells the steward exactly when to intervene though generally the eye contact between steward and judge is enough and no words are spoken. There is no way a judge would allow a "friend" to enter the ring and control the dog.

[whitka]

This is my horror story about the stays. This was a few years ago when I was competeing in novice with my boy. During the sit stays a german shepherd that was next to Toby got up and stood over him but the judge did nothing so I guess Toby had had enough and barked at the shepherd. He then left the ring but the judge told me to stay where I was Thankfully I heard some freinds who were outside the ring call him. I had to wait till the stays were finished till I could go and get him

[spottychick]

This is my horror story about the stays. This was a few years ago when I was competeing in novice with my boy. During the sit stays a german shepherd that was next to Toby got up and stood over him but the judge did nothing so I guess Toby had had enough and barked at the shepherd. He then left the ring but the judge told me to stay where I was Thankfully I heard some freinds who were outside the ring call him. I had to wait till the stays were finished till I could go and get him

What? Maybe I dont understand how all this stuff works but NO WAY would I have "stayed" when my dog is off wandering, especially after an incident with another dog. What sort of authority do these "judges" have?

[Diva]

here (WA trials) the judge tells the steward exactly when to intervene though generally the eye contact between steward and judge is enough and no words are spoken. There is no way a judge would allow a "friend" to enter the ring and control the dog.

Same here. A third person, eg a friend, would not be allowed to enter the ring, but they could be at ringside to take the dog off the steward. When a steward is to intervene would be determined by the judge, sometimes before the stay exercise if the judge briefs on it, or just by a signal in the ring. I usually ask judges how they will handle breaking dogs before we start if I am stewarding, unless I have stewarded for them before and already know what they prefer.

I have to say I haven't seen any interference between dogs for a long time here, perhaps because I usually steward the higher classes.

[pipsqueak]

Unfortunately, in NSW unless a handler or steward is directed to retrieve a dog, they aren't allowed to. Having said that, I've seen handlers go and retrieve their dog without the judges permission (usually in CCD or CD) - and basically have the attitude of "damn the consequences". I think some judges tell handlers to stay instead telling them to retrieve their dogs because they think that sending the handler back may make all the other dogs break. If I ever compete, and my dog breaks, or if my dog is being stood over by another, I know that I will be going to retrieve/protect my dog, then dealing with the consequences from the judge later.

[pipsqueak]

I saw a Stewart take their sweet ass time last night intervenning.....made me wonder how quickly they are meant to come in after a dog has broken,

I just had a quick look at the ANKC rules, but cannot see anything that states this. My understanding is that handlers and stewards are all under the control of the judge and must wait for an instruction from the judge.

[JulesP]

I haven't entered my dog yet as I am concerned about her behavior with other dogs in a stay line up. She is fine as long as they don't look at her, but any fidgeting on their part and she is very unhappy. She would really not appreciate it if I dog stood over her.

Anyway it isn't fair to her or the other dogs at this stage. Very heartbreaking as her other work is lovely.

[wuffles]

The ANKC rules say this: If a dog gets up and starts to roam, the Judge may instruct a Steward, or Handler, to take

the dog away from the other dogs.

I'm only a beginner and haven't trialled yet (but have been to trials and stewarded) but I think sometimes it's difficult to know what the best course of action would be. Some dogs would be more likely to break if the dog beside them stands up, but some dogs would be steady when the dog beside them moves, then break if someone walks towards them to collect the dog. If there is obvious threatening behaviour then of course there should be immediate intervention, but if the behaviour is seemingly innocent, I'm not sure what should be done.

IMO it's just one of those things we have to work with if we want to do obedience trials. Some dogs don't like group stays because of the other dogs, others don't like heelwork for some reason or another, some are difficult with the SFE

Edited October 5, 2010 by wuffles

[ness]

I offered a dog for a set of non-qualifying stays at a trial (never again) but we were half watching our dogs - they were out of sight open stays and all hell broke loose and you can bet I was back to my dog before the judge had said anything. I wasn't going to take the risk.

Same thing in novice if I saw another dog was going to interfere with mine I wouldn't care what the judge said - especially if it was eyeballing or standing over my dog. Would rather deal with the judge later then have to deal with any potential fallout if my dog should be harmed.

And as I said in the original brags thread in future I am definitely going to go with my gut feeling in a situation and even if my dog is on a brilliant score and I know somebody has an unreliable (and aggressive) dog in the stay line up who isn't in a qualifying score I will be withdrawing. There is always another trial.

Edited October 5, 2010 by ness

[RubyStar]

Unfortunately, in NSW unless a handler or steward is directed to retrieve a dog, they aren't allowed to. Having said that, I've seen handlers go and retrieve their dog without the judges permission (usually in CCD or CD) - and basically have the attitude of "damn the consequences".

I was in Novice stays when the dog next to Ruby got up and into her face during the down stay. Wasn't threatening, it wanted to play, and Ruby's tail was wagging furiously but the good girl stayed put. The woman who owned the dog asked if I would like her to get her dog, as the judges and stewards were VERY SLOW to respond, and I said yes please, and she did. There didn't seem to be any consequences from the judge for her doing so This was a VIC judge.

Another trial, a WA judge in the Novice stays told us all in the lineup that if our dog gets up, we must come and get it ourselves, and we're in big trouble if he has to come and intervene!

If my dog is being stood over in a threatening way, stuff the consequences too I say, my dog's confidence and safety is my number 1 priority, not a judge's ruling!

[ness]

Wuffles wrote: IMO it's just one of those things we have to work with if we want to do obedience trials.

Yeah but hang on no dog should have to tolerate another dog being rude or acting aggressive towards it in the ring. We aren't talking about dogs who break because they follow their handler or lay down in a sit stay or otherwise break without interfering with another dog. That all happens and you accept that its part of training but I don't think having an aggressive dog go after your dog in stays is something we should have to work with. Especially when come of these dogs haven't even managed to get through the ring work.

And the frustrating bit is a lot of these dogs are repeat offenders. Things happen sure - but why should somebody with a dog who is known for being unstable put other dogs at risk because of it.

Sorry rant over.

[whitka]

I also had the other trailers telling me dont move, I was still in my teens and very new to trialing and I found that whole situation really daunting especailly having other trialers glearing at me if I dared move

[sas]

Unfortunately, in NSW unless a handler or steward is directed to retrieve a dog, they aren't allowed to. Having said that, I've seen handlers go and retrieve their dog without the judges permission (usually in CCD or CD) - and basically have the attitude of "damn the consequences". I think some judges tell handlers to stay instead telling them to retrieve their dogs because they think that sending the handler back may make all the other dogs break. If I ever compete, and my dog breaks, or if my dog is being stood over by another, I know that I will be going to retrieve/protect my dog, then dealing with the consequences from the judge later.

What are the consequences? You've already failed.

[wuffles]

Wuffles wrote: IMO it's just one of those things we have to work with if we want to do obedience trials.

Yeah but hang on no dog should have to tolerate another dog being rude or acting aggressive towards it in the ring. We aren't talking about dogs who break because they follow their handler or lay down in a sit stay or otherwise break without interfering with another dog. That all happens and you accept that its part of training but I don't think having an aggressive dog go after your dog in stays is something we should have to work with. Especially when come of these dogs haven't even managed to get through the ring work.

And the frustrating bit is a lot of these dogs are repeat offenders. Things happen sure - but why should somebody with a dog who is known for being unstable put other dogs at risk because of it.

Sorry rant over.

I agree with everything you're saying I just think that it's always something that's going to happen so all we can do is prepare our dogs as much as possible and do what we think is necessary to protect them. It's the same as the aggressive dogs you come across on walks - it shouldn't happen but it does.