Nature Vs Nurture

[shelby-001]

About 4 yrs ago i was given a puppy, it was meant to be a foxy x jack russel, but as it grew it was obvious that this was not the case, this pup was getting bigger all the time, we had him for about 18 months and he was getting rougher and rougher as he got older, through not fault to us,

he was walked regulary, loved, had loads of attention, obedienced trained, then one day he got really rough with my daughter and then things went down hill,

he took chunk out of me and knocked my daughter down and went for her throat, he was standing on her chest and she could not get up, i ran over and pushed him off, the next day we took him to the pound, the guys at the pound asked what breed he was and we told him foxy x jack russel, and he then stated that he could see American Pit Bull in him and that that would explain why he was getting vicious, my daughter was heart broken as this was her first puppy

this pup was shown nothing but affection, love, regular walks, played with every day, given all the love in the world, but a mix in his breeding was coming out deadly,

so even a bad dog in a good home can be predisposed to being bad - i guess

Sorry I completely disagree with this.

The fact that your dog may have had APBT in him and the fact that he became "aggressive" towards your daughter are in no way related. And believe me, if he had truely wanted to do damage he most certainly would have.

Most dogs need more than "affection, love, regular walks, played with every day, given all the love in the world". They need rules, structure, disapline and (for some) a LOT of training and mental stimulation. The fact that your dog lashed out may have had very little to do with bad breeding or true aggression and more to do with a combination of the dogs personality, poor pack structure and/or lack of respect for you/your child as the dogs "pack leader". Without seeking the advice of a professional you would not know this.

And taking an "aggressive" dog to the pound is extremely irresponsible IMO. What were they to do with him? Two options there, rehome or PTS - and no-one rehomes an aggressive dog. He should have either been seen be an experienced behaviourist to determine the problem, or humanely euthanased by a vet.

SecretKei I completely agree with your sentiments here, too many misinformed people are prepared to make unfounded generalisations that have no merrit what so ever. This council employee is a prime example.

It happens so often in the media too which is why the poor dogs have a bad reputation in society, uneducated people make unfounded statements. If it happened to a 'race' of the human bread it would be discrimination or slander or something of the like. Ie my shop gets held up and I say it was a man of afghanistan decent because of his skin colour. That's harldy fair now is it, since I have no experience in identifying people's national backgrounds based on appearance. There is any number of nationalities or biracial mixes the person could have been. Point in note: it's a massive assumption that is unfounded, like saying the dog must have APBT in it because it turned aggressive.

I know a number of pure APBT & crosses that are wonderfully natured and live with little kids no problem at all. Ears and tails tugged on, knocked over you name it, they don't care in the slightest.

My two amstaffs are wonderful with my 4 year old nephew, the 4 month old pup nips on occasion but what 4 month old pup doesn't? It's a behaviour we are training her on that isn't acceptable and she listens to my 4 year old nephew when he says no and points his finger at her (at the same time).

My brothers cross (border collie x maltese shitzu - spelling?) is terrible she launches at your face to nip, chews everything and has no concept of no. Clearly the nurture factor is at play here. She believes she is the leader of all three in their family. She gets exercise, play time, love, affection, but has NO boundaries, and is laughed at when she does these 'naughty' things, pushed away and then played with again. Not ignored so she realises she's done wrong. The pack is all out of whack in that house. Now I have nothing against border collie's either, my ex in laws owned the most wonderful bc and my aunty owns 2 amazing shitzu (spelling?) crosses, it's just how they are allowed to behave that varies.

I appreciate you were upset Mackenzie by the experience it wouldn't be pleasant, but I can't tollerate people like the council man that have no idea and give you such false statements with no backing. With the right training from a professional your dog could have been wonderful. No two dogs will react to the same environment and situations in the same manner as another dog and we as their 'leaders' need to learn how to teach each individual so they can be a wonderful part of our pack.

I previously owned a 'bitza' that had no history of parents known, and vets were unable to tell me conclusively what she was, as a pup she looked like a SBT but she grew up nothing like them, or anything else really, she had white fur, black dots on her skin, a similar shape (not size) to a whippet and the few different vets she saw couldn't conclude what she was by appearance, there were thoughts of APBT/SBT/ACD/English Staffordshire Terrier but there was no way to know for sure. That's coming from trained professionals.

Personally IMHO I believe nurture plays a much larger role than nature ever can in the true temperament of a dog. Activity levels, intelligence, natural obedience etc may be more likely to be influenced by nature (breed). Just like some humans are naturally lazy or fitness freaks, naturally intelligent or otherwise. (please don't misinterpret that as me likening dogs to humans, it was merely to make my point clear). Others may see it differently and I'm sure they will express their opinion as well.

[ChristineX]

My take on it is that the genes give the range of what a dog can be, from demonic to saint, and the nurture sets the point at which the dog is. Of course, the 'point' can change if the nurture (environment) changes. But I do think that the range of all possible behaviours is genetic.

[ellz]

Yes and yes.

[SpotTheDog]

I think every dog is different.

At puppy stage, a dog has a personality. Some pups are timid, some are boisterous. Some are nippers, some are snoozers. There's a personality in that tiny little body - regardless of the breed the dog is, you're not just given a shapleless piece of clay that will turn into precisely what you mould - there's writing on the canvas already.

Second to that there are breed characteristics - but I don't agree necessarily that 'agression' is a breed characteristic of any dog. If it were, then fighting dogs wouldn't have to be trained with the cruelty and viciousness that is involved in fighting training in order to create a 'champion fighter' because it would come automatically. I do believe tenacity, courage, intelligence, focus, chase, herd and guard are breed characteristics.

Still, there can be timid rottweiler puppies, dumb border collies, jack russells that aren't inclined to tug and wool, so on so forth.

When you go for a breed you go for characteristics, but it's still not a guarantee you'll have the perfect whatever you were hoping for. How many of us have had GSDs or rotties in our experience that were the gentlest, kindest sweethearts you could ever meet? I know at least one of each - but what's that all about? Is that a failing in the breed because that gentleness and that kindness aren't what those dogs were bred for?

So yes, I agree that there is something to be said for nature, and something to be said for nurture - but I honestly believe the biggest influence on its life outcome is the individual personality of the dog in question.

[Max#1]

Personally IMHO I believe nurture plays a much larger role than nature ever can in the true temperament of a dog. Activity levels, intelligence, natural obedience etc may be more likely to be influenced by nature (breed). Just like some humans are naturally lazy or fitness freaks, naturally intelligent or otherwise. (please don't misinterpret that as me likening dogs to humans, it was merely to make my point clear). Others may see it differently and I'm sure they will express their opinion as well.

In this context I have often wondered when I've seen puppies advertised as 'bred for temperament'....

I had a chance to see again one of my puppy's brothers at puppy pre-school. My puppy was one of the confident ones there, happy to play and not shy. The brother though was so nervous that he was growling and even had a go at his owner's hands (the lady taking the puppy school knew how to handle this, and by the end of the class the little guy was running around playing with the rest having the time of his life). I really wondered how much of that was due to nurture or whether it was an inherited thing.

[shelby-001]

Personally IMHO I believe nurture plays a much larger role than nature ever can in the true temperament of a dog. Activity levels, intelligence, natural obedience etc may be more likely to be influenced by nature (breed). Just like some humans are naturally lazy or fitness freaks, naturally intelligent or otherwise. (please don't misinterpret that as me likening dogs to humans, it was merely to make my point clear). Others may see it differently and I'm sure they will express their opinion as well.

In this context I have often wondered when I've seen puppies advertised as 'bred for temperament'....

I had a chance to see again one of my puppy's brothers at puppy pre-school. My puppy was one of the confident ones there, happy to play and not shy. The brother though was so nervous that he was growling and even had a go at his owner's hands (the lady taking the puppy school knew how to handle this, and by the end of the class the little guy was running around playing with the rest having the time of his life). I really wondered how much of that was due to nurture or whether it was an inherited thing.

Well I guess breeders would want to say nurture, because if it is inherited, I guess that blows 'breeding for temperament' out the window. I would though think that it's nurture myself, but I'm no expert.

[RallyValley]

My take on it is that the genes give the range of what a dog can be, from demonic to saint, and the nurture sets the point at which the dog is. Of course, the 'point' can change if the nurture (environment) changes. But I do think that the range of all possible behaviours is genetic.

Awesome post!

[mackenzie11]

About 4 yrs ago i was given a puppy, it was meant to be a foxy x jack russel, but as it grew it was obvious that this was not the case, this pup was getting bigger all the time, we had him for about 18 months and he was getting rougher and rougher as he got older, through not fault to us,

he was walked regulary, loved, had loads of attention, obedienced trained, then one day he got really rough with my daughter and then things went down hill,

he took chunk out of me and knocked my daughter down and went for her throat, he was standing on her chest and she could not get up, i ran over and pushed him off, the next day we took him to the pound, the guys at the pound asked what breed he was and we told him foxy x jack russel, and he then stated that he could see American Pit Bull in him and that that would explain why he was getting vicious, my daughter was heart broken as this was her first puppy

this pup was shown nothing but affection, love, regular walks, played with every day, given all the love in the world, but a mix in his breeding was coming out deadly,

so even a bad dog in a good home can be predisposed to being bad - i guess

Thats a shame about your pup mackenzie. It's also a shame that the aggression was automatically attributed to Pitbull ancestry. It is impossible to tell if a mixed breed dog would have Pitbull in it, especially if it could pass as Foxy x JRT as a pup. Identifying a Pitbull is not easy, have a look in the BSL forum and you will see what I mean. I own an Amstaff that was identified as a Pitbull by a local council and it lead to all sorts of strife for me. Some will argue Pitbulls are Amstaffs and others say the gap between them is now too wide. Either way they are closely related. My dog is very stable and has never shown signs of aggression, I have also met a few great natured Pitbulls. It can be a hot topic on this forum sometimes as you will probably see. I personally do not accept that Pitbull = Aggressive and feel compelled to defend the breed when this is notion is implied.

Off topic I know. Sorry.

i am glad that you have never had any problems with you pup, i understand that not all pitbulls are bad, i will never know why my pup went the way he did and understand your desire to defend them, i was just pointing out what i was told and my situation, no offence intended

sorry

[Aidan3]

Yes to both, and also yes to their opposites.

Researchers these days look at what is called "gene x environment interactions".

Do you mean the combination of genes and environmental interactions? (If those traits are then inheritable that's almost suggesting epigenetics - a really interesting concept).

What you see is the product of genes multiplied by environment, so yes, a combination. The closer a heritable trait gets to zero, the higher the environmental stimulus needs to be to see that trait.

It's not a straight linear relationship though, for some traits there appears to be a threshold. You won't see the trait at all until an environmental threshold has been crossed. This has been studied extensively in the context of human schizophrenia which appears to be strongly heritable yet not seen as often as you might expect and often not seen at all unless "triggered" by external events.

[mackenzie11]

About 4 yrs ago i was given a puppy, it was meant to be a foxy x jack russel, but as it grew it was obvious that this was not the case, this pup was getting bigger all the time, we had him for about 18 months and he was getting rougher and rougher as he got older, through not fault to us,

he was walked regulary, loved, had loads of attention, obedienced trained, then one day he got really rough with my daughter and then things went down hill,

he took chunk out of me and knocked my daughter down and went for her throat, he was standing on her chest and she could not get up, i ran over and pushed him off, the next day we took him to the pound, the guys at the pound asked what breed he was and we told him foxy x jack russel, and he then stated that he could see American Pit Bull in him and that that would explain why he was getting vicious, my daughter was heart broken as this was her first puppy

this pup was shown nothing but affection, love, regular walks, played with every day, given all the love in the world, but a mix in his breeding was coming out deadly,

so even a bad dog in a good home can be predisposed to being bad - i guess

Sorry I completely disagree with this.

The fact that your dog may have had APBT in him and the fact that he became "aggressive" towards your daughter are in no way related. And believe me, if he had truely wanted to do damage he most certainly would have.

Most dogs need more than "affection, love, regular walks, played with every day, given all the love in the world". They need rules, structure, disapline and (for some) a LOT of training and mental stimulation. The fact that your dog lashed out may have had very little to do with bad breeding or true aggression and more to do with a combination of the dogs personality, poor pack structure and/or lack of respect for you/your child as the dogs "pack leader". Without seeking the advice of a professional you would not know this.

And taking an "aggressive" dog to the pound is extremely irresponsible IMO. What were they to do with him? Two options there, rehome or PTS - and no-one rehomes an aggressive dog. He should have either been seen be an experienced behaviourist to determine the problem, or humanely euthanased by a vet.

SecretKei I completely agree with your sentiments here, too many misinformed people are prepared to make unfounded generalisations that have no merrit what so ever. This council employee is a prime example.

It happens so often in the media too which is why the poor dogs have a bad reputation in society, uneducated people make unfounded statements. If it happened to a 'race' of the human bread it would be discrimination or slander or something of the like. Ie my shop gets held up and I say it was a man of afghanistan decent because of his skin colour. That's harldy fair now is it, since I have no experience in identifying people's national backgrounds based on appearance. There is any number of nationalities or biracial mixes the person could have been. Point in note: it's a massive assumption that is unfounded, like saying the dog must have APBT in it because it turned aggressive.

I know a number of pure APBT & crosses that are wonderfully natured and live with little kids no problem at all. Ears and tails tugged on, knocked over you name it, they don't care in the slightest.

My two amstaffs are wonderful with my 4 year old nephew, the 4 month old pup nips on occasion but what 4 month old pup doesn't? It's a behaviour we are training her on that isn't acceptable and she listens to my 4 year old nephew when he says no and points his finger at her (at the same time).

My brothers cross (border collie x maltese shitzu - spelling?) is terrible she launches at your face to nip, chews everything and has no concept of no. Clearly the nurture factor is at play here. She believes she is the leader of all three in their family. She gets exercise, play time, love, affection, but has NO boundaries, and is laughed at when she does these 'naughty' things, pushed away and then played with again. Not ignored so she realises she's done wrong. The pack is all out of whack in that house. Now I have nothing against border collie's either, my ex in laws owned the most wonderful bc and my aunty owns 2 amazing shitzu (spelling?) crosses, it's just how they are allowed to behave that varies.

I appreciate you were upset Mackenzie by the experience it wouldn't be pleasant, but I can't tollerate people like the council man that have no idea and give you such false statements with no backing. With the right training from a professional your dog could have been wonderful. No two dogs will react to the same environment and situations in the same manner as another dog and we as their 'leaders' need to learn how to teach each individual so they can be a wonderful part of our pack.

I previously owned a 'bitza' that had no history of parents known, and vets were unable to tell me conclusively what she was, as a pup she looked like a SBT but she grew up nothing like them, or anything else really, she had white fur, black dots on her skin, a similar shape (not size) to a whippet and the few different vets she saw couldn't conclude what she was by appearance, there were thoughts of APBT/SBT/ACD/English Staffordshire Terrier but there was no way to know for sure. That's coming from trained professionals.

Personally IMHO I believe nurture plays a much larger role than nature ever can in the true temperament of a dog. Activity levels, intelligence, natural obedience etc may be more likely to be influenced by nature (breed). Just like some humans are naturally lazy or fitness freaks, naturally intelligent or otherwise. (please don't misinterpret that as me likening dogs to humans, it was merely to make my point clear). Others may see it differently and I'm sure they will express their opinion as well.

my pup had training, he was obedience trained - he started that when he was 14 weeks old, when the aggression problems started i enrolled him in a two week intensive obedience course where they take the dog for two weeks and work with them, they rang me and told me after a week, that nothing could be done and that he was too agressive, even they could not fix him, he was very healthy, very horny, he humped everything he could,

he was 12 weeks old when he came to me and was 18 mths old when he left, he was given to my family by my brother who was going to abondon him when he moved out of his house and his new house did not allow pets, so i told him i would look after him, and then we had to let him go.

[mackenzie11]

About 4 yrs ago i was given a puppy, it was meant to be a foxy x jack russel, but as it grew it was obvious that this was not the case, this pup was getting bigger all the time, we had him for about 18 months and he was getting rougher and rougher as he got older, through not fault to us,

he was walked regulary, loved, had loads of attention, obedienced trained, then one day he got really rough with my daughter and then things went down hill,

he took chunk out of me and knocked my daughter down and went for her throat, he was standing on her chest and she could not get up, i ran over and pushed him off, the next day we took him to the pound, the guys at the pound asked what breed he was and we told him foxy x jack russel, and he then stated that he could see American Pit Bull in him and that that would explain why he was getting vicious, my daughter was heart broken as this was her first puppy

this pup was shown nothing but affection, love, regular walks, played with every day, given all the love in the world, but a mix in his breeding was coming out deadly,

so even a bad dog in a good home can be predisposed to being bad - i guess

Sorry I completely disagree with this.

The fact that your dog may have had APBT in him and the fact that he became "aggressive" towards your daughter are in no way related. And believe me, if he had truely wanted to do damage he most certainly would have.

Most dogs need more than "affection, love, regular walks, played with every day, given all the love in the world". They need rules, structure, disapline and (for some) a LOT of training and mental stimulation. The fact that your dog lashed out may have had very little to do with bad breeding or true aggression and more to do with a combination of the dogs personality, poor pack structure and/or lack of respect for you/your child as the dogs "pack leader". Without seeking the advice of a professional you would not know this.

And taking an "aggressive" dog to the pound is extremely irresponsible IMO. What were they to do with him? Two options there, rehome or PTS - and no-one rehomes an aggressive dog. He should have either been seen be an experienced behaviourist to determine the problem, or humanely euthanased by a vet.

on the damage bit - he left a mark on her neck no blood, just a red mark where he tried to bite her, i think i got him off b4 he could do any damage, he was trained at an obedience class and i put him in a 2 week intensive class but they ran me after 1 week and told me that he was too agressive and could not help, i did take him to the vet and discussed my options with him as i did not want to have him put down, and he suggested taking him to the pound and maybe he could find a home with other dogs and NO children,

so you see that is why i took him to the pound - i wanted to give him another chance with another owner, i did not want to just give up on him so easily as to just put him down,

[Flaves]

For example, can a well-bred dog with parents with good temperament in a bad home - go bad?

Yes it can

Or an ill-bred dog end up being in a good home and have no behavioural issues?

yes i believe it can

[Steve]

I believe its mainly nature. As a breeder if I get even a hint a dog wont be able to cope with life the way I expect it to I take it out of any suggestion it may be used for breeding.

I breed Maremmas and Ive placed them in homes where the person they are bonding to has absolutely abused them and kicked hell out of them, bitten them,hit, kicked ,pushed shoved etc and never once not ever have they decided to have even a tiny go back. By the way these people were known to have this potential as they have autism and mental disorders.I watched a 14 year old boy try his heart out to hurt the dog for months - and he did - and the dog trained the kid who has now lived with the dog for 5 years.Now at 19 the kid is no longer violent toward the dog and when the kid looks like getting out of control the dog pacifies him by using its body language. That dog has never growled or snarled or shown any sign it may defend itself and thats what I breed for.

The dogs are placed in with animals that kick hell out of them,butt them, stomp on them at 6 to 8 weeks and they are expected to put up with it and go and hide - act as if they are terrified and NEVER EVER have a go back until the animal they are locked up with sees them as no threat and accepts them as part of their herd or flock etc. and they do.

I sold one to a small hobby farm and the owner rang to complain that the dog wont stay home.She told me that no matter what she does when the chooks go across the road to eat the dog goes with them.She said the dog was sneaky,couldnt be trusted , was jumping fences, going through fences ,wouldnt come when it was called even though she had been training it. Its a dud and she wants her money back if its not possible to train the dog to do as its told and stay inside the yard when the chooks go out. She says its too hard to keep the chooks in her own yard as they are free range.

Why wont the dog do as its being trained to do - after all its the perfect dog when the chooks are at home? Because I made it that way.

I believe you can treat em nice or rotten,you can train em and love em and give em all you've got but when you put them under pressure, or give them the right stimulus - nature cuts in.

Now having said that - there have been some studies with really violent people and monkeys and they have found that when you get that squirt of natural instinct which can make you want to hit someone - or kill em that a chemical cuts in for most of us and counteracts it.Some of us can cope with these things more than others.Not all kids who grow up watching dad punch hell out of Mum or who have the crap beaten out of them grow up to be mass murderers.The studies show that when we are babies and we cry for a feed or comfort our parents usually our Mums pick us up and comfort us , clean us up and feed us etc. The stroking and gentleness etc stimulates us to produce seratonin and the studies seem to tell us that this is something our bodies have to learn to do.If we dont get that mother type experience our bodies are not as good at knowing how to produce the chemical if at all.Monkeys which haven't had this interaction with their Mum's are more prone to aggression than their siblings.

The study they did on one prison in the states among prisoners showed that the one common denominator was probably lack of mother love when the babies were small - whether that be because the mother didn't have those maternal feelings or because the mother was taken away due to illness or death etc.

Ive raised puppies with and without their Mums but Ive always been careful to copy what their Mums do and the pups are handled a lot and stroked and loved from brand new up by humans even if their Mum is with them so maybe that also impacts some on the outcome.

It would be good to separate several litters and treat them differently from brand new up as they have done with monkeys but I'm not up for deliberately breeding dogs which will be unpredictable - if I were Id breed designer dogs and maybe make some money. :p

[Monah]

I too believe it is mostly nature.

You can see a dog who has been tied up, ignored, fairly ill treated and not socialised and it can still be trusting, affectionate, friendly etc.

Then there are dogs (many on here ) who have been very well 'brought up' and still have plenty of issues.

Genetics plays a huge part in all make ups, and if we take a look at humans who have been separated etc. , maybe twins, and had completely different upbringings, but are still very alike, I think this proves genetics have the major input.

Studies have been done, I think on english pointers if I remember correctly, on how the dams' input can change temperament and it appears this also has credence. It is not clear if the behaviour of the dam is because the pup is born physically or mentally 'weak' (for want of a better word), or if the pup turns out that way through the dams' behaviour.

THe dam or other siblings may make it difficult for one or two pups to feed, or bully them, or not give them as much touching etc. , leading to temp problems later.

They also studied fearful, timid etc. temp dogs and their offspring over a few generations, and found that one or two fearful animals could turn into dozens by the fifth generation. ie. a slightly timid dam could throw 3 timid pups, who then throw 5, who then throw 6 etc. so if 3 pups each throw 5 timid pups, you have 15 animals out there throwing more of the same. Nurture can help manage this, but does not change it.

Temp comes from genes, personality can be changed through ill treatment or good treatment, but the genetics are unable to change. This is very obvious to guide dog, police dog etc. trainers and behaviourists who I'm sure could add an awful lot of interesting posts here if we had any on Dol.

[jacqui835]

About 4 yrs ago i was given a puppy, it was meant to be a foxy x jack russel, but as it grew it was obvious that this was not the case, this pup was getting bigger all the time, we had him for about 18 months and he was getting rougher and rougher as he got older, through not fault to us,

he was walked regulary, loved, had loads of attention, obedienced trained, then one day he got really rough with my daughter and then things went down hill,

he took chunk out of me and knocked my daughter down and went for her throat, he was standing on her chest and she could not get up, i ran over and pushed him off, the next day we took him to the pound, the guys at the pound asked what breed he was and we told him foxy x jack russel, and he then stated that he could see American Pit Bull in him and that that would explain why he was getting vicious, my daughter was heart broken as this was her first puppy

this pup was shown nothing but affection, love, regular walks, played with every day, given all the love in the world, but a mix in his breeding was coming out deadly,

so even a bad dog in a good home can be predisposed to being bad - i guess

Sorry I completely disagree with this.

The fact that your dog may have had APBT in him and the fact that he became "aggressive" towards your daughter are in no way related. And believe me, if he had truely wanted to do damage he most certainly would have.

Most dogs need more than "affection, love, regular walks, played with every day, given all the love in the world". They need rules, structure, disapline and (for some) a LOT of training and mental stimulation. The fact that your dog lashed out may have had very little to do with bad breeding or true aggression and more to do with a combination of the dogs personality, poor pack structure and/or lack of respect for you/your child as the dogs "pack leader". Without seeking the advice of a professional you would not know this.

And taking an "aggressive" dog to the pound is extremely irresponsible IMO. What were they to do with him? Two options there, rehome or PTS - and no-one rehomes an aggressive dog. He should have either been seen be an experienced behaviourist to determine the problem, or humanely euthanased by a vet.

Do you know I would have agreed completely with your post a couple of months ago, but I do not any longer. The truth is, some breeds are more difficult to handle than others. I am a doberman owner and I think he is the perfect dog for me and my dog training club now show him off as an example of what can be done with a doberman. I love my dog more than I can express, but some people (non-dog owners or small dog owners) often judge me for how firm I am with him and they don't understand how I can always be consistent and discipline him. My sister owns 2 papillons, they have run of the house and basically do as they please. And yet, they never challenge her. If she or my mother were to go out and buy a doberman, we would have a very dangerous dog on our hands. But, so long as they stick to cats and papillons, there are relatively few problems.

The other night when bondi vet was on, I, like many of the people here was outraged by the woman who insisted on having the puppy tested for pitbull heritage - the results she felt would determine its suitability as a family pet. But, my sister was with me at the time, and I feel she made a very valid point. Her dogs are quite nice, well-cared for and healthy. But, she asked me to imagine what would happen if someone like her ended up with a pittbull. She is not someone who could handle a more dominant or temperamental breed. No-one on these forums would try and argue that all breeds are the same and some breeds are easier for some people to handle.

Nature imo tells you what you have to work with, nuture determines what you will make of the raw materials. Wrong nature/breed specifications matched with the wrong person for those traits = disaster. But in the proper hands, any breed or dog can be the perfect pet. I would probably say that with dogs being so amenable to humans, nuture is slightly more important, but nature is certainly not insignificant.

[B-Q]

Harry is badly bred, we suspect he was treated badly before we got him at 4 months of age and he's always had issues. Around a year old he became very HR and DA, he's a good dog but he is messed up in the head. He can't be trusted with any of the dogs he lives with, he gets nervous easily and deals with it by reacting. He was well socialised when young, never had any bad experiences with us, we are used to raising dogs, we can provide structured routine for our dogs and we do, we have 4 so its important that they behave for us or life would be a nightmare.

His saving Grace is that when he is comfortable (most of the time now that we are used to managing him) he is just adorable, he's such a happy boy when he's feeling confident and he absolutly adores his life.

Buster I don't know his past before we found him at 8 weeks but I believe he is a good dog that grew up in a bad situation, my stepdad treated him terribly because he and I didn't get on and Buster was my dog. Nothing was consistent and I am amazed he's such a good dog still. His only really issue is his DA and that has improved a lot in thepast few years. I just wish I knew 8 yeas ago what I know now, I would have been able to give him a much better start.

I do think its important to relise what your limitations are with dogs/breeds. I know I would have to watch myself with a small breed that I didn't let it get away with things because it was little. I would struggle with the independance of a spitz breed although I do admire them.

Edited October 4, 2010 by busterlove

[lovemesideways]

My newfie girl was in a bad home (divorce led to changes in family).....She came from a good breeder, parents were well tempered. When we got her she was people and dog aggressive. For 6 month we struggled, but with good support form a trainer we now have a lovely dog. So her bad temper was due to environment not breeding

This is Zero all over - awesome breeder, ended up in a bad situation, extremely dog aggressive, wouldn't let people near him, used to growl and snap at you if you handled his paws or touched his collar, took him to see k9pro, had a massive turn around and now he's an awesome dog again. I put a lot of that down to good breeding and early (very early) socialisation. It wasn't naturally in his nature to be like that if that makes sense.

That being said, i think nurture plays a huge part - the wrong dog in the wrong home can be a massive problem.

Also don't forget the amazing job you did with him, dedication and love make a huge difference in any dog

[fainty_girl]

I'm very curious about what people think about the nature vs nurture debate when it comes to dogs, dog behaviour, puppies etc.

For example, can a well-bred dog with parents with good temperament in a bad home - go bad?

Or an ill-bred dog end up being in a good home and have no behavioural issues?

I'm curious for opinions from people with some experience (I don't really know - that's why I'm asking!).

Both of my dogs are cross breeds, they were rescue dogs and obviously did not have great lives before they came here. Today they are both different dogs to the ones we brought home, so obviously "nurture" side of things is very important for our dogs.

My brother has been looking after a purebred kelpie for about a year and this dog's behaviour has improved so much too, he is like a different dog as well. This dog would lose it if you patted him for more than a couple of seconds, he would get very worked up and very excited (this dog is a total sook). But now he really loves being patted and doesn't lose it at all. He also used to get quite antsy and would find it hard to relax when he would visit here, but the last time he came he didn't want to leave our place and was snuggled on the lounge next to me with his head resting on my blanket and had to be called about three times by my brother before he reluctantly got off the lounge to leave.

I think it is a combination of nature and nurture though, obviously each dog is more inclined to be a certain way, but the way we treat them has a massive impact on their behaviour.

[Aphra]

he took chunk out of me and knocked my daughter down and went for her throat, he was standing on her chest and she could not get up, i ran over and pushed him off, the next day we took him to the pound, the guys at the pound asked what breed he was and we told him foxy x jack russel, and he then stated that he could see American Pit Bull in him and that that would explain why he was getting vicious, my daughter was heart broken as this was her first puppy

this pup was shown nothing but affection, love, regular walks, played with every day, given all the love in the world, but a mix in his breeding was coming out deadly,

so even a bad dog in a good home can be predisposed to being bad - i guess

I think the really sad thing about this story is that by saying "he could see American Pit Bull in him and that would explain why he was getting vicious" means that nobody actually bothered to think about what the real story might be. Maybe your dog was naturally aggressive or fearful, but it's also possible that there were faults in the way he was handled, or indicators of what was going to happen that were missed because assumptions were made that some kind of statement of breed were the explanation for his behaviour.

Pits are terriers, just like Jack Russells and Fox Terriers, and all the terriers to be be reactive and even the little terriers can be naturally very assertive and steadfast in nature and not everybody has the capacity to handle them; I freely admit to not being a terrier person for that reason.

Pits aren't some special category of dog, they are just dogs, with all the variability of nature that all breeds and x breeds of dogs have.

It's terribly sad that you took him to the pound; given the reason for surrender he was probably euthanised as soon as you left. I think that while it is much harder to have the dog PTS yourself, it is much kinder for the dog to die quietly with people he knows than stressed by strange people in an unpleasant environment.

I've read some interesting research about the nature vs nurture argument:

http://www.breedingbetterdogs.com/articles...mulation_en.pdf

I used this technique on my litter of rescue puppies ... I have no idea how it has helped if at all, but they are very friendly, confident, out-going pups.

[~Midniara~]

It's a question that can have many answers and way too generic.

Some years back I rescued a Malioins that the owners labelled as an 'escape artist' that no matter what they did she would always run away. So she spent most of her life chained in their back yard. She had no shelter and was not handled very much.

The first day she was with me she growled whenever she came near me. She would completely loose it with fear whenever I picked up something that had a cord coming from it. Sudden movements would petrify her. She was like this for about 2 weeks and I was starting to wonder if this was going to be life with her. The one thing she never did though was try to escape which was the main reason why her original home wanted to be rid of her.

Then one day she just snapped and all of a sudden she became incredibly affectionate and loving. She was a little anxious around strangers but with time she learned to trust. She loved my kids and ran well with all my other Belgians.

When she left here her new home couldn't believe that she had ever had these problems.

Another situation was one of my home bred Belgians. Her owner was had her for around 12 months before she started to show sign's of 'seperation anxiety' it escalated to the point where the neighbours had complained and the council had visited her and the Real Estate Agents (she rented) had given here an notice of eviction if she couldn't fix the problem.

In the end and at her whits end she asked for me to take the dog back. I re-homed her and the new owners have never had this pronblem with her. She is perfect in every way.

So sometimes even though you may think you may be doing all the right things with a particular dog it could be something that you are doing unintentionally that is causing the problem.

I've seen many dogs that have been accused of acting a certain way only to change as soon as its environment has been changed.

Edited October 4, 2010 by ~Midniara~