Max#1 Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 I'm very curious about what people think about the nature vs nurture debate when it comes to dogs, dog behaviour, puppies etc. For example, can a well-bred dog with parents with good temperament in a bad home - go bad? Or an ill-bred dog end up being in a good home and have no behavioural issues? I'm curious for opinions from people with some experience (I don't really know - that's why I'm asking!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellamini Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 I'm very curious about what people think about the nature vs nurture debate when it comes to dogs, dog behaviour, puppies etc.For example, can a well-bred dog with parents with good temperament in a bad home - go bad? Or an ill-bred dog end up being in a good home and have no behavioural issues? I'm curious for opinions from people with some experience (I don't really know - that's why I'm asking!). Can a well bred dog with parents of good temperament in a bad home - go bad? Absolutely. And the cause is in those words "bad home". Can an ill-bred dog in a good home have no behavioural issues? Absolutely. And all the thanks can usually go to the kind and caring owners who really understand their dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackenzie11 Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 About 4 yrs ago i was given a puppy, it was meant to be a foxy x jack russel, but as it grew it was obvious that this was not the case, this pup was getting bigger all the time, we had him for about 18 months and he was getting rougher and rougher as he got older, through not fault to us, he was walked regulary, loved, had loads of attention, obedienced trained, then one day he got really rough with my daughter and then things went down hill, he took chunk out of me and knocked my daughter down and went for her throat, he was standing on her chest and she could not get up, i ran over and pushed him off, the next day we took him to the pound, the guys at the pound asked what breed he was and we told him foxy x jack russel, and he then stated that he could see American Pit Bull in him and that that would explain why he was getting vicious, my daughter was heart broken as this was her first puppy this pup was shown nothing but affection, love, regular walks, played with every day, given all the love in the world, but a mix in his breeding was coming out deadly, so even a bad dog in a good home can be predisposed to being bad - i guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swizzlestick Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 Yes to both questions IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newfsie Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 My newfie girl was in a bad home (divorce led to changes in family).....She came from a good breeder, parents were well tempered. When we got her she was people and dog aggressive. For 6 month we struggled, but with good support form a trainer we now have a lovely dog. So her bad temper was due to environment not breeding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 Yes to both, and also yes to their opposites. Researchers these days look at what is called "gene x environment interactions". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJS Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 About 4 yrs ago i was given a puppy, it was meant to be a foxy x jack russel, but as it grew it was obvious that this was not the case, this pup was getting bigger all the time, we had him for about 18 months and he was getting rougher and rougher as he got older, through not fault to us,he was walked regulary, loved, had loads of attention, obedienced trained, then one day he got really rough with my daughter and then things went down hill, he took chunk out of me and knocked my daughter down and went for her throat, he was standing on her chest and she could not get up, i ran over and pushed him off, the next day we took him to the pound, the guys at the pound asked what breed he was and we told him foxy x jack russel, and he then stated that he could see American Pit Bull in him and that that would explain why he was getting vicious, my daughter was heart broken as this was her first puppy this pup was shown nothing but affection, love, regular walks, played with every day, given all the love in the world, but a mix in his breeding was coming out deadly, so even a bad dog in a good home can be predisposed to being bad - i guess Thats a shame about your pup mackenzie. It's also a shame that the aggression was automatically attributed to Pitbull ancestry. It is impossible to tell if a mixed breed dog would have Pitbull in it, especially if it could pass as Foxy x JRT as a pup. Identifying a Pitbull is not easy, have a look in the BSL forum and you will see what I mean. I own an Amstaff that was identified as a Pitbull by a local council and it lead to all sorts of strife for me. Some will argue Pitbulls are Amstaffs and others say the gap between them is now too wide. Either way they are closely related. My dog is very stable and has never shown signs of aggression, I have also met a few great natured Pitbulls. It can be a hot topic on this forum sometimes as you will probably see. I personally do not accept that Pitbull = Aggressive and feel compelled to defend the breed when this is notion is implied. Off topic I know. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 Are there any dogs in Australia - still openly and legally bred to be aggressive to humans or other dogs? So theoretically - it's all down to nurture. I've got a gorgeous ill bred dog of unknown parentage. Not an aggressive bone in her body. Well - unless you're a cat, but she's never hurt one of these either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 (edited) IMHO, each dog inherits a suite of characteristics, eg more or less able to deal with stress, more or less responsive to certain stimuli, more or less likely to behave in certain ways. A lot of that for pure bred dogs is somewhat predictable by breed, although you can get a lot of variation with breeds too. Some of that variation may be because of good or bad breeding, but some may be just natural variation. Whatever the pup starts with, genetically, is then impacted by it's early experience - I think the first few months are important, including the influence of the dam and litter - and then for the rest of its life by all it's experiences and learning, deliberate or accidental, and how it's physical and psychological needs are met. Or not met. But I don't think that many dogs are born 'bad'. They may be in a home more suited to a different dog, even though that home is a 'good home', it may be the wrong home. Or it may be in a 'bad home' that it still manages to do OK in because it's resilient enough to cope, or that home actually meets most of its needs even though we don't think it's a good place to be. Or what you think is a bad dog, I may think is just fine. And vice versa. Depending on what role you and I want that dog to perform and what traits we particularly value. A few dogs may be born 'bad', with a psychological problem of some kind that makes then inherently dangerous or too extreme in behaviour, but I don't think that is many. That doesn't mean all the others are suitable for an average pet home though. I hope that never becomes the sole measure of a 'good' dog. Edited October 2, 2010 by Diva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 Pitbulls are not bred to be human aggressive - people have to handle them even if they are used for fighting other dogs - and be able to handle an injured dog. By general breed nature, they are bred to be aggressive to other dogs - IF bred for fighting. Don't believe the media hype that "pitbulls" are bred to attack people - or that they will "normally" attack for no reason. That said - I don't think I've ever seen a dog that was "born bad" - born "damaged", yes - but not inherently "bad", "evil", or "nasty"... Upbringing definitely has a huge effect on how a dog will "turn out" - and, as stated by others in this thread, early socialisation and training has a big impact on later tendencies. I have a Rottie/Pittie - she was certainly a handful as a pup, but with constant training and socialisation, she has turned out to be the loveliest dog who has never shown any evil tendencies towards humans - but I'm sure that if she wasn't trained and well socialised in those early months, the story could well have been very different with regards to tendencies towards other dogs. She has never shown any hint of human aggression - even when pushed... I've had my fair share of foster puppies for rescue - and many have been larger or bull breed mixes... honestly, I find they are easier to train and socialise than the smaller breeds. My fosters are not rehomed until they have been well socialised and had some basic obedience instilled. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 Well it could go both ways could it, just like humans being an animal are born with certain personalities and mental instabilities so are dogs and any other animal. One litter bred by either lovely parents or not so lovely parents is going to have an array of personalities some easy going and some not so. Can nerves and aggression be bred on.....it's seen time and time again. Can an inexperienced person make a mess of a well temperamented dog, sure. Can an experienced person do better with a not so great temperamented dog, sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandybrush Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 i believe nuture plays a big role in raising a dog to behave appropriatley. however i have heard of a litter that the whole litter had to be put down as they would through no provokation would turn around and snap. they were the sweetest dogs until they snapped. so i believe that both nature and nuture play a big role. but if you have sensible breeders breeding nice natured dogs then it will be the nuture in the "bad homes" that stuffs them up and not really in their nature...if that makes sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~*Shell*~ Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 My newfie girl was in a bad home (divorce led to changes in family).....She came from a good breeder, parents were well tempered. When we got her she was people and dog aggressive. For 6 month we struggled, but with good support form a trainer we now have a lovely dog. So her bad temper was due to environment not breeding This is Zero all over - awesome breeder, ended up in a bad situation, extremely dog aggressive, wouldn't let people near him, used to growl and snap at you if you handled his paws or touched his collar, took him to see k9pro, had a massive turn around and now he's an awesome dog again. I put a lot of that down to good breeding and early (very early) socialisation. It wasn't naturally in his nature to be like that if that makes sense. That being said, i think nurture plays a huge part - the wrong dog in the wrong home can be a massive problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max#1 Posted October 2, 2010 Author Share Posted October 2, 2010 About 4 yrs ago i was given a puppy, it was meant to be a foxy x jack russel, but as it grew it was obvious that this was not the case, this pup was getting bigger all the time, we had him for about 18 months and he was getting rougher and rougher as he got older, through not fault to us, he was walked regulary, loved, had loads of attention, obedienced trained, then one day he got really rough with my daughter and then things went down hill, he took chunk out of me and knocked my daughter down and went for her throat, he was standing on her chest and she could not get up, i ran over and pushed him off, the next day we took him to the pound, the guys at the pound asked what breed he was and we told him foxy x jack russel, and he then stated that he could see American Pit Bull in him and that that would explain why he was getting vicious, my daughter was heart broken as this was her first puppy this pup was shown nothing but affection, love, regular walks, played with every day, given all the love in the world, but a mix in his breeding was coming out deadly, so even a bad dog in a good home can be predisposed to being bad - i guess That's a really sad story - and it must've been hard to go through - for your daughter as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max#1 Posted October 2, 2010 Author Share Posted October 2, 2010 It can be a hot topic on this forum sometimes as you will probably see. I personally do not accept that Pitbull = Aggressive and feel compelled to defend the breed when this is notion is implied.Off topic I know. Sorry. Its not really off-topic. Its a fair point - I wonder if people's assumption that a dog will be aggressive influences the way they treat that dog, which then doesn't help the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max#1 Posted October 2, 2010 Author Share Posted October 2, 2010 Yes to both, and also yes to their opposites.Researchers these days look at what is called "gene x environment interactions". Do you mean the combination of genes and environmental interactions? (If those traits are then inheritable that's almost suggesting epigenetics - a really interesting concept). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackenzie11 Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 About 4 yrs ago i was given a puppy, it was meant to be a foxy x jack russel, but as it grew it was obvious that this was not the case, this pup was getting bigger all the time, we had him for about 18 months and he was getting rougher and rougher as he got older, through not fault to us, he was walked regulary, loved, had loads of attention, obedienced trained, then one day he got really rough with my daughter and then things went down hill, he took chunk out of me and knocked my daughter down and went for her throat, he was standing on her chest and she could not get up, i ran over and pushed him off, the next day we took him to the pound, the guys at the pound asked what breed he was and we told him foxy x jack russel, and he then stated that he could see American Pit Bull in him and that that would explain why he was getting vicious, my daughter was heart broken as this was her first puppy this pup was shown nothing but affection, love, regular walks, played with every day, given all the love in the world, but a mix in his breeding was coming out deadly, so even a bad dog in a good home can be predisposed to being bad - i guess That's a really sad story - and it must've been hard to go through - for your daughter as well! yes my daughter was devestated, i feel for the pup though as we know it was not his fault, but it was not safe to keep him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlemum Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 about 7 years ago I had 2 Poodles - brother & sister (from different litters but still full Brother & sister). They were both given the same training (basic Obedience) plenty of love and were well-cared for. Niki was an absolute delight of a boy - well behaved and rarely put a paw wrong. Sally, on the other hand, was an EVIL BITCH - she was destructive, an escape artist and tried her best to lead the other dogs on wrong-doing. So, I would say that nature plays a large part in a dog's personality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 About 4 yrs ago i was given a puppy, it was meant to be a foxy x jack russel, but as it grew it was obvious that this was not the case, this pup was getting bigger all the time, we had him for about 18 months and he was getting rougher and rougher as he got older, through not fault to us,he was walked regulary, loved, had loads of attention, obedienced trained, then one day he got really rough with my daughter and then things went down hill, he took chunk out of me and knocked my daughter down and went for her throat, he was standing on her chest and she could not get up, i ran over and pushed him off, the next day we took him to the pound, the guys at the pound asked what breed he was and we told him foxy x jack russel, and he then stated that he could see American Pit Bull in him and that that would explain why he was getting vicious, my daughter was heart broken as this was her first puppy this pup was shown nothing but affection, love, regular walks, played with every day, given all the love in the world, but a mix in his breeding was coming out deadly, so even a bad dog in a good home can be predisposed to being bad - i guess Sorry I completely disagree with this. The fact that your dog may have had APBT in him and the fact that he became "aggressive" towards your daughter are in no way related. And believe me, if he had truely wanted to do damage he most certainly would have. Most dogs need more than "affection, love, regular walks, played with every day, given all the love in the world". They need rules, structure, disapline and (for some) a LOT of training and mental stimulation. The fact that your dog lashed out may have had very little to do with bad breeding or true aggression and more to do with a combination of the dogs personality, poor pack structure and/or lack of respect for you/your child as the dogs "pack leader". Without seeking the advice of a professional you would not know this. And taking an "aggressive" dog to the pound is extremely irresponsible IMO. What were they to do with him? Two options there, rehome or PTS - and no-one rehomes an aggressive dog. He should have either been seen be an experienced behaviourist to determine the problem, or humanely euthanased by a vet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 About 4 yrs ago i was given a puppy, it was meant to be a foxy x jack russel, but as it grew it was obvious that this was not the case, this pup was getting bigger all the time, we had him for about 18 months and he was getting rougher and rougher as he got older, through not fault to us,he was walked regulary, loved, had loads of attention, obedienced trained, then one day he got really rough with my daughter and then things went down hill, he took chunk out of me and knocked my daughter down and went for her throat, he was standing on her chest and she could not get up, i ran over and pushed him off, the next day we took him to the pound, the guys at the pound asked what breed he was and we told him foxy x jack russel, and he then stated that he could see American Pit Bull in him and that that would explain why he was getting vicious, my daughter was heart broken as this was her first puppy this pup was shown nothing but affection, love, regular walks, played with every day, given all the love in the world, but a mix in his breeding was coming out deadly, so even a bad dog in a good home can be predisposed to being bad - i guess Sorry I completely disagree with this. The fact that your dog may have had APBT in him and the fact that he became "aggressive" towards your daughter are in no way related. And believe me, if he had truely wanted to do damage he most certainly would have. Most dogs need more than "affection, love, regular walks, played with every day, given all the love in the world". They need rules, structure, disapline and (for some) a LOT of training and mental stimulation. The fact that your dog lashed out may have had very little to do with bad breeding or true aggression and more to do with a combination of the dogs personality, poor pack structure and/or lack of respect for you/your child as the dogs "pack leader". Without seeking the advice of a professional you would not know this. And taking an "aggressive" dog to the pound is extremely irresponsible IMO. What were they to do with him? Two options there, rehome or PTS - and no-one rehomes an aggressive dog. He should have either been seen be an experienced behaviourist to determine the problem, or humanely euthanased by a vet. Good post secretkei, my thoughts exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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