Barf

[holly]

I just want to share a phone call today.

Get a phone call from a puppy buyer whose puppy is now 17 months saying they think there is something wrong with the pup, as it poos, big poos about 7 times a day and he can see the dogs ribs

"ok, what's the diet you have your dog on"?

"oh red meat, carrots, pasta, kelp, yeast, yogurt, omega oils, Thrive D, calcium" (this is not the diet I recommended)

"why Thrive D, is there something wrong with your dogs digestive tract?"

"no just have it handy"

"how much food are you giving your dog?"

"a BIG bowl full!"

"are you feeding more meat than vegetable?"

"no more vegestables than meat, vegies are good for you, you know"

"how much meat are you giving your dog?"

"oh about 17 cubes"

"anything else?"

"oh a cup of Science Diet"

"what, Performance?"

"no, senior, I think"

So here is a novices diet, full of fibre, fillers, little protein and low in fat, at least i think so.

I have asked him to go up to 500g of fatty chicken mince a bit of vegies, cut out all the additives, except the Omega Oils and if after 1 week, he is still on the lean side, than add another 1/4kg, keep observing, he may need to add or decrease as the weight goes up or down, at 3/4 kg chicken mince my boy, very active and only a few months older, gets fat on that quantity. I have asked for him to take a poo sample to the vet to check for worms, coccidia etc.

This person is the very reason why I do not suggest BARF to most of puppy buyers, there is far too much roon for error in such a fast growing breed, but I maybe wrong?

What do others think of the previous diet?

[Vehs]

I feel a little sick reading that convo

I'd obviously like to see more bones, no calcium and wider veggie selection, less pasta and just mention small pinches of the additives

fatty chicken and lamb flaps for now.....

did you ask why he didn't stick with your diet sheet?

[Mystiqview]

Lately I have heard and seen more unhealthy dogs on Barf than I see dogs eating PAL...

Mine puppies have all had a good quality puppy dry food, mixed with chicken necks, meat trimmings from the butcher, lamb brisket bones to chew as they are lovely and soft, and scotty's chicken rolls thrown in.

It is easy, no fuss.. and the dogs get the balance of minerals/vitamins etc they need from premium dry food..

[Darien]

Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a BARF diet?

[cavNrott]

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Edited December 22, 2008 by cavNrott

[holly]

You are right Anne, it is not the BARF it is the user.

I have 4 of my 6 on BARF and they are all in good condition, it is a basic one too, no fuss and what I do like about BARF is, if I get a skin reaction with one ingredient (as was seen with my GSD that was suffering from a 'crusty nose') than it is easy to eliminate that ingredient or add something else. Commercial we are at the mercy of the honesty of the manufacturer. My two that on commercial still get turkey necks daily as well as the vegetable, my others get, as well as any leftovers from dinner.

But this person, like so many novices, has gone half cocked into BARF without reading the basics for good health and maintance. He also was a bit shocked that he had to feed at least 500g of meat, 'that much' was his reply, whether because of cost or volume, I am not sure.

I have other pressing issues here at home at the moment, VEHS, so didn't ask what made him change the diet from what I supplied (we recommended premium biscuit as well as some meat,bone,vegetables etc for variety and natural goodness to our puppy buyers, there is far less room for error on the diet and the dogs will not be starved or over supplemented)

It was explained to him that a dog is not a cow (said it in the nicest possibly way surprised? ;) ) that they are not designed to munch on grass all day, if he is feeding vegetables, it should not make up the main ingredient and they need to be pulped or what i do is frozen and give them a short blast in the microwave, it may not be correct for others, but my line of thought is the microwave will help break down the fibrous tissue in the vegetables and allow for better obsorbtion.

Dogs need fatty meat for calorie, calorie means energy, energy means whatever the dog does not use, will be stored as fat.

I further explained the diet he had his dog on, is designed for a dog that is fat and needs to reduce calorie, because basically his dog is getting fillers and fibre which will help to stop him feeling hungry but not put on weight and the more fibre you feed, the more poos will be created, he needs more fatty meat in his diet.

I suggested that the local supermarkets have chicken pieces available for around $5 for 2kg, forzenbuy them or mince, not the Leonards variety, as it is mostly bone, but minced chicken backs etc. With the chicken mince and pieces, there is the fat, meat and bone needed, he will not have to feed calcium on top of this.

Skysdalimit, that is type of diet we give our puppy buyers too, for what one has in a short fall, the other will take up the slack, I also put into our contract, should they deviate from the diet, the hips and elbows will not be guaranteed, a bit more of an incentive to stick to the plan, sure some will lie about what they feed, but at least those honest folk will think twice

BTW Anne, thank you for taking on a senior rescue, that is the sort of good news story I needed to hear at the moment.

Edited January 28, 2005 by holly

[cavNrott]

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Edited December 22, 2008 by cavNrott

[bulldogz4eva]

Holly,

I think you are right,far too much vegies and not enough meat for a growing dog.I feed my dog who is probably a similar size to yours albeit a different breed,about 3/4 of a kilo of beef mince with with grated carrot and par bolied rice,garlic ,kelp and yeast and he seems fine.If he gets a little plump I cut it back for awhile.

[Prydenjoy]

I think no matter what the owners of that dog were feeding, they would get it wrong, they weren't even sure what type of dry they were feeding! Why would you feed senior dog food to a growing dog? It is my understanding that senior foods have restricted calories also.

I would have emphasised bones, lots of bones, the worst thing a person can do is add calcium supps to an already unbalanced diet, if they were so clueless about diet, they were probably supplementing with WAY too much calcium, especially considering the bulk of the diet was veggies, and there was barely any meat! I'd give a friendly call back and just make sure they'd cut out the calcium supplements asap!

[holly]

Hi Jeanne

I hear what you are saying and that is why everyone is giving a 8 page information booklet of things I have learnt, I break down the information, so it is easy to understand and just why it is recommended, as well as a GSDCA puppy booklet, again at least 10 pages full of information.

Some people just do not appear to read the 'manufacturers instructions' And that is why I request everyone use a specific type of biscuit adn even go into how much and how to tell if they are getting too fat or too lean, but some do not listen. Keep it simple and easy, less room for error.

I had one lady up north phone me when her puppy was 9 months old, that the puppy was listless.

So I asked what she fed and what she was doing. She had switched the growing puppy over to Chum and had, in her wisdom, had her at 4months of age, rounding up the cattle, WTF! When I have taken the time to state the opposites, she is older and she knows better, all vet tests were inclusive.

I do have a problem with recommending a lot of bone, as I have seen dogs come in during emergencies with perforated bowls, obstructions and the like, I am not going to be held responsible if their pet should die, on my recommendations. I do recommend bones a few times a week and what type of bones etc to avoid

With commercial diets, premium ones, there is no need to add calcium either, as there ample supply already adn if feeding BARF that is why I prefer the minced chicken backs over red meat, it agrees better with GSD's adn also had all three essential ingredients, fat, protein, bone.

You totally understand the mechanics of BARF and various vitamins and minerals, fed as supplements can do as far as damage or well being, but this does take time and research to understand, if a person fails to even read a puppy booklet, I dont' think that they would manage BARF books

[Kavik]

I was talking to someone who also had BARF wrong, but had the opposite problem. They only fed their dog meat. Not meaty bones, just mince. I tried to explain the calcium/phosperous ratio, the importance of bones (at least wings etc), and the need for other things such as veggies etc. Not sure how much was understood. Now I know why vets are loath to recommend BARF or any homemade diet.

Diesel gets:

* Chicken wings (and frames when we can find them) - about 5 wings or 2 frames for brekkie and 4 or 5 wings for dinner (depending on what else he is getting)

* Pureed fruit and veggies (apple, carrot, celery, pear, snow peas) every day

* Fish twice a week (mackeral and sardines)

* Egg twice a week

* Brisket bones twice a week

* Kelp twice a week (1 teaspoon)

* Organ meat twice a week (liver, heart, kidney and giblets, rotating)

* Vit C and fish oil every day.

I think I have covered most things, it is time consuming, but I think about the same price as a premium food.

[Greytmate]

We have also found that people have a tendancy to not read the "instruction book" that comes with their dog.

I guess its is because they are so excited about the new pet, that they spend all their time with the new pet, and put the book aside, rather than read it.

We try to overcome this, by sending out the book a week in advance of them getting the dog. This is the time when they are wanting to learn what to do, and are wanting to prepare for the new dog, and buy everything it needs. We hope that they take the time to read the book during the week, before the dog arrives.

[Fin]

This is the reason I was hesitant to go to BARF. Even if you read the information that is out there, there is so much mis-information and conflicting advice that you don't really know if your getting it right.

I am using BARF and would really appreciated someone experienced validating (or otherwise) what he's being fed. He's a Weimaraner 16 weeks old.

OK here goes.

Morning Meal

3x chicken wings (about 400-450g)

Night meal

120-150g vegies (mainly greens but carrot as well)

200g chicken necks

dollup of yoghurt

vit c (500mg)

1x kelp tablet

1x teaspoon of brewers yeast

1x glucosamine tablet

Every couple of days I add an egg or two to his night meal and about once a fortnight he gets sardines. He also gets mince about once a week added with the vegies.

He's quite lean and kept that way deliberately.

His breeder is showing him and sees him every few days and she is quite happy but she doesn't feed full BARF diet.

[Guest TrinityBelle]

When I got my Sheltie Trinity just over four months ago, I continued with the breeder recommended Barf diet - raw mince, rice, veges etc but the poor tike had constant diarrhoea. She had it from the moment we got her out of the car, and had it every time after that. Although she was happy and playful, the vet and I decided to change her over to dry food - Hill's Science Diet.

Now she gets Hills, chicken and beef mince, chook necks and wings, and some occasional leftovers. She also has some Nature's Gift in the mornings. At least that one isn't full of artificial crap.

And her poo's are lovely !!! ha ha ha!

Edited January 30, 2005 by TrinityBelle

[Rebanne]

Hi Fin, IMO only, I think having half and half vegies/necks at the night meal is out of whack. Trying to add up all the amounts and it seems your boy's vegies count for nearly 1/3 of his meals. This is too high for my liking. When I fed ah la Billinghurst my dogs got a vegie meal every 3rd or 4th day, pups every 3rd or 4th meal. Often less.

But if your pup is doing fine, and your breeder is happy, don't worry, Just add more meaty bones as the pup grows without upping the vegies too much.

edited to add: try joining a barf list too. Lots of support.

Edited January 30, 2005 by Rebanne

[Darien]

OK...seeing as no one answerd my question directly, I looked it up. My dog gets a bit of both, kibble, high quality can food, chicken wings, necks and legs as well as vegetables, I often make up a meal with cooked mince(kangaroo) with vegies and pasta and sometimes table scraps. She is fit, lean and happy. Is there anything wrong with her diet? She also gets raw bones form the butcher, maybe twice a week.

[aatainc]

rebanne, as I add it up, it's 150g vegies, to 650g chicken bones per day. That's about a 1/4 - I think that's fine. I would agree though that as he needs to eat more increase the wings (or go to lamb flaps etc) rather than increasing the vegies.

i think rather than having a booklet of info, produce the booklet but have the diet sheet set out like a recipe, stuck on the front of it - so it's the first thing they see. I think if you give a SET recipe with actual amounts of specific substances you shoudl be fine recommending it to novices. Especially if you have a quick chat about the importance of sticking to the recipe exactly!

However, I do agree that explaining general barf principles to novices and expecting them to come up with a decent diet is a bad idea.

Jeanne,

Just as an aside - and I don't mean to be rude - while your signature is lovely, it's very wide, which means that I have to scroll right in order to read all of your text. I don't know if others have this problem but is there any chance you could remove one of the photos in your signature or shrink the width so that it's the same width as everyone elses? Thanks! (Lovely photos by the way.)

[Clyde]

Just as an aside - and I don't mean to be rude - while your signature is lovely, it's very wide, which means that I have to scroll right in order to read all of your text. I don't know if others have this problem but is there any chance you could remove one of the photos in your signature or shrink the width so that it's the same width as everyone elses? Thanks! (Lovely photos by the way.)

you took the words right out of my mouth.

Very cute pics though

[holly]

Darien

I am not the BARF expert, I am a novice and this is why I was reluctant to give you advice about your diet, but here it goes, hopefully others will correct where I am wrong?

Do you measure everything so you know how much your girl is getting? Some, like my father in law, use the 'bowlfull' scale, which is difficult to calculate if the dog looses weight or puts it on and gets fat. I prefer either scales, most accurate, or cup measurents.

I would cut out the tin dog food, that is not necessary with what you are feeding. tins are mostly water, unless you buy the top brands, eg: Hills, they also have fillers as number ingredient, gluten, to give that yummy jelly look and I don't know about your girl, but dogs will stink the place out with the gas tins produce. I would switch to feeding a tin of sardines a few times a week instead, tons more nutritiion. Tin food also, usually has about 9% protein, if soemone was feeding tin alone, this would hardly make for a complete meal for most dogs, I know yours is not, but thougth I would throw taht one in.

the chicken source you use is excellent. Why do you cook the roo mince? there is no need to adn as long as we have good worming programmes, taht is worm with say Drontal (which also does the gastric bug, Giardia) every 12 weeks raw meat is fine.

The vegies are fine but I would cut out the pasta, dogs guts are not naturally designed to digest wheat etc, so is not necessary for the dogs well being.

I hope I helped a bit?

Holly

[holly]

Hi Greytmate

the idea of sending the booklets out first is a great idea, I have done this on occassions, my only problems are that the puppies are not fully paid for until the buyer picks the puppy up or has the transport arragned, I have had buyers renig at the last moment, which leaves me short of booklets and also living out of town, has its own disadvantages and the times I am in town it can be difficult to get to a post office during working hours adn time constraints, but your idea is great and certainly worth thinking about in the future, thanks

My booklets are in those A4 display folders, with seperate pages. They usually have page 1 of the two page diet sheet on the third page, following 5 generation pedigree and perhaps CCCQ reg if it has been finalised.If the owner wishes to, they can pull it out and stick to the fridge, I had never thought of that idea.

The GSDCA puppy booklets are bound and not easily removed without damaging the book. I also do answer questions before the puppy leaves, give information if I pick up on something the owner is hesitant about and alwasy there to answer questions should they have problems, but I know that the puppy breath can drive you to destraction and sometimes the ears of the new puppy buyer are locked solid as they finally get to take home the puppy they have possibly waited months for.

This thread has brought up some useful information, thank you

Holly