Keeping Dogs Out Of The Ring To Help Others

[Shaar]

I voted no to both.

If your dog isn't good enough to win BoB on the day, then it's not good enough, I don't see why someone should leave their dog at home just so the 'lesser' dog has a chance at getting a title.

If that dog is good enough it will beat the others eventually, it just depends on the judge and what they are looking for.

As for the 25 point BoB's that never really crossed my mind as being unfair and I have shown dogs that have been the only one of their sex here for almost their entire show career.

[MissMonaro]

I don't see why a dog should have a BIG win to prove it's worth as a Champion. Just because a dog is a common fixture in the Show line up doesn't necessarily make it the best example of it's breed and vice versa.

Aside from that, why is my BISS and RUBIG winning bitch less worthy because she beat 88 instead of 89 dogs???

One of our dogs will title on mostly 6 pointers, through no fault of her or our own. We travel all over the place to shows- both metro Melbourne and country/ag shows as well as specialities and interstate.

I believe once she hits about 3 years of age and settles into herself she will do very well for herself, but at 2 years old she is still incredibly immature. But she has no real faults. Actually, many experienced exhibitors would probably withdraw her from the ring until she came together but mum has kept her out there to gain the experience etc.

I ave no problems with the Grand Champion title being for the exceptional animals but I believe the Champion title is just a formal way of saying "this is a very good dog of xxx breed".

[PomsNZ]

I voted DEPENDS becuase to me yes, it does.

If a stranger with a horrible example asked me to pull my dog out, so they can win the CC, it would be a NO

however, with a friend with a good example, and in MY OPINION, WORTHY OF ITS TITLE, then i would.

I have done it, and had it done to me.

You aussies complain bout getting a BIG for a gr ch? try NZ! its 3 BIS at ALL BREEDS show, under 3 diff judges, and the dog must have over 50 CCS!.

In our group, there are a few GR CHS that are kept showing, usually they win BIG and RUIG and of course thier classes, yes, they are good dogs, no one is disputing that, but when the dog is a GR CH 20 times over, makes you wonder why they are showing it? to stop others i presume...

Edited October 1, 2010 by PomsNZ

[ellz]

As a side note: I have known people to withdraw their dogs so others don't get the points needed to make a champion on the day. A stupid and petty thing to do.

Had that happen to me in Sydney some years ago. Needed just the same amount of points as the CC would have given my dog. Everybody else pulled and sat at ringside and watched me pull up a couple of points short.

Joke was on them though because they also had to sit at ringside and watch me win the Group. Didn't need their piddly points anyway!

[conztruct]

As a side note: I have known people to withdraw their dogs so others don't get the points needed to make a champion on the day. A stupid and petty thing to do.

Had that happen to me in Sydney some years ago. Needed just the same amount of points as the CC would have given my dog. Everybody else pulled and sat at ringside and watched me pull up a couple of points short.

Joke was on them though because they also had to sit at ringside and watch me win the Group. Didn't need their piddly points anyway!

LOL - that's called getting one's "come-uppance" - well done.

I'd take that kind of behaviour as a compliment - obviously all those people thought your dog was the best exhibit in the breed cos they'd all given up on winning it themselves. It's kinda backhanded, but a bit of a compliment non-the-less.

I agree with you Ellz and the other posters who find this really petty. As I said earlier, I rarely win with my bitch but she loves showing.....I'm not going to pull her out though just so that someone else doesn't get an extra point.

[Bullbreedlover]

We have owned quite a few top winning Bulldogs back in NZ. Our main top winning dog we never made up to a champion until he was 3 years old. Before he turned 3 he had not matured and although we showed him often I would never expect people to pull their dogs out just so we could make his title up. After we titled him AND he matured he was one of the most titled Bulldogs in NZ. While the NZ Grand Ch system is hard to obtain, it is also a very political system and very unfair.

For a dog like ours who was a true example of a beautiful sound dog who amassed over 100 challenges(not points, just challenges) and 3 Specialty Best in Shows but because he had not obtained 3 All Breeds Best in Shows he could not be awarded a Gr Ch status.

Have we ever pulled our dogs out of the ring just to let someone else win.... No.

Given that the judge on the day is judging the dog and not the handler, a dog must win on its merits as being a great example of its breed.

[PomsNZ]

While the NZ Grand Ch system is hard to obtain, it is also a very political system and very unfair.

Given that the judge on the day is judging the dog and not the handler, a dog must win on its merits as being a great example of its breed.

More often than not, a dog winning on its own merits in NZ under a NZ judge is NOT seen very often. As a result, I and a lot of others dont even bother showing under NZ judges. If they dont know the breed, they do not put up the best one, they put up the most known face. Possibly thinking that, as that person has been around for a while, they have good dogs, they must be good examples. Can tell you some shockers, as i bet you can tell some too.

Win or loose, Im still taking home the best in show! (well, in my opinion )

[Wyntervale]

I would be disappointed to have people pull out of a show just for someone to achieve a title. I have at times been disappointed at not getting points, but winning isn't everything and I've met some lovely people and had a great time with friends and my fur kids.

If the dog is good and you persist, eventually you will get your title.

Wouldn't do it either way. A dog should earn its title and I still believe that all dogs should earn at least one 25 pt BOB or a 25 pt BIG to get their Champion Title.

That has got to be one of the most crazy things I have ever heard! If you got togther all the Chessies in Aus currently showing it still wouldn't be a 25point BOB and when you have a breed some judges don't even recognise getting a BIG seems like a far fetched fantasy. If they brought in this rule I would stop showing. We have Grand Ch to award high achieveing dogs.

There have been a few people in my breed say we won't have another Gr Ch with the changes to the rules.. I'm not experienced enough to make a judgment. But I would hate to see too many hurdles put in the way of achieving Ch. After all, the judges are entrusted with the duty of ensuring that the dog is worthy of the title and have the ability to refuse a challenge.

Wouldn't do it either way. A dog should earn its title and I still believe that all dogs should earn at least one 25 pt BOB or a 25 pt BIG to get their Champion Title.

I'm of the opinion that they come cheaply as well. I like the changes to the Grand

I agree that Gr Ch should have higher criteria, and it certainly gives something to aim for after Ch rather than just grinding through shows to get to the Gr Ch title.

Yes i have pulled my dogs at a show for another to title & would do it again for the right person who would appreciate it.

The people i did it for (now retired from showing( had been in the breed for years,fantastic people who where getting older ,where extremely good sports,great breed ambassadors,good genuine people who simply where struggling to be competitive handlers in a breed that requires running.

The dog whilst not off the class of mine at the time certainly deserved it's title & i had no qualms in pulling my dogs for them to gain those last points ,i new they where starting to cut back on showing & time was running out.

On that day i saw people with tears of joy who where grateful to own another champ even if it meant me pulling my dogs.

They are now retired & still keep in regular contact .

I think this is a good example of when it would be appropriate. Sometimes there are special circumstances.

I think this shows a lot of compassion and insight. People contribute to the breed in different ways, and sometimes breeding a top winning all breeds show pony is not actually contributing to the breed anyway.

Exceptionally well said SSM

[Jsk]

My pups will get there titles with mostly no competition.

And that is simply cause there is no competition, and that isnt because I live in a rural area, I live in suburbia and often go to the main show grounds.

So far the only time I have had competition is when I have travelled away and we beat them for 2 out of 3 shows any ways.

So basically I will have the opposite of a petrol champion, I will need to travel to find competition!!

[becks]

I've put yes to both - but i do show under a different system (UK) so we have no chance of cheap/petrol champions. We have don't have that many chances to win CC's during the year. When I started showing Giants, there were a lot of very good dogs being shown and there were good numbers of them. Thanks to 3 dominant dogs in the breed over the last decade, we now are lucky to get a third of the entry we used to have - afterall, there was no need for people to keep males when they had next to no chance to beat the winning canine face of the time. So the breed lost potential stud dogs into pet homes, then the breed lost quality and got itself into a bottle neck with bloodlines. Did the owners of these top dogs really have to compete at every possible champ show for years at a time? Did they even need to turn up at shows without tickets? Would it have really hurt them to leave that dog at home 'some' of the time to allow the other quality dogs to gain a title?

So, yes i would keep out of the ring a dog who could/would beat another to allow it to gain a title. I also think it is sporting to allow others the chance to make up a dog who can't get past one dog - not being able to beat one particular dog doesn't make that dog of less quality, good dogs should be allowed to gain a title. I like the FCI way, where the ticket gets passed down the line to the untitled dog - so long as it is already graded excellent.

[asal]

conztruct - this girl loved the ring, a real show-off. I was only there to hold the lead, she did the rest herself.

When I retired her I still had to take her to shows, put her show lead on and give her a walk around the ring during the lunch break or she would be most upset.

If that were the case there's no way that you should or be expected to take her out of the ring.......congratulations on the achievements - I'm still gunning for my first BIG

I'm a total newbie - I think most people are happy when I turn up with mine because they usually know they're going to win - LOL. I have a lovely, lovely girl who unfortunately has an incorrect bite - it's a real shame because she loves the ring, thinks she's all that, free-stacks for me and moves like a little champ. It doesn't matter to her or me that we don't win because she has a ball so I keep entering her. A comment from a friend when we went to a show up north last weekend "I think that judge really liked her until she opened the mouth......." LOL.

I guess this comes back to what I was saying about getting enough points to gain a CH title and the standard of the exhibits aren't very closely related. Sure if I pick and choose the right shows, I'll probably eventually get enough challenge points for a title but I don't pick and choose shows or shy away from them because there may or may not be other dogs entered there and I don't really enter for the points but I'm going to bl00dy celebrate long and hard if we get them - hahaha.

Edit to add - I totally agree with the more stringent requirements on the GR CH but let us rank amateuers have our small wins with our 100 point CH. It's not my fault for entering enough shows to get them - if the judges think my dog is cr@p, they don't have to award them.

interesting, i had to take back and refund a buyer who said they knew teeth could go out as the adult teeth came in, had perfect puppy teeth but the adult teeth came in wrong, and on the advice of the ringside gallery was told take it back youve been robbed, if it cant make champion then your entitled to your money back. i gather now if you main register a pup according to the gallery thats a guarantee it can make CH?

anyway, hes rehomed now and his delighted owner rang me to say thanks to him he was alerted a burgler was trying to break into his home. soo demoted from show dog to pet, n hes saved his owner from being burgled.

luckyhe didnt know he shouldnt bark if he dont have perfect teeth eh?

Edited October 4, 2010 by asal

[conztruct]

conztruct - this girl loved the ring, a real show-off. I was only there to hold the lead, she did the rest herself.

When I retired her I still had to take her to shows, put her show lead on and give her a walk around the ring during the lunch break or she would be most upset.

If that were the case there's no way that you should or be expected to take her out of the ring.......congratulations on the achievements - I'm still gunning for my first BIG

I'm a total newbie - I think most people are happy when I turn up with mine because they usually know they're going to win - LOL. I have a lovely, lovely girl who unfortunately has an incorrect bite - it's a real shame because she loves the ring, thinks she's all that, free-stacks for me and moves like a little champ. It doesn't matter to her or me that we don't win because she has a ball so I keep entering her. A comment from a friend when we went to a show up north last weekend "I think that judge really liked her until she opened the mouth......." LOL.

I guess this comes back to what I was saying about getting enough points to gain a CH title and the standard of the exhibits aren't very closely related. Sure if I pick and choose the right shows, I'll probably eventually get enough challenge points for a title but I don't pick and choose shows or shy away from them because there may or may not be other dogs entered there and I don't really enter for the points but I'm going to bl00dy celebrate long and hard if we get them - hahaha.

Edit to add - I totally agree with the more stringent requirements on the GR CH but let us rank amateuers have our small wins with our 100 point CH. It's not my fault for entering enough shows to get them - if the judges think my dog is cr@p, they don't have to award them.

interesting, i had to take back and refund a buyer who said they knew teeth could go out as the adult teeth came in, had perfect puppy teeth but the adult teeth came in wrong, and on the advice of the ringside gallery was told take it back youve been robbed, if it cant make champion then your entitled to your money back. i gather now if you main register a pup according to the gallery thats a guarantee it can make CH?

anyway, hes rehomed now and his delighted owner rang me to say thanks to him he was alerted a burgler was trying to break into his home. soo demoted from show dog to pet, n hes saved his owner from being burgled.

luckyhe didnt know he shouldnt bark if he dont have perfect teeth eh?

That's a shame - it's a little sad when people demand a refund when things don't work out perfectly. I mean, especially if you're totally aware that that's what can happen and no guarantees are made by the breeder. The ringside gallery can be brutal at times and I've certainly received advice from them in the past but I think you need to take it with a grain of salt and make your own decisions - otherwise you'll never get anything that is quite good enough for the "gallery" and you'll annoy a hell of a lot of breeders in the process.

Sure, it was a shame when my girl's mouth went out but a few bad teeth doesn't make a dog a pile of rubbish (well, maybe in some people's eyes).

Sometimes I think we're on the wrong side of a bit of a teeth bias when we show but we're well and truly in it for participation and enjoyment rather than winning. My win comes from people commenting outside the ring at how great she looked and moved around the ring and how well trained she is, even if we do come last in our class . I think we'll probably achieve a championship title which is all nice but then we'll be moving onto our new challenge at obedience because she's super smart and will enjoy this too I'm sure (ok so maybe I'm a little biased - lol).

[Shaar]

That's a shame - it's a little sad when people demand a refund when things don't work out perfectly. I mean, especially if you're totally aware that that's what can happen and no guarantees are made by the breeder. The ringside gallery can be brutal at times and I've certainly received advice from them in the past but I think you need to take it with a grain of salt and make your own decisions - otherwise you'll never get anything that is quite good enough for the "gallery" and you'll annoy a hell of a lot of breeders in the process.

Sure, it was a shame when my girl's mouth went out but a few bad teeth doesn't make a dog a pile of rubbish (well, maybe in some people's eyes).

Sometimes I think we're on the wrong side of a bit of a teeth bias when we show but we're well and truly in it for participation and enjoyment rather than winning. My win comes from people commenting outside the ring at how great she looked and moved around the ring and how well trained she is, even if we do come last in our class . I think we'll probably achieve a championship title which is all nice but then we'll be moving onto our new challenge at obedience because she's super smart and will enjoy this too I'm sure (ok so maybe I'm a little biased - lol).

It depends on how severe the fault it. If it is a disqualifying fault then, yes I do believe asking for a refund is ok, after all you buy a show dog, you should get a show dog.

If the fault is not so bad that the dog can't be shown then bad luck... every dog has at least one fault.

[conztruct]

It depends on how severe the fault it. If it is a disqualifying fault then, yes I do believe asking for a refund is ok, after all you buy a show dog, you should get a show dog.

If the fault is not so bad that the dog can't be shown then bad luck... every dog has at least one fault.

I agree with you Shaar if the dog is being sold as a guaranteed show dog. In my experience though most breeders (and I can only speak for my own breed) make no guarantees that a pup or dog will be show quality (with an older dog though it's sometimes easier to know if they'll be alright to show).

If the pup or dog does come with a guarantee of show quality then I think return and refund is appropriate but I think that if you buy a pup or dog in the hope of showing them but have been advised that there is no guarantee of show quality (and I believe in this case from the other posts the buyer was aware of potential issues) I think demanding a refund from the breeder is a bit much to expect - sure, sell the pup as a pet and try again but to make the breeder responsible is a little rich IMHO only.

Without all the circumstances behind the situation Asal was referring to, we can't really know and it's not my place to judge - the above are just some hypotheticals.

[mirawee]

The only time I would not show a dog is to let a bitch get the final points needed for her Ch before having a litter if they are only a few off. Saying that though I don't attend every show anyway :rolleyes:

You can tell that those saying you should have to have a 25 point BOB or BIG are from breeds with big numbers. In my opinion the Grand title should be changed and 25 Point BOB not be acceptable as it descriminates against lower number breeds who have to get BIG beating those dogs who might have achieved a 25 point BOB on the same day! Make the playing field fair for all breeds. As it is at the moment breeds such as Dobermans and Labradors can get a Grand title without ever beating another breed.

And personally I don't think that a 25 point BIG is needed for a champion title. But then I have breeds of dog that quite a few judges, both Australian and definitely internationals, still look at as if to wonder what they are :D

That's bollocks. One of mine that I titled very early on was at that time a rare breed and it was rare to get any competition at all, he earnt his title with group, classes in show and a long list of them.

You could take the 25 pointers away from my Staffords and every one of them would still have earnt their title with a BIG. The same goes for my Pointers and the Whippet.

I'd like to see the requirements for a title increased, they are handed out like lollies in some cases and people can still earn them 6 points at a time. I don't buy the " my breed is rare " line

If they would have gotten the group awards anyway what is the problem with doing away with the 25 point CC clause? I have no problems with dogs requiring a 25 point BIG to get their grand title as I stated. I have a problem with numerically superior dogs only requiring a 25 point CC. Why can't the playing field be level for ALL dogs?

Have you ever shown a rare breed (not one just with low numbers)? I have had judges who have watched our breed enter the ring then gone and asked the steward what breed they are judging as they have never seen them before Oh and I have also made the effort and spent several grand in order to show our rare breed in another state so that he had competition (and he was awarded BOB in 2 of the 3 shows) so even though he titled on 6 point challenges due to being the only dog in the State he has beaten dogs who have multiple Group awards But according to you he should not have his Champion title as he has not beaten the many BIS winning grand champions that are shown week in week out in our group from more well known breeds to score a BIG (he has been awarded a ruBIG)

Edited October 6, 2010 by mirawee

[BittyMooPeeb]

I voted "maybe" for pulling a dog out so another could title, and "no" for expecting others to do this for me.

I may not enter a dog to help out a friend if the reasons were right. Not everyone has endless time and opportunity to title against all the big winners. That said though, I would not expect anyone to do this for me, and so far they havent LOL.

[Shaar]

I agree with you Shaar if the dog is being sold as a guaranteed show dog. In my experience though most breeders (and I can only speak for my own breed) make no guarantees that a pup or dog will be show quality (with an older dog though it's sometimes easier to know if they'll be alright to show).

If the pup or dog does come with a guarantee of show quality then I think return and refund is appropriate but I think that if you buy a pup or dog in the hope of showing them but have been advised that there is no guarantee of show quality (and I believe in this case from the other posts the buyer was aware of potential issues) I think demanding a refund from the breeder is a bit much to expect - sure, sell the pup as a pet and try again but to make the breeder responsible is a little rich IMHO only.

Without all the circumstances behind the situation Asal was referring to, we can't really know and it's not my place to judge - the above are just some hypotheticals.

Completely agree. Some people do tend to assume the dogs will be guaranteed, especially if they are new to the show world, but unless the breeder is selling an adult dog you never know exactly how they will turn out.

I had an agreement that if something drastic happened then there would be a heavy discount on the next dog, not a complete refund, as although the dog didn't work out as a show dog, you still get a wonderful pet, but it was a refund that equalled a little over what they charge for pet quality.

[Irish Lassy]

NO and NO

I wouldnt felt i had earned my ch. title

Having a breed that is not being shown much- the more competition the better!! I cherish to ever see another IW in the ring!!

[Lowenhart]

I have pulled dogs to allow others to title or give them a more even chance.

Right now I regularly exhibit against one of the top 5 dogs all breeds in Australia, my dogs rarely get to see the group line up despite my thinking they are of quality to beat the dog. It's a nice dog with a lot of wins under it's belt. I have no issues with the dog or it's owner, but after 3 years of RuBOBs it gets a little frustrating.

So to finish my dogs or even to get them into a BIG line up I have to travel to get away from that dog. My dogs do manage to pick up groups, against nice competition in other breeds.

So I understand the frustration of someone just trying to get the final points on their dog but constantly getting pipped at the post. I have no qualms dropping a champion from a show to give them a chance to gain some points. As long as I feel the dog or the circumstances warrant it.

[Trisven13]

I had to ask my breeder to STOP pulling his dogs out so that my dogs could win or lose on their merits on the day. Thankfully he learnt that I don't mind losing, I just love having more than a couple of Fauves in the ring - and when I do win it is sooo much sweeter when there is competition.