Another Dog Park Question

[aussielover]

The problem with exercising your dog in off peak time is that owners of "problem" dogs also tend to be there in off peak times as well.

I have encountered a number people with aggressive dogs during off peak park times, though none as rude as this person.

They have usually said "my dog is aggressive" (surely that would be enough to keep a sensible person away????) and will grab their dog or put a leash on it to let us pass.

Some nice, responsible owners even start to leave the park when they see us coming, if they explain that their dog doesn't like others etc, then i happy happy to pop my dog onto a leash and take her for a leash walk around the streets because I do understand how difficult it is for them. I just don't think rudeness gets you anywhere and owners of aggressive dogs should make some effort contain their dog (at least grab hold of it or something), and MOST do, if another dog comes into the vicinity, until the other owner can get their dog.

[Aussienot]

Unless someone has seen this dog behead another dog, emotional conjecture about what 'could' happen in various situations have no factual basis. We can assume the owner wanted other dogs to stay away, but his choice of words "it will rip your dog's head off" seem just a tad exagerated to me. Said for effect of keeping people away, rather than a literal description of the dog's social behaviour.

In this case the dog did not aggress, the owner did.

A. All dog parks are risky - with rude, undersocialised, under exercised, and boisterous dogs who just want to say Hi

B. A lot of dog owners who frequent dog parks do not have effective control of their dogs

C. A lot of people who frequent dog parks do not consider the needs of others

If you don't like A, B and C stay in your own yard with your dog. There you can make all the rules that you want. If you go choose to a public dog park, you take your chances with the public and their dogs.

[chellz]

I think this thread has turned into 'rude / boisterous dogs rushing a reactive dog '...

But aussielover's post was actually something different - her dog was not rushing the reactive dog... she was minding her own business and walking in the park when this guy made the comment.

I can understand how some people are anxious about over-friendly dogs rushing their reactive dogs...i totally get it, i would be anxious too. But equally, people have a right to get anxious if an aggressive dog is running around off-lead in close proximity to their dogs. I just don't think it's safe, for any of the parties involved. I am talking about offleash dog parks, not walking on a sideway or on the street, in which case, dogs must be on leash and then these incidents shouldn't happen ( I also hate it when people come up to me in the street saying 'my dog just wants to say hi' because a lot of the times, their dogs ARE reactive and I prefer to just walk in peace, I've actually started saying 'sorry, it's better not to as she's just had a bad experience with a dog').

The thing is, many people with reactive dogs have commented 'Well , I have a right to be there and people with no effective control don't have a right to be in the dog park' - I think part of the problem is 'effective control' is quite hard to define...a dog's recall might be 99% (I don't think there is such a thing as 100% recall) - but what about that 1% chance that the dog will run over? Even in a perfect world, with all dog owners who take their dogs to the park having perfect control over their dogs, there will be incidents where the dogs will mess up (they're dogs after all, they're not perfect, and neither are we humans).

So the best thing is for all parties to be as safe and responsible as possible. Yes, this includes dog owners trying to ensure as good a recall as possible; but it also includes dog owners keeping others safe from their reactive dogs. I know that legally a dog that hasn't been declared dangerous (YET) doesn't have to be muzzled, but wouldn't it be safer for everyone involved if a dog who can potentially 'rip' another dog's head off is muzzled? Just in the interest of public safety? AND definitely on a leash...

Also 'effective control' applies also to owners with reactive/DA dogs. If an aggressive dog attacks mine, can that dog owner say their dog is under control??

agree

Quote:

"The thing is, many people with reactive dogs have commented 'Well , I have a right to be there and people with no effective control don't have a right to be in the dog park' - I think part of the problem is 'effective control' is quite hard to define...a dog's recall might be 99% (I don't think there is such a thing as 100% recall) - but what about that 1% chance that the dog will run over? Even in a perfect world, with all dog owners who take their dogs to the park having perfect control over their dogs, there will be incidents where the dogs will mess up (they're dogs after all, they're not perfect, and neither are we humans).

So the best thing is for all parties to be as safe and responsible as possible. Yes, this includes dog owners trying to ensure as good a recall as possible; but it also includes dog owners keeping others safe from their reactive dogs. I know that legally a dog that hasn't been declared dangerous (YET) doesn't have to be muzzled, but wouldn't it be safer for everyone involved if a dog who can potentially 'rip' another dog's head off is muzzled? Just in the interest of public safety? AND definitely on a leash..."

Edited September 29, 2010 by chellz

[persephone]

Unless someone has seen this dog behead another dog, emotional conjecture about what 'could' happen in various situations have no factual basis. We can assume the owner wanted other dogs to stay away, but his choice of words "it will rip your dog's head off" seem just a tad exagerated to me. Said for effect of keeping people away, rather than a literal description of the dog's social behaviour.

In this case the dog did not aggress, the owner did.

A. All dog parks are risky - with rude, undersocialised, under exercised, and boisterous dogs who just want to say Hi

B. A lot of dog owners who frequent dog parks do not have effective control of their dogs

C. A lot of people who frequent dog parks do not consider the needs of others

If you don't like A, B and C stay in your own yard with your dog. There you can make all the rules that you want. If you go choose to a public dog park, you take your chances with the public and their dogs.

X2. and I have bolded the bit I wish to repeat .

[poodlefan]

100% agree with what you just said Well said!!!! Id like to see an agruement for this responce hahahaha

I'll try. No one's got an issue with what Aussiedog did or did not do. Some people tried to explain that the rude person may have exaggerated his dogs aggression to keep her away.

I tell you this much Chellz. If you take your baby Labrador puppy to any offleash dog area populated by unknown dogs, you'll be setting yourself up for trouble. After the first few times a couple of large dogs jump all over your pup, you may start to see the point about 'effective control' that I've been trying to make.

It takes TWO DOGS to make an aggression incident. The responsibility for preventing those incidents lies with TWO OWNERS. Its all well and good to point out (correctly) that dogs with a history of serious aggresion (read the article for more on that) shouldn't be in dog parks but the fact remains that if all dog owners controlled and read their dogs well, incidents in such places would plummet.

[poochiemama]

Obviously this is a very fraught issue...

these sort of situations are becoming more and more frequent in dog parks. I can't enjoy going to them anymore because I'm so anxious something will happen.

I'm actually thinking of walking them more and not taking them to the park - looking for alternatives to the dog park. I guess one option is doing the walks, and then taking them to doggie day care for their socialisation a couple of times a month. It's expensive but my thinking is that the dogs there are temperament tested at least and you'd think they'd be well socialised and not reactive otherwise their owners wouldn't take them there. There are no guarantees of course, but it's a very supervised environment (you'd hope).

Just a thought aussielover.

[poodlefan]

Obviously this is a very fraught issue...

these sort of situations are becoming more and more frequent in dog parks. I can't enjoy going to them anymore because I'm so anxious something will happen.

I'm actually thinking of walking them more and not taking them to the park - looking for alternatives to the dog park. I guess one option is doing the walks, and then taking them to doggie day care for their socialisation a couple of times a month. It's expensive but my thinking is that the dogs there are temperament tested at least and you'd think they'd be well socialised and not reactive otherwise their owners wouldn't take them there. There are no guarantees of course, but it's a very supervised environment (you'd hope).

Just a thought aussielover.

The irony of dog parks is that you're supposed to have good offlead control but many folk who have NO CONTROL take their dogs their to run within the fences. When you spot a dog hauling its owner on lead to the gate, that's a signal to leave.

Perhaps a threshold question is to ask yourself if your dogs really need to socialise with strange dogs? Dogs are pack animals - many dogs don't care whether they do or not.

I walk my dogs in bush (where a person who can't recall their dog isn't going to go) and go to the dog club with friends. However, even at the dog club, I'm careful about what dogs mine run with.

[poochiemama]

100% agree with what you just said Well said!!!! Id like to see an agruement for this responce hahahaha

I'll try. No one's got an issue with what Aussiedog did or did not do. Some people tried to explain that the rude person may have exaggerated his dogs aggression to keep her away.

I tell you this much Chellz. If you take your baby Labrador puppy to any offleash dog area populated by unknown dogs, you'll be setting yourself up for trouble. After the first few times a couple of large dogs jump all over your pup, you may start to see the point about 'effective control' that I've been trying to make.

It takes TWO DOGS to make an aggression incident. The responsibility for preventing those incidents lies with TWO OWNERS. Its all well and good to point out (correctly) that dogs with a history of serious aggresion (read the article for more on that) shouldn't be in dog parks but the fact remains that if all dog owners controlled and read their dogs well, incidents in such places would plummet.

I agree with you PF. It does take two dogs to make an aggression incident. Unfortunately I'm not too hopeful that incidents in these places would plummet anytime soon. The fact is , none of us have 'effective control' over our dogs - at least not in the way that would prevent such incidents from happening. It's the sad reality. Hence why I'm thinking of alternatives to dog parks.

My definition of 'effective control' for the purpose of safely visiting an area populated by many dogs offleash is

1. 100% recall and

2. being able to 100%, effectively stop your dog from attacking another dog. I don't think either is feasible.

[poodlefan]

PM:

The fact is , none of us have 'effective control' over our dogs - at least not in the way that would prevent such incidents from happening. It's the sad reality. Hence why I'm thinking of alternatives to dog parks.

I can safely and reliably call my dogs away from others and can control greetings - that's all the control required to keep the incidents from happening IF other owners can do the same. Sadly, its rare to see.

Edited September 29, 2010 by poodlefan

[Kavik]

Obviously this is a very fraught issue...

these sort of situations are becoming more and more frequent in dog parks. I can't enjoy going to them anymore because I'm so anxious something will happen.

I'm actually thinking of walking them more and not taking them to the park - looking for alternatives to the dog park. I guess one option is doing the walks, and then taking them to doggie day care for their socialisation a couple of times a month. It's expensive but my thinking is that the dogs there are temperament tested at least and you'd think they'd be well socialised and not reactive otherwise their owners wouldn't take them there. There are no guarantees of course, but it's a very supervised environment (you'd hope).

Just a thought aussielover.

Although dog daycares may not have aggressive dogs, the ARE highly populated by rude, overly boisterous dogs and sometimes have a high volume of dogs per amount of area. If your dog does not like dogs in its face, I would not go to a dog daycare.

I avoid dog parks and instead frequent other less populated parks and areas.

[poochiemama]

Kavik,

I don't have any experience with doggie daycare - it's a good point about boisterous dogs being there. And you wouldn't want your dogs picking up bad habits either.

Poodlefan,

You are absolutely right in what you say... As you know, I learnt my lesson the hard way when Hannah was attacked and I realised I had to have better control over her - I've organised a trainer to see us and improve her recall amongst other things. I am doing what I can as a responsible dog owner to make sure the chances of these things happening is minimised. Clearly, as a responsible dog owner, you too make sure you minimise the chances of anything happening by walking your dogs in places where chances of an off-lead dog rushing up to them is low.

My only issue, and this is back to aussielover's situation, is dog owners with aggressive dogs letting their dogs loose in an offleash park, armed with the reason 'Well, I have effective control over my dog, if only you did too your dog wouldn't get bitten'. I don't think that's fair and i don't think it's realistic to expect that. If they don't want to keep the dog on a leash or muzzled, that's fine, but don't take it to an offleash dog park, it's a disaster waiting to happen.

[lappiemum]

All of this just reinforces my veiw that off lead dog parks are to be avoided, regardless of how friendly your dog is, or how well controlled it is.

[oakway]

All of this just reinforces my veiw that off lead dog parks are to be avoided, regardless of how friendly your dog is, or how well controlled it is.

You never said a truer word.

[poochiemama]

All of this just reinforces my veiw that off lead dog parks are to be avoided, regardless of how friendly your dog is, or how well controlled it is.

True LM,

Off-topic, i never knew much about lapphunds but just looked at your website and they are just breathtaking dogs.

[kelpiechick]

The problem with exercising your dog in off peak time is that owners of "problem" dogs also tend to be there in off peak times as well.

I have encountered a number people with aggressive dogs during off peak park times, though none as rude as this person.

They have usually said "my dog is aggressive" (surely that would be enough to keep a sensible person away????) and will grab their dog or put a leash on it to let us pass.

Some nice, responsible owners even start to leave the park when they see us coming, if they explain that their dog doesn't like others etc, then i happy happy to pop my dog onto a leash and take her for a leash walk around the streets because I do understand how difficult it is for them. I just don't think rudeness gets you anywhere and owners of aggressive dogs should make some effort contain their dog (at least grab hold of it or something), and MOST do, if another dog comes into the vicinity, until the other owner can get their dog.

Aussielover -

From reading your posts you are obviously a responsible dog owner with some knowledge of dog behaviour, unfortunately the guy who sounded so rude doesn't know that, just as you don't know the history behind him feeling the need to speak like that.

As I have already said that I too would probably give a similar response if the need ever arose, I am guessing that like me, in the past he has had quite a few incidents with other dog owners not quite so responsible and is now sick of it, so has decided that he will take drastic measures to keep anyone away.

As lots of others have said, it is also quite possible that the dog is not aggressive at all - although I spoke about my kelpie that doesn't like strange dogs,(and very rarely gives any response that I would label as aggression, btw, it's more of an ears down, tail between the legs, I'm uncomfortable with the situation type response) I also have one that is a total social butterfly but I would probably make the same response when strange dogs approached him too as basically I don't want my dogs interacting with another dog until I have some information about that dog first.

You are right in that a politer response may have kept sensible people away, but I have found from my experience that the vast majority of people I have encountered in offlead parks are actually not all that sensible.

So I would take his comments as being aimed at the vast majority of people rather than at you personally - I feel awful afterwards if I have to make a rude response to a stranger, but my dogs come first and it's often a spur of the moment response that is 'dramatic' because it is the only thing that works.

The issue of aggressive dogs being in public places is a whole other one not necessarily related to this thread and taking it off track , but from what I understand this particular dog is being labelled as aggressive totally on the words of the owner - and as several of us have said there could be other reasons for that- and at no time did the dog's actions support this.

[Red Fox]

Okay thats a new one!! Its the owners fault the dog attacks.. just when i thought ive heard it all..

you need to rethink what you just said and read this ' A dog is an animal' They are not human!! A friendly dog (even the most common friendly breed the labrador' can still attack another dog or a human. .

If you are going to read anything i have said(which clearly you havent done previously) ill put this simple.

1. If the owner has an agressive dog(which clearly what the owner stated "keep your dog away or it will rip its head off" it should NEVER be in an off leash area where there are other dogs or people around (like the OP said it is a well known popular dog park'

2. If the dog didnt attack or hasent attacked another person or dog then no you can report it (unless the dog is deemed dangerous it should have a MUZZLE and be on a lead)

3. You cant blame other dog owners for not having their dog under control (its in an off leash area in a popular park, they have a right to walk their dog without worrying that their is an agressive dog on the loose (which i have already pointed out an aggressive dog should be on a leash anyways and if the aggressive dog is on a leash and the owner of the friendly dog approaches then yes it would be the dog of the owner with a friendly dogs fault ) but the main point an agressive dog should not be off the lead like the OP stated.

What!? Who ELSE do you blame? The dog? The law is that OWNERS must have their dogs under effective control in a public area, not dogs must keep themselves under control and accidents happen..

4. Any dog can attack, it could be off or on the lead, a friendly, agressive or timid dog.. they are an animal and anyone who says otherwise is just plain ignorant.

I could go on but considering you probally have already got a reply in your head and are not paying attention ill end it there! I have said all these points in previous posts so feel free to go back over them..

So by your reasoning then ALL dogs better be on leash then because they all have the potential to be aggressive - not just the ones where the owner actually warns you that might. Of course any dog has the potential to attack another - if it is not under control of the owner.

Unless someone has seen this dog behead another dog, emotional conjecture about what 'could' happen in various situations have no factual basis. We can assume the owner wanted other dogs to stay away, but his choice of words "it will rip your dog's head off" seem just a tad exagerated to me. Said for effect of keeping people away, rather than a literal description of the dog's social behaviour.

In this case the dog did not aggress, the owner did.

A. All dog parks are risky - with rude, undersocialised, under exercised, and boisterous dogs who just want to say Hi

B. A lot of dog owners who frequent dog parks do not have effective control of their dogs

C. A lot of people who frequent dog parks do not consider the needs of others

If you don't like A, B and C stay in your own yard with your dog. There you can make all the rules that you want. If you go choose to a public dog park, you take your chances with the public and their dogs.

Agree 100%

All of this just reinforces my veiw that off lead dog parks are to be avoided, regardless of how friendly your dog is, or how well controlled it is.

Yep.. Accident waiting to happen IMO.

[♥Baxter♥]

.. he warned you - no one was attacked, and I guess he is entitled to take his dog to the park too ? I don't see anything to report, sorry.

Ditto - Also I'm thinking - This guy obviously knows that his dog his DA yet he is going on the offpeak time at the park, to still do the right thing for his dog - He probably sounded 'rude' just to make it crystal clear & avoid ANY trouble whatsoever - I personally don't like being approach just because I'm playing with my dog at the park. Its not an invitation for other dogs to join in - thats how I see it

Edited September 30, 2010 by ♥Baxter♥

[lappiemum]

All of this just reinforces my veiw that off lead dog parks are to be avoided, regardless of how friendly your dog is, or how well controlled it is.

True LM,

Off-topic, i never knew much about lapphunds but just looked at your website and they are just breathtaking dogs.

Thanks

All of my dogs go to the dol kepala meet regularly where it is fenced and there are other dol people who are responsible & who monitor their dogs & supervise what goes on. We are able to separate dogs if the play should get out of hand but in all the time I have been going we have never had a problem. However unfenced public offleash dog parks are very risky IMO & we therefor avoid them - sad but that's the reality of it.

[shells]

I hope you understand that most dogs, given sufficent provocation from a rude strange dog WILL snap. Snapping is a warning - not an "attack".

A dog under effective control does not blow off its owner and run up to other dogs. Not all dogs care to interact with strange dogs. It pays to bear that in mind

Well said PF. We use our off leash park daily and my 2 have "friends" they like to play but rude, boisterous dogs (especially who are humpers) are definitely not welcomed. Have you tried the area near Mt Majura? Off peak it is quite a lovely, quiet place to take the dogs.

Now I am going to finish my coffee and take my 2 off to the dog park

[MalteseLuna]

.. he warned you - no one was attacked, and I guess he is entitled to take his dog to the park too ? I don't see anything to report, sorry.

I don't think people with aggressive dogs have are entiltled have their dog offleash in public, even if it is an offleash park. Perhaps while there is no one around, but certainly not in the presence of potential victims...

Though obviously, I can't prove his dog was aggressive as there way no way we were going to get close enough to find out.

I do think it is just a disaster waiting to happen as he clearly had no intention of ensuring the safety of others (that is if the dogs IS actually aggressive). There are not many dogs with perfect recall, and i have to say that a lot of the dogs that do go to this park have very little recall.

When we did go to a separate area, an 8-10 week old cocker puppy rushed up to my dog and would not return to the owner. The owner started walking off and I actually thought for a minute there that they were going to leave me with the puppy!!!

I had to warn them not to go near the aggressive dog because i am sure that would have ended badly

Oh well, I guess I can't really do anything, which is a bit frustrating.

I would report it. A dog that is aggressive to other dogs should NEVER be taken to an off-lead park. It is an accident waiting to happen.