Bowed Front Legs

[asal]

friend has a 3 week litter. one pup is weird. the main leg bone of the forelegs are bowed outwards. like you expect in a duschund?

except this pup is a cattle dog??

any ideas whats going on, its half the size of its littermates now although was same size at birth. i can fit my thumb in the curveature.

the bone is certainly thick and strong. doesnt feel or look rickety, strong as and a real goer

is going to take it to the vet just in case

just wondering is there a dwafe gene in aust cattle dogs?

Edited September 28, 2010 by asal

[dancinbcs]

The puppy needs to be x-rayed to find out what is going on. I saw a puppy a couple of years ago with a bowed front like that and it had no shoulder joints. The shoulder blade crossed over the upper arm instead if joining it. It wasn't a working breed though. The vets who deal with a lot of breeders of many different breeds had never seen anything like it. Seems that the puppy just didn't form properly.

Dwarfism is always possible in any breed as a spontaneous mutation and there are different forms of it. Some breeds are known to carry genes for it but I am not sure about Cattle Dogs.

[supercharged]

Definately vet visit.......in over ten years breeding cattle dogs I have never had a "dwarf" but the does not mean it does not happen

Maybe another medical condition causing it, had a friend with a little bitch pup that never developed properly and started running backwards all the time, domey head shape and really small eyes, she was pts at six week check due to some disease.

[asal]

thanks, i will give her a ring and tell her.

except for the legs she looks quite normal in every other way i did feel the shoulders and joints and all felt normal. it was the actual leg bones betwen elbow and joint that are weirdly bent, never seen anything like it, save a litter of mini duchunds i saw once, remember their breeder saying it was the same gene that shortens bassets n dandi dinmonts.

but in a cattle dog? totally weird

[asal]

ho yay inspector rex is on

[persephone]

no chance of her having a different father?

[asal]

:cool: no chance of her having a different father?

u read my mind..... although sure looks like a purebred? welllll till u hit the forelegs

Edited September 29, 2010 by asal

[espinay2]

While I beleive Dwarfism hasnt yet surfaced in the ACD, it is certainly possible that it could. In the Pyrenean Mountian Dog this happened in the 1970's in the US - before then it had not been seen in the breed. It is possible that it was caused by a genetic mutation which, as it was recessive, did not show up until two carriers were mated.

If it is suspected to be Dwarfism I would encourage full investigation, thorough diagnosis and testing and open reporting as if it is Dwarfism it would likely mean that both parents were carriers. It is something that needs to be out in the open and known so that the condition doesn't become too prevalent in the breed.

A page with pictures of Dwarfism in some other breeds here: Dwarf other Breeds

While Dwarfism has different forms, here is a page which shows what we are doing in our breed regarding the condition: Dwarfism in Pyrenean Mountain Dogs

If your friend wants a contact with someone who has had Dwarfism show in their lines and is highly active in Dwarfism education and research in our breed, I am happy to put them in touch. She may be able to provide some guidance and advice on how to proceed.

[asal]

While I beleive Dwarfism hasnt yet surfaced in the ACD, it is certainly possible that it could. In the Pyrenean Mountian Dog this happened in the 1970's in the US - before then it had not been seen in the breed. It is possible that it was caused by a genetic mutation which, as it was recessive, did not show up until two carriers were mated.

If it is suspected to be Dwarfism I would encourage full investigation, thorough diagnosis and testing and open reporting as if it is Dwarfism it would likely mean that both parents were carriers. It is something that needs to be out in the open and known so that the condition doesn't become too prevalent in the breed.

A page with pictures of Dwarfism in some other breeds here: Dwarf other Breeds

While Dwarfism has different forms, here is a page which shows what we are doing in our breed regarding the condition: Dwarfism in Pyrenean Mountain Dogs

If your friend wants a contact with someone who has had Dwarfism show in their lines and is highly active in Dwarfism education and research in our breed, I am happy to put them in touch. She may be able to provide some guidance and advice on how to proceed.

the pic of the PBGV is just what it looks like. nnnnnn just learned a neighbour has a duschund?????

so? could it affect with just one parent? or would the mum still have to be a carrier as well?

will be really interesting as it grows to see if it does end up looking like a duschund x cattle

at birth they all looked identical soo some sluthing to do

[persephone]

Someone I know pulled up in their vehicle.. had a gorgeous looking boof of an ACD sitting in the car .big boof head, perfect markings .. big dog.

it hopped out of the car ....and was only the height of a corgi!! Cracked me up .this ACD with no legs (well, perfectly serviceable legs ,just only a few inches long! He had no idea of its parentage . It was a lovely dog ;)

[espinay2]

If an accidental mating with the dog next door is suspected, I would DNA test to confirm parentage. (will need to do that to register the litter anyway if there is any question). They will know then for sure and can make decisions based on that.

Yes, Dwarfs can look cute. In our breed that cuteness is a problem as there are other health issues related to the condition which mean the dogs don't always have the heathiest or longest life. Not a condition you generally want to promote.

Edited to add - if the dog Persephone saw was a purebred ACD, it is possible that Dwarfism has already shown up in the breed but breeders have perhaps not talked about it. Not good as it means that potential carriers may not not be being identified and the possibility of the condition showing up in more and more places with each generation will increase. If that is the case I encourage breeders to talk about it now, not wait until it becomes a bigger issue.

Edited September 29, 2010 by espinay2

[asal]

dont think she is at all happy with what ive told the puppys breeder LOL

but yes come to think of it there were midget cattledogs in the 1974's

saw em

looked like blue corgies and they were aust champs

a neighbour at bringelly had 3 of em didnt come halfway up to my knee

to me a cattle dog u have to bend to pat is undersize LOL

n no im not tall defianatly a shortie

Edited September 29, 2010 by asal

[oakway]

dont think she is at all happy with what ive told the puppys breeder LOL

but yes come to think of it there were midget cattledogs in the 1974's

saw em

looked like blue corgies and they were aust champs

a neighbour at bringelly had 3 of em didnt come halfway up to my knee

to me a cattle dog u have to bend to pat is undersize LOL

n no im not tall defianatly a shortie

Heights for Australian Cattle Dogs

Height: Dogs 46-51 cms (approx. 18-20 ins) at withers

Bitches 43-48 cms (approx. 17-19 ins) at withers

asal they not meant to be a tall dog.

[asal]

dont think she is at all happy with what ive told the puppys breeder LOL

but yes come to think of it there were midget cattledogs in the 1974's

saw em

looked like blue corgies and they were aust champs

a neighbour at bringelly had 3 of em didnt come halfway up to my knee

to me a cattle dog u have to bend to pat is undersize LOL

n no im not tall defianatly a shortie

Heights for Australian Cattle Dogs

Height: Dogs 46-51 cms (approx. 18-20 ins) at withers

Bitches 43-48 cms (approx. 17-19 ins) at withers

asal they not meant to be a tall dog.

lol they wernt meant to be the height of a corgi either . n what i saw in 1974 was couldnt believe it when they showed me their papers and were australian champions to boot

apparently it was the fashion at the time she said judges were wanting them small and nuggety. n i looked and wondered

now they are back to the dogs i grew up with, thank goodness

remember in the 80's think it was 89?

penrith show, a couple there were so wide between the ears when i put a hand on ones head. neither side of my hand was touching an ear. when i commented to my vet his reply then was they are so going for the wider and wider heads, im now getting more cattle bitches in for ceaser than chihuahua's now.

so much for improving em,,, straight to the ceaser table

they never had heads that wide in the 60's n i notice in 2010 they arent as wide as i saw at that penrith show, nice to see the wide drive has slowed or hopefully stopped?.

Edited September 30, 2010 by asal

[Tapferhund]

Sounds like it could be a Chondro dwarfism pup?