Any Tips For Keeping Attention During Distractions

[Kavik]

From what I have seen of Koehler method, it is about suppressing drive, I don't think it would be that compatible with training in drive. Of course you want your dog to be able to LLW regardless of what sport you participate in (since no one wants their arms ripped off when out walking), I'm just not sure I would use Koehler to teach it for a competition dog.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Kavik

[Kavik]

Ok have been searching YouTube . . .

Found this example of teaching attention using Koehler method. Seems pretty accurate to the method from what I know and have seen. What I notice the most is that the trainer is looking for opportunities to correct (and when one doesn't present itself he waits the dog out til the dog gets bored to create an opportunity to correct). Also note the dog's body language and energy level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCmvI6LwMpQ

I like methods like clicker training for attention where you look for opportunities to reward instead of opportunities to correct. And they also look so happy and excited when training with a clicker.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Kavik

[JulesP]

Kavik that is not at all how I interpreted the method. The dog is supposed to correct itself the handler isn't supposed to be yanking.

This I thought explained it well - http://www.koehlerdogtraining.com/

[SpecTraining]

Kavik that is not at all how I interpreted the method. The dog is supposed to correct itself the handler isn't supposed to be yanking.

This I thought explained it well - http://www.koehlerdogtraining.com/

Correct JulesP. The video Kavik posted is not Koehler leash work, looks more like Konrad Most style.

Edited October 6, 2010 by SpecTraining

[Kavik]

Well, feel free to post videos then :D I have been searching Youtube and that was the closest I could find.

[SpecTraining]

Well, feel free to post videos then I have been searching Youtube and that was the closest I could find.

Koehler corrects for disobedience and breaking commands. The trainer in the video was standing around with the dog under no instruction then corrected when the dog focused upon something else. Konrad Most was the pioneer of yank and crank using the style of leading the dog into a mistake then correct, where Koehler methods in the situation shown on the video would not correct the dog when it wasn't subject to a command. Koehler would correct the dog in a similar fashion if he had commanded a sit and the dog disobeyed or broke the sit. Koehler methods never correct a dog in that fashion without disobedience from a known command.

Winifred Strickland, a GSD breeder and high profile obedience/performance competitor was one of the first trainers to use Koehler basics adding positive reward as a double reinforcer and creating what we know today as an introduction to a training in drive scenario. She claimed several world titles in pioneering flashy obedience in certain disciplines removing the flatness in performance often seen in dogs trained in purely aversive methods.

[Kavik]

I found this as well (all this under searching Koehler method or Koehler training or Koehler dog - you are more than welcome to post a better example if yo know one)

And you just admitted that training with aversive methods creats flatness in performance so why would someone aiming for performance use it?

[Vickie]

How is your pup going rileys mum?

[SpecTraining]

I found this as well (all this under searching Koehler method or Koehler training or Koehler dog - you are more than welcome to post a better example if yo know one)

And you just admitted that training with aversive methods creats flatness in performance so why would someone aiming for performance use it?

That video is Koehler training and looked good for a 10 month old pup, no lures, no treats and the dog had good focus for the stage of training it had completed with distractions. Yes, aversive methods overdone does have a potential to cause a flatter performance, and is the reason why a combination of aversive and reward methods provides the best of both worlds

[Kavik]

Their heeling was very wide, left turns very sloppy (does not look like they have done rear end awareness with the dog).

[Aidan3]

I found this as well (all this under searching Koehler method or Koehler training or Koehler dog - you are more than welcome to post a better example if yo know one)

And you just admitted that training with aversive methods creats flatness in performance so why would someone aiming for performance use it?

That video is Koehler training and looked good for a 10 month old pup, no lures, no treats and the dog had good focus for the stage of training it had completed with distractions. Yes, aversive methods overdone does have a potential to cause a flatter performance, and is the reason why a combination of aversive and reward methods provides the best of both worlds

How long would you typically keep up the ground work on that before you would expect the dog to be fairly reliable, Garry?

I was actually taught exactly as shown in the video but I wouldn't call it Koehler method, because as I understand it Koehler was very specific about how often you were to train and for how long each time. I doubt anyone (at the club) was doing exactly as he suggested and very few were getting the results that I'm to understand you could expect from following Koehler closely.

To be honest, and I'm not saying this to provoke an argument, but at 10 months any clicker trained dog would be performing significantly better than that. The drops would be on voice cue, probably not "out of motion" but certainly drop from a sit. The dogs would typically show a lot more handler focus, which I'm sure you would agree with and would achieve by adding food or toys to basic Koehler.

[huski]

To be honest, and I'm not saying this to provoke an argument, but at 10 months any clicker trained dog would be performing significantly better than that. The drops would be on voice cue, probably not "out of motion" but certainly drop from a sit. The dogs would typically show a lot more handler focus, which I'm sure you would agree with and would achieve by adding food or toys to basic Koehler.

I agree, I don't think the work in the vid is particularly good. Why bother when you can get far better work faster by motivating your dog with food, toys etc

Edited October 7, 2010 by huski

[Staranais]

Perhaps you are all posting about different things? I would never teach a competition heel using a correction collar, but would be quite happy to teach LLW using one. The two methods can co-exist quite happily in the same dog (at least, they did in my last dog, he had a great LLW and was getting a lovely competition heel). Dogs know when it's time to work for a reward/work in drive, and when it's just time to mind their Ps & Qs on leash.

Like Aidan says too, the Koehler method is pretty specific. I'm not sure I'd want to train a dog that way, it's pretty correction heavy & not very flexible, but it's also worth noting I think, that most people I've met or talked to who say they train Koehler certainly aren't following the method outlined in the book (TKMODT). They're just yanking and cranking their dog around.

[Kavik]

Perhaps you are all posting about different things? I would never teach a competition heel using a correction collar, but would be quite happy to teach LLW using one. The two methods can co-exist quite happily in the same dog (at least, they did in my last dog, he had a great LLW and was getting a lovely competition heel). Dogs know when it's time to work for a reward/work in drive, and when it's just time to mind their Ps & Qs on leash.

Like Aidan says too, the Koehler method is pretty specific. I'm not sure I'd want to train a dog that way, it's pretty correction heavy & not very flexible, but it's also worth noting I think, that most people I've met or talked to who say they train Koehler certainly aren't following the method outlined in the book (TKMODT). They're just yanking and cranking their dog around.

I agree you can teach LLW and competition heeling separately and they know the difference, but Garry said that people trained SchH using Keohler as their basis FIRST and then taught the competition heel. From what I have read of Koehler I also agree it is correction heavy and I don't think you need to be that correction heavy to achieve a good LLW, much less what impact it might have on teaching competition work.