Any Tips For Keeping Attention During Distractions

[Staranais]

Nor do the top level Obedience competitors (speaking for WA)

That's the reason you will find most if not all high level performance trainers use a combination of both positive and negative reinforcement. Positive only methods have been tried and failed training police dogs, security dogs and Schutzund sporting dogs and one's that claim to have trained in positive only methods, no one would ever know the truth or tell the difference in the dogs performance once trained. If positive only methods worked best to achieve the greatest reliablity and performance, the people dedicated to train and win in these disciplines at high level competition wouldn't be training with prongs and E Collars as they do and would be concentrating on positive only methods which they don't is the way I see things.

Interestingly the top level agility trainers don't use physical corrections

It would be kind of interesting to start a poll on what level people here have reached in their chosen discipline, and do they ever use corrections on their dog or not. But, I don't know how to do it.

Both sides will use accomplished people & dogs as examples for not needing, or needing corrections in various disciplines. I'm not sure if it's very helpful. e.g., most SAR dogs get trained in scentwork using reward only methods - but many dogs get washed out of SAR due to low drive, so can we really say that because SAR dogs are trained this way, it's the most suitable method for pets? Same for police work or bitesports - most of these dogs are corrected physically, but then again, most pet dogs couldn't do police or bitework, so can we therefore say that most pet dogs should also be corrected physically? & all of the best agility handlers I know don't correct their dogs duing agility training, but then again, most pet dogs aren't going to ever make the agility nationals, so can you always extrapolate this to pets? etc.

[m-j]

The dog doesn't have to be proofed to individual scenarios like cats dashing across the road as it has two choices, stay put and enjoy tranquility or chase the cat and reach the end of the leash with an uncomfortable outcome

I wouldn't describe being quiet and obedient while having to suppress an innate response through worry of retribution as tranquility, by any stretch of the imagination. Not from what I have observed/experienced anyway.

Nor do the top level Obedience competitors (speaking for WA)

And they are top level too, from what I have seen.

cheers

M-J

The dog doesn't supress anything in that situation, it simply makes a choice and chooses the most comfortable outcome which is to stay put and is more than happy to comply.

Yes it does prey drive is a fixed action pattern. You can't correct hard wiring out of a dog, only suppress it. I would say there would be a great deal of conflict happening.

Edited October 4, 2010 by m-j

[Kavik]

That's the reason you will find most if not all high level performance trainers use a combination of both positive and negative reinforcement. Positive only methods have been tried and failed training police dogs, security dogs and Schutzund sporting dogs and one's that claim to have trained in positive only methods, no one would ever know the truth or tell the difference in the dogs performance once trained. If positive only methods worked best to achieve the greatest reliablity and performance, the people dedicated to train and win in these disciplines at high level competition wouldn't be training with prongs and E Collars as they do and would be concentrating on positive only methods which they don't is the way I see things.

Interestingly the top level agility trainers don't use physical corrections

Top level as in world level or club level here???. Most use E Collars nowdays if you research it

WORLD level. I am going to see Susan Garrett next month, top WORLD level agility competitor. Has several DVDs out, many great innovative ideas on training weaves etc NO physical corrections. Mostly shaping. Some use of NRM. I am sure agility trainers don't use ecollars - why would they?

[huski]

Perhaps I didn't write clearly enough Huski my reference to K9Pro was his approach to training in both negative and positive methods, nothing to do with Koehler in that vein.

If you have never trained in Koehler leash obedience Huski, how do you compare the results with your methods to determine which is most effective???.

Perhaps I am not being clear enough SpecTraining, once again... leash corrections are not the only kind that you can use. There are other ways show your dog there is a consequence for certain actions.

I am not making comparisons between how I train and Koehler style training but simply saying... I have a dog who walks reliably on a loose leash, who was not trained with big leash corrections. In fact I have seen dozens of dogs trained to reliably walk on a loose leash without needing big Koehler style leash corrections.

Besides that, why would I use Koehler style leash corrections to train focus? I trained my dog to be more focused by building her drive, big leash corrections in the drive building stage would have hinder our training not improved it. I corrected her on a check chain plenty of times when we first started obedience and the only thing it did was teach her to switch off in training and made it harder to get her to go into drive when I wanted her to. She's a low drive dog, Koehler methods would be unsuitable and unnecessary to use on her.

Edited October 4, 2010 by huski

[SpecTraining]

The dog doesn't have to be proofed to individual scenarios like cats dashing across the road as it has two choices, stay put and enjoy tranquility or chase the cat and reach the end of the leash with an uncomfortable outcome

I wouldn't describe being quiet and obedient while having to suppress an innate response through worry of retribution as tranquility, by any stretch of the imagination. Not from what I have observed/experienced anyway.

Nor do the top level Obedience competitors (speaking for WA)

And they are top level too, from what I have seen.

cheers

M-J

The dog doesn't supress anything in that situation, it simply makes a choice and chooses the most comfortable outcome which is to stay put and is more than happy to comply.

Yes it does prey drive is a fixed action pattern. You can't correct hard wiring out of a dog, only suppress it. I would say there would be a great deal of conflict happening.

I have heard that explanation given as an excuse for the inability of containing a prey driven animal by command which in reality is untrue. Prey driven animals will loop out often during attempts to suppress the behaviour in an untrained state, but a highly prey driven dog can be trained to sit quietly and mind it's business in the presence of prey quite easily.

[SpecTraining]

Perhaps I didn't write clearly enough Huski my reference to K9Pro was his approach to training in both negative and positive methods, nothing to do with Koehler in that vein.

If you have never trained in Koehler leash obedience Huski, how do you compare the results with your methods to determine which is most effective???.

Perhaps I am not being clear enough SpecTraining, once again... leash corrections are not the only kind that you can use. There are other ways show your dog there is a consequence for certain actions.

I am not making comparisons between how I train and Koehler style training but simply saying... I have a dog who walks reliably on a loose leash, who was not trained with big leash corrections. In fact I have seen dozens of dogs trained to reliably walk on a loose leash without needing big Koehler style leash corrections.

Besides that, why would I use Koehler style leash corrections to train focus? I trained my dog to be more focused by building her drive, big leash corrections in the drive building stage would have hinder our training not improved it. I corrected her on a check chain plenty of times when we first started obedience and the only thing it did was teach her to switch off in training and made it harder to get her to go into drive when I wanted her to. She's a low drive dog, Koehler methods would be unsuitable and unnecessary to use on her.

If you have ever done an about turn with a dog on leash Huski, that's Koehler concept and has nothing to do with mindfully administering big corrections at all. Put a leash on a puppy, walk around changing direction and the puppy gets excited, chases the handler around jumping up and thinks it's a game. Done correctly, the puppy has 100% focus upon what the handler is doing and where the handler is going which is the foundation of the Koehler leash training concept. Couple that up with positive reward to reinforce the focus, results in a very handler focused pup in a short period of time.

The dog at minimal distraction has learned that handler focus is a good thing, then as the dog is subject to higher levels of distraction is the point where handler focus is lost to the distraction and the dog will self correct when not following the handler's direction. Because the dog has been foundation trained to follow the handler, the correction causes the dog to re-think it's action and where it's focus needs to be which is on the handler and not the distraction. When the dog re-focuses, it's reinforced with reward.

Koehler obedience was all about handler focus using a leash as a training tool until proofed, then the leash was thrown away. You can't apply big leash corrections to a leashless dog Koehler ruined his brilliant foundation training concept with rediculous problem solving aversive measures and did himself and his entire systems and injustice IMHO and had he not projected such barbaric problem solving methods, today I am sure his leash training concepts would have been at legendary status where it deserves to be.

Where people mess it up, is not following the foundation training work and beginning at step 6 taking dogs into high distraction areas and applying severe corrections when they don't comply. Take the same dog back into a low distraction area which I have done many times and do some direction changes and the dog has no foundation handler focus whatsoever and is all over the place although it may walk on a loose leash quite ok. Complete the basic focus exercises, then return to areas of higher distraction and you have a completely different and much improved behaviour to work on from there.

Do I think this process would work on your dog Huski, of course, absolutely

Garry

[Kavik]

I've seen Koehler type training. Can it produce good loose leash walking - sure. Good competition style heeling and focus - No.

[SpecTraining]

I've seen Koehler type training. Can it produce good loose leash walking - sure. Good competition style heeling and focus - No.

Of course not, it's not designed to achieve a competition heel, it's designed to achieve handler focus and obedience and once that is established, the competition heel is trained from there. Many Schutzhund dogs are trained in Koehler basics as the foundation and shaped to form a faultless heel as you would be aware

[Kavik]

Actually, as far as I know, Schutzhund dogs are trained in drive, NOT using Koehler

Certainly one thing I have learned about competition obedience (even if I haven't given SchH a go) is that you can't start out training pet style obedience/loose leash walking and progress to competition heeling without some difficulty. It is much better and easier to get the competition focus and style from the beginning.

ETA: This would be a more constructive way of teaching Schutzhund obedience from the start rather than starting with leash corrections

I am not saying SchH people do not use leash corrections (as I know they do) but they certainly do not start with Koehler.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Kavik

[m-j]

The dog doesn't have to be proofed to individual scenarios like cats dashing across the road as it has two choices, stay put and enjoy tranquility or chase the cat and reach the end of the leash with an uncomfortable outcome

I wouldn't describe being quiet and obedient while having to suppress an innate response through worry of retribution as tranquility, by any stretch of the imagination. Not from what I have observed/experienced anyway.

Nor do the top level Obedience competitors (speaking for WA)

And they are top level too, from what I have seen.

cheers

M-J

The dog doesn't supress anything in that situation, it simply makes a choice and chooses the most comfortable outcome which is to stay put and is more than happy to comply.

Yes it does prey drive is a fixed action pattern. You can't correct hard wiring out of a dog, only suppress it. I would say there would be a great deal of conflict happening.

I have heard that explanation given as an excuse for the inability of containing a prey driven animal by command which in reality is untrue. Prey driven animals will loop out often during attempts to suppress the behaviour in an untrained state, but a highly prey driven dog can be trained to sit quietly and mind it's business in the presence of prey quite easily.

Of course they can, I'm not disagreeing with you on that one, but I don't believe the dog is tranquil. Outwardly they may appear that way but they loop out because of fear. It's survival, no good concentrating on chasing the rabbit for dinner if a tiger is chasing you for his dinner. I don't believe either the handler or the dog can stop the initial response to the stimuli, only the behaviour. The dog knows if they display the behaviour their brain is telling them to display, they will receive a correction that at best will be unpleasant, pending on how high the dog's drive is.

[SpecTraining]

Actually, as far as I know, Schutzhund dogs are trained in drive, NOT using Koehler

Certainly one thing I have learned about competition obedience (even if I haven't given SchH a go) is that you can't start out training pet style obedience/loose leash walking and progress to competition heeling without some difficulty. It is much better and easier to get the competition focus and style from the beginning.

ETA: This would be a more constructive way of teaching Schutzhund obedience from the start rather than starting with leash corrections :D

I am not saying SchH people do not use leash corrections (as I know they do) but they certainly do not start with Koehler.

Bearing in mind, a dog must pass a BH before it can progress to Schutzhund training which is a companion animal test (pet test) which requires pet obedience and behaviour. I have trained several for the BH in Koehler, passed and progressed to Schutzhund training. Comments like no one trains in Koehler foundation work in Schutzhund is silly really Kavik, none of us know the exact methods used for every dog that has been Schutzhund titled and personally I don't believe you should make comments like that when it's so plainly obvious that you couldn't possibly know that and neither do I for that matter.

[Kavik]

OK sorry I should have said from what I have seen and can tell and from the research I have done there is a strong move towards training in drive within Schutzhund :D Having seen Koehler style training I don't feel it would produce the more flashy obedience I have seen in Schutzhund, and certainly the clubs I have been to use drive training and toy rewards..

And one thing I totally agree with is train with your end goal in mind.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Kavik

[JulesP]

I train my own dogs to loose lead walk and heel whilst off lead. However when I get my pupils for training the pups are usually around 5 months and their owners have been walking around letting them pull everywhere. The best method for these dogs is a jolly good sharp about turn, which is really the Koehler method. We do it on flat collars though and do use treats/toy etc when pup is in a good spot.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I agree. My dog heels much better when she's off lead than when she's on. Not sure why. Maybe it's because we practice close heel work with the lead off more often than with the lead on. So I've got some work to do on "generalising". When the lead is on, she feels free to run orbits around me, and I usually let her.

I don't see the difference between changing direction as the dog lunges after the cat and not changing direction, she's still going to be doing a somersault at the end of the lead. Changing direction all the time is something we practice - but off lead. There's no leash correction if she isn't paying attention.

[huski]

If you have ever done an about turn with a dog on leash Huski, that's Koehler concept and has nothing to do with mindfully administering big corrections at all. Put a leash on a puppy, walk around changing direction and the puppy gets excited, chases the handler around jumping up and thinks it's a game. Done correctly, the puppy has 100% focus upon what the handler is doing and where the handler is going which is the foundation of the Koehler leash training concept. Couple that up with positive reward to reinforce the focus, results in a very handler focused pup in a short period of time.

The dog at minimal distraction has learned that handler focus is a good thing, then as the dog is subject to higher levels of distraction is the point where handler focus is lost to the distraction and the dog will self correct when not following the handler's direction. Because the dog has been foundation trained to follow the handler, the correction causes the dog to re-think it's action and where it's focus needs to be which is on the handler and not the distraction. When the dog re-focuses, it's reinforced with reward.

Koehler obedience was all about handler focus using a leash as a training tool until proofed, then the leash was thrown away. You can't apply big leash corrections to a leashless dog :D Koehler ruined his brilliant foundation training concept with rediculous problem solving aversive measures and did himself and his entire systems and injustice IMHO and had he not projected such barbaric problem solving methods, today I am sure his leash training concepts would have been at legendary status where it deserves to be.

Where people mess it up, is not following the foundation training work and beginning at step 6 taking dogs into high distraction areas and applying severe corrections when they don't comply. Take the same dog back into a low distraction area which I have done many times and do some direction changes and the dog has no foundation handler focus whatsoever and is all over the place although it may walk on a loose leash quite ok. Complete the basic focus exercises, then return to areas of higher distraction and you have a completely different and much improved behaviour to work on from there.

Do I think this process would work on your dog Huski, of course, absolutely

Garry

Once again Garry, we weren't talking about training in low levels of distraction. The OP had trouble getting focus in high levels of distraction for which you recommended remedying by using leash corrections.

And if you re read my post above, I wasn't talking about using about turns, but the big Koehler style leash corrections that people like your friend malsrock recommend frequently.

I took my dog from a dog who could be corrected hard enough on a check chain that her front paws would lift off the ground and she still wouldn't realise and would have her neck out still trying to scent, who I couldn't get more than a couple of seconds of focus from even in low levels of distraction to a dog who will focus like this in high levels of distraction;

With no physical corrections. She's a pretty reliable dog too. Definitely not perfect work or particularly high drive but the fact remains I haven't worked her on anything other than a flat collar and haven't intentionally administered any leash corrections and she's still become switched on, drivey and reliable. It can be done without using physical corrections, it can even be done well.

I have no problem with physical corrections at all, but they don't need to be used in every situation on every dog. The fact is, that there are some situations where using physical corrections are detrimental to the dog, just as there are some situations where they can be a good choice. No one here is arguing that physical corrections should never be used. We are saying simply that building focus can be done without needing to use them.

[SpecTraining]

The dog doesn't have to be proofed to individual scenarios like cats dashing across the road as it has two choices, stay put and enjoy tranquility or chase the cat and reach the end of the leash with an uncomfortable outcome

I wouldn't describe being quiet and obedient while having to suppress an innate response through worry of retribution as tranquility, by any stretch of the imagination. Not from what I have observed/experienced anyway.

Nor do the top level Obedience competitors (speaking for WA)

And they are top level too, from what I have seen.

cheers

M-J

The dog doesn't supress anything in that situation, it simply makes a choice and chooses the most comfortable outcome which is to stay put and is more than happy to comply.

Yes it does prey drive is a fixed action pattern. You can't correct hard wiring out of a dog, only suppress it. I would say there would be a great deal of conflict happening.

I have heard that explanation given as an excuse for the inability of containing a prey driven animal by command which in reality is untrue. Prey driven animals will loop out often during attempts to suppress the behaviour in an untrained state, but a highly prey driven dog can be trained to sit quietly and mind it's business in the presence of prey quite easily.

Of course they can, I'm not disagreeing with you on that one, but I don't believe the dog is tranquil. Outwardly they may appear that way but they loop out because of fear. It's survival, no good concentrating on chasing the rabbit for dinner if a tiger is chasing you for his dinner. I don't believe either the handler or the dog can stop the initial response to the stimuli, only the behaviour. The dog knows if they display the behaviour their brain is telling them to display, they will receive a correction that at best will be unpleasant, pending on how high the dog's drive is.

You might be right m-j, but providing the dog behaves and obeys commands, I am happy with that behaviour. Prey drive isn't essentially a stressed component as would be defense drive, so I guess providing the anticipation to break the command is suppressed enough for the dog to behave quitely, the training result has been achieved.

[SpecTraining]

I train my own dogs to loose lead walk and heel whilst off lead. However when I get my pupils for training the pups are usually around 5 months and their owners have been walking around letting them pull everywhere. The best method for these dogs is a jolly good sharp about turn, which is really the Koehler method. We do it on flat collars though and do use treats/toy etc when pup is in a good spot.

Totally agree JulesP, it's exactly the tools (flat collar) and method I also find best with young dogs.

[SpecTraining]

OK sorry I should have said from what I have seen and can tell and from the research I have done there is a strong move towards training in drive within Schutzhund Having seen Koehler style training I don't feel it would produce the more flashy obedience I have seen in Schutzhund, and certainly the clubs I have been to use drive training and toy rewards..

And one thing I totally agree with is train with your end goal in mind.

Training in Schutzhund routines is done primarily in drive for the best results that is correct, the foundation training to pass the BH to qualify into the Schutzhund routines isn't. The dog has to first display pet like behaviour and obedience, it has to walk on a loose leash and not be distracted by people, other dogs, noise, cars, bicycles, joggers and behave it's self beyond the handlers view tied to a post on it's own and if the dog jumps around, misbehaves, barks etc it fails the test. E collars are often used now in the tie out training on some dogs who misbehave without the handler's presence. Many dogs are trained in Koehler style to achieve the obedience level and reliablity to pass the BH in the foundation training.

Edited October 5, 2010 by SpecTraining

[Kavik]

As I said I think it makes more sense to train with your end goal in mind, so I don't see why you would start by teaching pet style relaxed walking/heeling and then try to get a competition heel later - looks like more work and you would have to overcome some of your previous training. And from what I have seen in SchH training so far I have seen them start with drive training as a pup and start as they wish to continue. Like with competition obedience, many people train their dogs to a higher level than they are currently competing in.

[Staranais]

Wouldn't you teach a Sch dog both styles of heeling, though, if you wanted it to also be a pet?

I've not done Sch, but I've done a little comp ob, and my dogs learn both how to LLW and how to heel in drive competition style. I don't want them only knowing how to do a competition style heel, since I'm not going to walk them to the shops like that. If I did Sch, I'd still teach the dog to LLW as a different exercise.

From the BHs I've watched, most people do competition heeling in drive for the first part of the BH that is done on the field, and more casual LLW or heeling for the second bit on the road. I don't know what the rules require, though.