Erny Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) Update : The TLI test has come in and it shows normal pancreas function. That is now the second time I've had this tested, the first being about a year ago with the same answer. I spoke with our Vet and he's suggested that we give the thyroid medication a bit more time (we're still in the midst of adjusting and re-testing to stabilise to the correct dosage) before we go to the more invasive step of GA, endoscope and biopsy. I would love this whole thing to be thyroid related and for things to come good without further issue . In the meantime, this is something I forgot to mention/ask/discuss with the Vet. About 6 months ago when I had Mandela's bloods taken to double check thyroid, they were spun down to serum so that I could ship it to the USA for testing and analysis. The Vet made a comment at the time about how much fat Mandela had in the blood. Is there a possibility that this phenomenon could be linked with the phenomenon of him having a concerning amount of undigested fat showing in his stools? Edited January 19, 2011 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) In the meantime, this is something I forgot to mention/ask/discuss with the Vet. About 6 months ago when I had Mandela's bloods taken to double check thyroid, they were spun down to serum so that I could ship it to the USA for testing and analysis. The Vet made a comment at the time about how much fat Mandela had in the blood.Is there a possibility that this phenomenon could be linked with the phenomenon of him having a concerning amount of undigested fat showing in his stools? Off the top of my head, I'd say that that's a little confusing, since fat in the stools means he's not absorbing it from his diet into his body (hence, it shouldn't be turning up in his blood)? But I don't fully understand all the details of how the body metabolises fat either, so I guess it's possible that they could be caused by the same disease process. Perhaps there's something I'm not understanding here. Perhaps his low weight is leading his body to mobilise fat stores & they're turning up in the blood, or something? Colour me confused. Visible fat in the blood is pretty common after a meal, especially a fatty meal - it's not always pathological, in fact when you see it it's usually normal, especially if the animal wasn't fasted before the blood was taken. If he wasn't fasted for 12 hours before the blood was taken, that would be the simplest explanation, and probably the correct one. Fat in the blood is also a symptom of a whole range of conditions that derange fat metabolism - things like hypothyroidism, diabetes, nephrotic syndrome & pancreatitis. ETA, here's a list. :D http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetme...e/detail/456193 Edited January 19, 2011 by Staranais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) With the higher levels of fat in the blood, is that relative to the fat % in his food or it's abnormal and something like Thrive D might be able to assist with digestion? Mandela likes to keep you on your toes. If you could afford it, would it be worth sending bloods to Jean Dodds again? Edited January 19, 2011 by sas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) Thanks for that link Staranais. I had a read through of it before I had to leave to do a consult yesterday. I found it a bit difficult to understand all of it and will need to re-read it through once or even twice more, I think. I'm a bit confused right now and I'm also feeling a bit of a nuicance to my Vet (although that has never stopped me before, but I don't think they end up liking me much for it ). My current Vet, when I got off the phone from him yesterday (before your link to Hyperlipidemia) said that because the TLI test showed within the normal range, we basically can't do much else other than to do an endoscopy and biopsy. I think he feels this is more invasive than it needs to be at this point. So, when we moved onto the subject of Mandela's diet (he's been on Hills Science prescription Z/D for 6 weeks now) he said to start re-introducing him to his normal food, bit by bit and slowly and of course one food type at a time, and see how things go. I guess I'm a bit worried about doing that now due to being aware of fat content and so far the pointers (even though they are vague) seem to be about keeping to a low fat diet. I hate annoying our Vets and sometimes I do doubt myself in so much as wondering if I am overly obsessed with trying to find the actual cause for Mandela's woes rather than just accepting that he is that "type of dog" and running with it. :D . Hi Sas - he sure does (keep me on my toes)!! Lol. I don't know about the fat relativity to diet. I wouldn't have thought so as when he did have chicken, I got the skinless and in the latter months I also cooked it. But honestly, I'm only guessing. Also I think I fasted Mandela before the thyroid blood test - but I'm trying to rattle my brain on that one because I can't confidently recall. I'm pretty sure I asked Jean Dodds if it was necessary to do so and I thought she said no. But I just can't remember what I did or even whether Mandela ate his breakfast even if I did offer it to him. I need to back-track my diary to see if I wrote anything that would give me a clue. I'll be getting more bloods drawn to send to Jean Dodds again very soon, to check the thyroid again. We adjusted thyroid medication levels the last time and had to reduce them. So he's due for another check around now. Perhaps it is just a matter of concentrating on that and when we have got the levels to settle, giving everything some time. It was interesting to read that there is a connection between Hyperlipidemia and Thyroid (I think that's what I read). Edited January 20, 2011 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Is the z/d working for him, then? That's pretty cool if it is. If he wasn't fasted for the blood test where you saw fat, I'd say it was completely normal to see fat in it. If he was fasted for 12 hours & you saw fat in the blood, that would be abnormal. I reckon your vets are far more annoyed at the pet owners that don't really give a toss, than about ones like you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 If he wasn't fasted for the blood test where you saw fat, I'd say it was completely normal to see fat in it. If he was fasted for 12 hours & you saw fat in the blood, that would be abnormal.I reckon your vets are far more annoyed at the pet owners that don't really give a toss, than about ones like you. I have a feeling I fasted him on that blood test. But as his thyroid levels are about due for re-checking, I'll make a point this time of fasting him for the 12 hours and see whether the fat in his blood is still apparent. Is the z/d working for him, then? That's pretty cool if it is. The Z/D is working for him in so much that his poop has been a lot better. He does poop frequently though - but I'm happy that it is not the slops that he gave out for the preceding 7 or 8 months. His butt doesn't seem to annoy him half as much either, and the really really bad rotten gut smell farts don't occur any more (he used to let these go at least half a dozen to a dozen times a day). He's let a few go in the past few weeks, but they have only been here and there and the smell is not as bad. They coincided with a slight softening of the stool and the appearance of mucous in the stool, but that seems to have cleared up. So by comparison to the immediate past, yes .... I am reasonably pleased with where we are at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 20, 2011 Author Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) Up-date : Not going to say anything and not suggesting things are perfect, but gawd he looks good at the moment ;) :rofl: . And eating!! Back to the good ol' days of high food enthusiasm. This started when I began to introduce raw chicken and cooked chicken back into his diet. He still gets the Hills Science Z/D (his predominant diet) and I'm not overdoing it on the chicken (not every meal). He's had a couple of times of discomfort (a slightly sloppy poop; fussing at his butt; occasional slightly smelly fart) and this could be the chicken, but I'm still experimenting at the moment. Not sure if I'm doing things as properly as I should, but I am so enjoying my boy looking so well. And talk about energy!! . I forgot how he energetic he can actually be. Heightened energy levels really became noticeable when I started him on Antler Velvet tablets. But the pamphlets suggest that it can take 6 - 8 weeks of accumulation before benefits are seen, whereas I noticed the change inside 24 hours. So I'm not completely convinced that this increased energy boost can be attributed to that. He also seems to be more settled (although to anyone who didn't know him might not think that if their own chilled out dog is going to be used as a bench mark). I'm thinking this could perhaps be attributed to his thyroid medication really kicking in. Thyroid med check (bloods) early March. Struck delays and then our Vet is away, so we're a little late. Edited February 20, 2011 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Great to hear My Lewis cannot handle raw Chicken at all. He can handle small amounts if it is cooked but not huge amounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 That is very good news! I wonder if it was the diet (z/d plus chicken) or the thyroid meds that did it? Or perhaps a combination of both? Poor boy if he has both hypothyroidism and food intolerances - and lucky boy that he has such a persistent owner. I be he looks reasonably settled compared to my terror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 That is very good news! I wonder if it was the diet (z/d plus chicken) or the thyroid meds that did it? Or perhaps a combination of both? Poor boy if he has both hypothyroidism and food intolerances - and lucky boy that he has such a persistent owner. I don't know yet, Staranais. I have a feeling/suspicion that proteins are still part of the problematic equation but I am hoping that with the Z/D helping to give his digestive system a well needed respite that the fact he is medicated to balance his thyroid levels might kick in to help his body learn to cope (bit by bit) better with the proteins he tends to be offended by. I hope I'm making sense here. And I have no idea whether the body can possibly work the way I'm suggesting it might. But I'm fingers crossed. I bet he looks reasonably settled compared to my terror. Oooohh ..... I think we could run a book on that one, . A question though - I know Hills Science suggest about 6 weeks on the Z/D. I know someone here has said it won't matter if I even need to have him on this diet permanently. But is there a down side to this? What I mean is, could it in any way shorten his life span by being on the Z/D for really extended periods? The other question I had in my mind was, if Z/D is a food that has had its protein molecules made so small that the body doesn't recognise them as proteins, does this mean the dog's body doesn't digest the proteins as it should or would? IOW, how can it process and convert proteins if it doesn't recognise them as proteins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frufru Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Perhaps you need to fire off an email to Hills with your enqury, Erny, it seems a very reasonalbe question to want to know the answer to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 A question though - I know Hills Science suggest about 6 weeks on the Z/D. I know someone here has said it won't matter if I even need to have him on this diet permanently. But is there a down side to this? What I mean is, could it in any way shorten his life span by being on the Z/D for really extended periods? The other question I had in my mind was, if Z/D is a food that has had its protein molecules made so small that the body doesn't recognise them as proteins, does this mean the dog's body doesn't digest the proteins as it should or would? IOW, how can it process and convert proteins if it doesn't recognise them as proteins? Nah, the z/d is still protein, & the body still recognises it as such, it's just smaller chains of protein than usually comes in meat or other foodstuffs. The body would break down the vast majority of eaten food protein into pieces smaller than the z/d before it absorbed & used them, so it has no trouble recognising the z/d as protein. It's just that the z/d proteins are never large enough to bridge two particular receptors on the specific type of gut immune cells that usually mediate immune reactions to food molecules. If that makes sense? Pretty sure z/d is approved for adult maintenance, and haven't heard of any issues with having a dog on it permanently (except for cost!) If he's doing well on z/d and chicken, though, you could experiment with adding different foods in, one new food every few weeks, & see what effect they have? He might be able to tolerate quite a wide range of things, and if you introduce them slowly, you can work out which ones suit him and which don't. Although if you wanted to just enjoy your success and keep him on z/d and chicken, I can't imagine why that would do him any harm (except perhaps that he'd miss out on the dental benefits of bones - easily fixed if you brush his teeth instead). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) Thanks Staranais - yes, your explanation makes perfect sense, thank you. No - I don't want to stick with just chicken. In fact, even though he really started to look great and his appetite seemed to really improve when I did re-introduce the chicken (even his appetite for the Z/D increased, so it wasn't just about flavour), I did notice what I think could be warning signs (stools lending towards being soft; windy stomach), so I don't think chicken is 100% agreeable with him. What's difficult with Mandela is that he will change even when nothing else has changed (although the change this time around was pleasingly dramatic/readily noticeable). So sometimes I wonder if the change relates to what I'm doing or whether he would have changed anyway. Which is why I tend to repeat my experiments with one food type before I move to another. Although I broke my rule by introducing the Antler Velvet tablets to him whilst not completely convinced about what effect/affect the chicken was having on him. That could potentially prove to be a dumb move. Edited February 21, 2011 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) Perhaps you need to fire off an email to Hills with your enqury, Erny, it seems a very reasonalbe question to want to know the answer to. I'm glad you thought my question reasonable, FruFru. Sometimes I do wonder if even I will look back later and think "what a dumb one that was!!" lol, so I'm always pleased for the reassurance when I'm not throwing silly ones. Edited February 21, 2011 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 No - I don't want to stick with just chicken. In fact, even though he really started to look great and his appetite seemed to really improve when I did re-introduce the chicken (even his appetite for the Z/D increased, so it wasn't just about flavour), I did notice what I think could be warning signs (stools lending towards being soft; windy stomach), so I don't think chicken is 100% agreeable with him. Damn, that's a bummer, I hoped you'd found the entire solution. I wonder if cooked chicken is OK with him and raw not perhaps? Just a thought. Dogs can generally cope with the greeblies in raw chicken OK, but if he already has some gut damage it might sometimes be a little too much for his immune system to handle? Hmmm, Mr M certainly is an enigma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) Damn, that's a bummer, I hoped you'd found the entire solution. I wonder if cooked chicken is OK with him and raw not perhaps? Just a thought. Dogs can generally cope with the greeblies in raw chicken OK, but if he already has some gut damage it might sometimes be a little too much for his immune system to handle?Hmmm, Mr M certainly is an enigma. That theory has an element of potential to it - you might remember that for a long time (approximately 7 months) I was actually stuck on giving him ONLY cooked chicken, as he'd not even consider eating raw chicken - in fact, he'd not even consider eating raw anything. Back then though, the problem was sloppy poop and after 7 months of it (too long) that's when I went to the Z/D. So, unless it is that the Z/D has given his digestive system and tissue a chance to recuperate and that eating at least cooked chicken might now be ok, I'm not sure how he'd go on it if I fed it as the main stay of his diet. Yes, "enigma" is almost an understatement. But it has been such a lovely few months since he's been on Z/D not having to scrape poop from the lawn and then hose off the remnants; not having a home that carries the almost constant really foul aroma of his rotting mass farts. And I have to confess that I have enjoyed the convenience of the Z/D. I didn't mind putting in the time preparing his meals (cooking chicken daily or every second day; preparation of vegies) but when he'd then walk away from it and I'd be left to throw it out ..... that was disheartening. At the moment, this is easy : I offer him a can and some dry. If he finishes it, he gets some more. Far far less waste. As a consequence, the Z/D is possibly working out cheaper for me. My joy of all joys (to date) has been seeing his over the top enthusiasm for his food return (haven't seen that pretty much since he was about 7 months old) and also seeing him put on some additional condition and looking and acting overall "well". Edited February 21, 2011 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 This is the email response I received from Hills to my question about feeding Z/D for extended periods and about proteins being digested if they aren't recognised by the body. I emailed them before Staranais responded to my query here on DOL. It reflects what Staranais has said but thought I'd share it anyway. Thanks for your email regarding the use of z/d. It is a balanced long term maintenance diet for adult dogs so there is no problems with your dog being on it long term. With respect to the digestion of the protein. The antibodies that detect the protein sit on the surface of the gut and normally bind with the protein when they detect it. A small protein that is not detected by the antibodies still goes on to be digested is the normal way. Hydrolysed protein is very easy for the gut to digest so you do not need to worry that your dog will not be getting adequate nutrients. I hope you manage to get your dog right (we used to have ridgebacks for years - they are great dogs). Please let me know if I can be of further assistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj2251 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 This has been a most informative topic. My allergic boy has recently been put on Royal Canin hypoallergenic (which appears to be very similar to Hill). He has made what is nothing short of a miraculous recovery in the less then 2 weeks he has been on it. Granted he has also had to be on cortisone and antibiotics for this time, (but this is the 2nd time we've had to do this and the 1st time didn't render near the improvement he has shown this time). I've tapered off the cortisone to every 2nd day and we just finished the antibiotics, so will be interesting to see what happens next. My boy's problem was tummy and leg rash and temperamental pooping. Since eating nothing but RC hypo pooping much better - no more accidents in the middle of the night! And he is even growing hair on his tummy where he has never had hair before. I tried all the raw diet (got improvement, but short lived), VAN (improvement but sloppy poops), different kibbles, but I just think and cross my fingers and hope that this is the answer. If all I need to do is keep feeding him this kibble, I'm ok with that!!! I know he would dearly love a bone again, so hoping one day I can grant this wish, but if not, he won't die from not having bones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumtoshelley Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Hi how would i go about getting free samples of black hawk,artemis and Canidae. I wouldn't mind trying this food out of my female golden retriever Shelley. She can have problems with some foods eg sloopy poo. Right now She is getting feed bonnie adult complete. Also how long would a 15kg bag last been feed to a golden? I don't any stockest local to me who have these foods so i would have to get it online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 This is the email response I received from Hills to my question about feeding Z/D for extended periods and about proteins being digested if they aren't recognised by the body. I emailed them before Staranais responded to my query here on DOL.It reflects what Staranais has said but thought I'd share it anyway. Thanks for your email regarding the use of z/d. It is a balanced long term maintenance diet for adult dogs so there is no problems with your dog being on it long term. With respect to the digestion of the protein. The antibodies that detect the protein sit on the surface of the gut and normally bind with the protein when they detect it. A small protein that is not detected by the antibodies still goes on to be digested is the normal way. Hydrolysed protein is very easy for the gut to digest so you do not need to worry that your dog will not be getting adequate nutrients. I hope you manage to get your dog right (we used to have ridgebacks for years - they are great dogs). Please let me know if I can be of further assistance. I'm just glad I was telling you right, LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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