Dry Food That Does Not Contain Wheat, Corn Or Soy?

[Erny]

Erny I asked a friend today how much she feeds her Ridgebacks - 3 cups over 2 meals and that was Supercoat! They also get a bit of pet mince (couple of tablespoons) and left overs.

When I described Mandela's output she immediately said "too much protein".

Carrot is supposed to be good for IBS in people btw.

I get what people are saying - but what's the answer? I have a dog who, whilst I would not call him skeletal can certainly not afford to lose weight and could do with more on. I have a dog who will not eat much of any vegetable. I have a dog who will no longer eat raw meat, so bones too are out (even if I remove the most of the meat and fat from it).

Mandela is not a 'normal' dog. I know that if I had fed my previous girl (bhcs) even half of what Mandela eats, she'd have been a big fat round ball. So if we're just comparing one Ridgeback to another on the basis of feed quantity requirements, I don't think we'd be comparing apples with apples here.

But taking all of everything into account, what is your friend's answer for my troubles with Mandela?

Edited November 28, 2010 by Erny

[Erny]

Amber hasn't eaten her kibble for 2 mornings now Erny. :rolleyes:

Yeah - it's really frustrating, isn't it? I've had Mandela not eat anything (neither breakfast or dinner) for days in a row, in earlier times. That can be raw; VAN; BARF; kibble.

[JulesP]

She suggested cooked chicken mince and rice :rolleyes: She was quite keen on the cooked part.

I know I have less trouble with well cooked foods. A slightly not cooked mushy will have me rolling on the floor in ouchies.

Have you tried juicing up the veggies?

I am 'lucky' with Amber as most people think she is fat. My Ridgey friend was very surprised today when she felt her. Fairly sure Amber is just being fussy though as she doesn't have poo issues.

[JulesP]

Oh and I asked her because she is right into Ridgebacks not because she owns a couple :rolleyes:

[Erny]

She suggested cooked chicken mince and rice :rolleyes: She was quite keen on the cooked part.

I know I have less trouble with well cooked foods. A slightly not cooked mushy will have me rolling on the floor in ouchies.

Mandela has been fed cooked chicken for the past 8 months - because it got that it was all he would eat. He's had loose stools for 8 months (as well as some ups and downs with eating/not eating, as I've already described here). I tried adding cooked rice and it didn't do anything to change or improve the situation. I didn't keep up with the rice as I wasn't really certain that the starch factor would be helpful to whatever is going on. As it wasn't helping, I didn't see the point. He would eat 2kg of the cooked chicken a day and still not reach optimum weight. Did I think that much meat (cooked, no less and without any fibre or bone) was good as far as diets were concerned? Nup. But at least it got him eating.

Have you tried juicing up the veggies?

Yes. I juiced them and added the juice back to the pulp. That's how he was fed as a youngster as well, until he began to refuse to eat them. I also tried cooking the veggies to see if that would make a difference. If it did, it was only momentary, then things would go 'off' again. I added cooked pumpkin (only) to his food, as a way of at least providing some fibre. If anything, his poop became more sludgy than it already was. The question always lingering no matter what I do/have done is "would that have occurred if I hadn't have done what I did?" It is so hard to tell because there doesn't seem to be clear and steady patterns.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Erny

[noisymina]

Erny, there is clearly no easy/obvious answer to this one.

If he has blood tests that show no problems, the only avenue medically would be, I imagine, an endoscopy type procedure to actually look at his digestive system from start to end!

Jut as an aside - I do remember the Miniature Poodle I had (long time ago now) who was just the most finicky eater and always thin as a rake. At least with Poodles nobody notices. I did not pander to her after the first few attempts. In those days we had very few pet food options anyway, so my choices were limited. All I did do was shove some vitamins into her from time to time.

In spite of her eating like a mouse, she did live a very long, active and healthy life.

If tests don't show anything, maybe he is just one of those dogs that do that?

[shelby-001]

Staranais;

I'm am thinking intollerance as opposed to allergy and unfortunately when it's an intollerance there is no 'small enough' if you are sensitive enough. I do understand though how this theory works with allergies and normally quite successfully.

I'm not sure on the technichalities of the 93 foods assay, yes it is done on bloods but that's my limit on knowledge of the details of the test sorry. If I can find the information sheet I was given on it I will see if it tells me.

Noisy;

I'm in Nth QLD, but by all means I would be glad to pass on her details if you need to contact her for further info.

Erny;

It seems you have tried just about EVERYTHING.... I hope something comes to light for you soon.

[Erny]

Pooped again and all good :D.

I'm not really worried if he misses a meal or two. I'm not really worried if he stays on the lean side (although I'd like just a little stock on him).

Hopefully with the thyroid treatment and the Z/D I can have his skin not erupting like it has in the past and where his poop is not runny all the time, then I'll be reasonably satisfied, even though I'll probably always be on the look out for how to improve him even further .

Side notation : Notice that the poop looks as though it has little hairs throughout it. Is that normal for Z/D? Is that normal for poop?

Side notation : I have finally got his right ear flap to heal up. Yay!

Noisy : The Vet and I have a plan and if we think we still need to we will arrange for an endoscopy to tie in with another "little operation" that will be done at the same time, along with teeth cleaning. I too syringe vitamins down Mandela's throat if it seems to me he hasn't eaten for too long, or just to help provide something akin towards 'balance' when he was just on the cooked chicken. I named Mandela "Mandela" for longevity. So, if dogs do live up to their names, then yes, he may well be "just one of those dogs" . Although it'd be lovely if I could get him better enough for him to be a bit more normal - for his sake and also for it to not be costing as much to feed him every week of his life. I'll do what I need to of course and if that's my biggest grumble, then I am lucky. But I just want to know that I've done the best I can and everything I can, and in the right order .

Shelby : Thanks for the info. I'll speak to my Vet about it and if he isn't aware of similar blood tests being available for animals then I'll email Dr Jean Dodds in the USA. If it is not available here nor in the USA, then whilst it would have been something further to check and potentially very useful, there'd be no point, other than simply for the information sake. I'll let you know in the event I wouldn't mind following it up via your friend .

ETA: You know, he must be getting and looking better as it wasn't that long ago that I wouldn't contemplate GA for him. Not that he looked as though he was on death's door, but just that he didn't give me the impression of his system being strong enough for the GA to not set him back too far. I'm not looking forward to him having GA but I think he is essentially stronger to be able to deal with it better now than then. I think this in itself is a milestone.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Erny

[noisymina]

even though I'll probably always be on the look out for how to improve him even further

Yeh - I know what you mean.

[noisymina]

Noisy;

I'm in Nth QLD, but by all means I would be glad to pass on her details if you need to contact her for further info.

Thank you. I'm pretty sure I wil be able to track something down locally.

[Erny]

UPDATE

We're almost at the 6 week mark with the Hills Science Z/D diet. Poops have been very regularly good (firm; regular). There's been some where he has strained and has actually whimpered as it came through ( sorry if too much info), but other than that and a couple of times earlier in the piece a bit of constipation, it's been pretty good.

Mandela still goes on and off the food - sometimes eating very enthusiastically, sometimes not so enthusiastic and sometimes not at all until later. Occasionally not at all until the next or the next day. He doesn't eat the quota (eating about half to 2/3rds of suggested amount) suggested by the feeding guide and usually will only eat what he does if I have mixed a can of the Z/D with the kibble.

I haven't weighed him but going by looks his weight seems to have been reasonably constant (albeit that he is still and always lean). Of course losing in those times of non-eating and then re-gaining. But never does seem to manage to get past a certain point. It's just when he's beginning to look close to what I would regard as optimum, and then he'd go off the food for a bit. He has done the same with everything else I have ever fed him as well, with some of those food stuffs being food he now flat out refuses to eat.

I decided that it was about time I had his faeces checked for worm presence (some of you might remember that I've said I don't worm Mandela - except for the puppy worming regime, which I did follow). I didn't think there would be any but I thought it would be vigilant of me to check and make sure this was again covered. It's just a basic check so for this I just poked my head (and the poop bag with poop) into the local Vet where I've been purchasing his Z/D from, rather than travel to the Vet who is his current primary carer. Well, when I made my request I also mentioned about checking for Giardia. This led to it being a case of "but wait, there's more" and when the Vet mentioned a particular test that would check all of what I wanted as well as something about 'protein', I went and gave the nod for this more extensive test to be done.

I've just been informed the results via the phone today and it turns out that whilst there is no evidence of parasitic activity or presence, the laboratory noted a higher than preferred level of undigested fats.

The Vet said that if it wasn't for the fact that his poops have been good, he'd be suggesting EPI as a very possible diagnosis.

When Mandela was about 10 (or was it 15) months old, I'd already had bloods to check pancreatic enzyme levels. The results from that were "unremarkable". The Vet at the time (Dr Bruce Syme) also thought it was something else to do with the pancreas (I can't remember the techno name) but it involved a TLI (blood test). Both of us were surprised when this also came back as normal.

The Vet who rang me with the recent faecal results has suggested I weigh Mandela regularly and also watch his poops (the latter being pretty much a "my life" description already ). He said that if Mandela loses weight and if his poop goes sloppy, then EPI would be his diagnosis (or at least suggested diagnosis subject to further investigation I presume).

I will begin (again) to weigh him regularly but I'm not quite sure what to make of this because his weight always seems to slide up and then slide back down before it then slides back up again. And weight loss doesn't always marry with sloppy poo. In fact I've had times when he's almost looked his peak when his poop has been sloppy.

So I guess I have another piece of the puzzle to add to Mandela's health riddle, something to put in store and bear in mind as I continue to closely monitor him.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Erny

[piper]

Another piece fitted into the puzzle is a good thing - 1 less that needs to be worked out.

What is EPI? I know I have heard of it but can't recall what it actually is.

Good to know that he is free of all parasites etc. I must admit I am less than vigilant on giving my guys wormers etc as I don't like giving them unneccesary chemicals so only flea treat etc if there are signs of a problem and if I do have to do it I use as little as possible rather than the 1 dose treats everything spot ons.

[Erny]

Another piece fitted into the puzzle is a good thing - 1 less that needs to be worked out.

What is EPI? I know I have heard of it but can't recall what it actually is.

Good to know that he is free of all parasites etc. I must admit I am less than vigilant on giving my guys wormers etc as I don't like giving them unneccesary chemicals so only flea treat etc if there are signs of a problem and if I do have to do it I use as little as possible rather than the 1 dose treats everything spot ons.

I've had Mandela's faeces worm checked by a Vet about 2 or 3 times over a period of two years. I don't think I'd even do it quite that often if it wasn't for the fact of his health issues. But not once has the test shown positive. That's not to say it isn't ever possible, but it goes to show how many chemical tablets I would have administered at least 8 times by now (or 24 times, if I were using spot ons), and all for nothing.

"EPI is "Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency" which is the inability of the pancreas to manufacture and secrete the necessary enzymes required by the body to digest food and absorb nutrients......causing the body to starve no matter how much food the dog eats. " EPI. I admit that his symptoms sound similar and I don't wonder that EPI is one of the first things Vets consider when they hear what I describe. But it still is a bit like the square peg in the round hole (even though it almost fits). But perhaps that's because it is early stage EPI ?? I don't know yet, and I'm not sure if I'd be throwing good money after bad to have another TLI blood test done (it's been about a year since we ran it). I know that (although rarely) TLI tests can throw a false positive, but I've read nothing where it might throw a false negative.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Erny

[OSoSwift]

Erny, I am sure you have already spoken to a vet about it but have you/can you feed him is it Thrive D and see if he improves??? There used to be a tablet digestive enzyme replacer - enzyplex I think? but from what I remember they stopped making it of course!!!

If he improved then would that be confirmantion of EPI.

I may be talking rubbish as well :D

[Erny]

Erny, I am sure you have already spoken to a vet about it but have you/can you feed him is it Thrive D and see if he improves??? There used to be a tablet digestive enzyme replacer - enzyplex I think? but from what I remember they stopped making it of course!!!

If he improved then would that be confirmantion of EPI.

I may be talking rubbish as well

They still make Enzyplex and I have had him on this in the more recent past. It didn't help then, even though we trialled it for a good period of time. There were also some Chinese Herbal medicine things that I had him on for this as well. They didn't help either.

However, in the absence of some other bright idea, my thoughts are meandering on going back over things I've done and tried before because now the difference is that I've picked up the thyroid issue and he's medicated for that. Maybe with getting one thing out of the road things might show up differently or at least more clearly for the absence of confusion coming from more than one issue.

So, unless something crops up to convince me I'm wasting my money, I'm planning on getting another cTLI done. If anything is going to diagnose EPI one way or the other, quickly and more definitely, I would imagine it will be this. I intend to speak with Mandela's Vet about this once the New Year public holidays are out the way, assuming my Vet isn't on a break himself. I've had the laboratory faecal test results emailed through to me so I'll be able to send them on to him.

EPI certainly seems to fit Mandela's profile (except that he isn't so skinny you'd call him emaciated .... more like 'quite lean' - but then, perhaps it is early days ???? ) and we would have had that nailed at least a year ago if it wasn't for the fact that body function blood tests and the TLI showed "nothing remarkable".

But OSoSwift - I appreciate you thinking about this. It's a nice feeling to be able to share in a "bounce the ideas around" type way.

ETA: And you're not talking rubbish :D .

Edited January 1, 2011 by Erny

[OSoSwift]

The blood tests sound like the go

I do remember many moons ago a young Shepherd coming into work, around 18 months old. Was very lean, not skinny, had had some skin issues and the coat was not fantastic but not bad either. He had fairly copious yellowish looking poos that were soft but loosely formed. He had EPI and once on Enzyplex was a different dog.

I would never have called him really unwell looking, more just something wasn't right and he was eating quite an amount of food and was still lean.

Must be very frustrating for you. Especially when you feel like you have tried pretty much everything. I do agree however now that you have the thyroid under control it wouldn't hurt to "revisit" some of the previous senarios.

Goodluck.

[Erny]

Looking up results of one of Mandela's earlier test results from when he was about 11mo - this is from a summary report and I can't remember if it was the TLI test result or another faecel test I had done, although I think it was the TLI - it said :

undigested fat - negative

striated muscle negative

starch negative

gelatin digestion for trypsin - positive which indicates the presence trypsin

Not PEI

I have two questions for those here who might know - would appreciate your responses as it puzzles me a bit, although chances are it is a really simple answer and something I'll find myself embarressed for not having 'got it' in the first instance.

1. What do they mean by "striated muscle negative"? I know what striated muscle is, but what do they mean by it in terms of this test result? Are they saying that there was no undigested striated muscle (from what he would have eaten as part of his diet)? Or are they meaning something else?
   
2. Where they say "Not PEI" - I presume that means "Not Pancreatic Enzyme Insufficiency". I presume that's the same as "EPI" ??
   

Edited January 2, 2011 by Erny

[Staranais]

1. What do they mean by "striated muscle negative"? I know what striated muscle is, but what do they mean by it in terms of this test result? Are they saying that there was no undigested striated muscle (from what he would have eaten as part of his diet)? Or are they meaning something else?
   
2. Where they say "Not PEI" - I presume that means "Not Pancreatic Enzyme Insufficiency". I presume that's the same as "EPI" ??
   

1. Pretty sure you're right, i.e. they're saying they couldn't find any non-digested striated muscle from his diet in his poop = presumably he's digesting it.

2. Yup

Pretty sure the results are saying all results are normal, i.e. malabsorption doesn't seem to be present & the dog is producing the exocrine pancreatic enzyme trypsin.

It's not the same as a TLI. TLI is a blood test & these are all fecal tests. I believe TLI is generally considered to be more sensitive & more specific for EPI than the fecal tests are (i.e., fewer false negatives & false positives).

The first part of this free link may be of interest.

http://loudoun.nvcc.edu/vetonline/vet132/c...nal_testing.htm

Oh and this one:

http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=2rRNYfO...p;q&f=false

Edited January 2, 2011 by Staranais

[JulesP]

Fat malabsorption is a symptom of IBS in people Erny.

[Erny]

Fat malabsorption is a symptom of IBS in people Erny.

Or is IBS a symptom of fat malabsorption? A 'chicken or egg' question? . You could be right .... perhaps it is IBD first and then fat malabsorption. IBD was suggested earlier because he has tightly coiled intestinal tract (seen on xray) but back then didn't show evidence of undigested fat.

Staranais - thanks for your response.

Our Vet is back tomorrow afternoon so I'll hopefully be able to speak with him by phone and provided he agrees with my thoughts, will arrange a further cTLI.