Dry Food That Does Not Contain Wheat, Corn Or Soy?

[Erny]

And Kaisie has started to droool big time as soon a she sees the kibble cup come out.

Got to get it all outside very quickly before she drops drool all over the floors.

Yay! It is good to see drool when you know it's for the right and good reasons. Kind of like seeing a good poop after a period of not good poops.

Lordy . It's a bit rough when you start thinking you could write a book about poop.

[Staranais]

I hope the z/d works out for you. At least if he is doing OK on the z/d (and he's happy to eat it) you can gradually reintroduce foods to try to work out what he can & can't deal with. Fingers crossed he keeps eating it, and keeps doing well on it.

[Erny]

Thanks Star - it definitely is fingers crossed.

If it were to be IBD, is it the case that he will go 'off' this Z/D food and his poop will turn to mush again? Is that how IBD works? This is how I understand it but I'm unsure whether I am being a bit simplistic in my understanding of it, as this would just be too easy to work out IMO (and would put all the endoscopians out of business, lol).

Edited November 24, 2010 by Erny

[Staranais]

Thanks Star - it definitely is fingers crossed.

If it were to be IBD, is it the case that he will go 'off' this Z/D food and his poop will turn to mush again? Is that how IBD works? This is how I understand it but I'm unsure whether I am being a bit simplistic in my understanding of it, as this would just be too easy to work out IMO (and would put all the endoscopians out of business, lol).

From what I understand, they think that IBD is at least partially caused by the loss of oral tolerance to food proteins or gut flora (i.e., the immune system is reacting to substance/s in the gut that it normally wouldn't react to). So if it's IBD, I would guess he is likely to keep reacting to the problem substance his whole life - if you reintroduce whatever substance he's reacting to, he will have the clinical signs again. Not that I'm an expert, or anything.

They told us in class that about 30% of apparent ibd cases are successfully managed by diet alone, the rest need drugs (usually steroids) as well as the dietary therapy to control the symptoms. Hopefully if this is what Mr M has, diet alone will control it.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Staranais

[Erny]

I'm afraid I still don't quite understand - but I'm sure it is just me being a bit daft after a hot day. Or just me being a bit daft full stop, lol. I'll think on it and re-visit your post, Staranais, and see if I can work it out in my head. Right at the moment, from reading what you've written, it seems there isn't much distinction between "food intolerance" and "IBD".

Thanks, though - I'm sure the pennies will drop eventually .

[noisymina]

And Kaisie has started to droool big time as soon a she sees the kibble cup come out.

Got to get it all outside very quickly before she drops drool all over the floors.

Yay! It is good to see drool when you know it's for the right and good reasons. Kind of like seeing a good poop after a period of not good poops.

Lordy . It's a bit rough when you start thinking you could write a book about poop.

Well, since we have 5 acres for the dog to poop on, and Kaisie is fed mostly raw/premium, I seldom see a poop. ;)

But if a strange dog has got in and pooped. I know it! They don't get fed as well as mine.

When we got our first Dobe here, I experimented with different food quite a bit. And poop examination was critical. When I saw that what I'd fed her came out the other end almost totally unchanged, I figured it was not actually much good as she was getting nothing out of it.

So I went with the ones that produced the healthiest looking poops. That was before internet days. Seems I might have been onto something there.

[Staranais]

I'm afraid I still don't quite understand - but I'm sure it is just me being a bit daft after a hot day. Or just me being a bit daft full stop, lol. I'll think on it and re-visit your post, Staranais, and see if I can work it out in my head. Right at the moment, from reading what you've written, it seems there isn't much distinction between "food intolerance" and "IBD".

It is confusing (for me too!), and I think the syndromes may sometimes overlap somewhat.

For what it's worth, my big black textbook calls food intolerance a non immune mediated response to a dietary substance, food allergy an immune mediated response to a dietary allergen, and IBD is an idiopathic (= unknown cause) inflammation of the intestine that may involve an inappropriate immune reaction to a dietary substance or gut flora.

But if you can solve the issue with a diet change, I guess does it really matter which label you stick on it?

[Erny]

But if you can solve the issue with a diet change, I guess does it really matter which label you stick on it?

You're right - it is confusing!

And I agree - doesn't matter about the label. I was just a bit hopeful that, because *touch wood* he's doing ok on the Z/D (early days yet though) that it might have meant "Food Allergy" instead of "IBD".

OT - Remember you and I talking and me saying I thought IBD was different to IBS? I thought "IBS" was the description for "idiopathic irritable bowel" and "IBD" was the description for "actual bowel disease" (of some sort). .... No matter. I see in a few references I've read lately that the descriptions appear interchangeable. But I wish I could track back to the Vet who told me way back when that there was a difference between the two, so that I could have it explained over again. In the scheme of things, it all doesn't matter of course - but I admit I like to be able to put clear definitions on things especially so that I can understand 'health'.

[JulesP]

IBD (in humans) isn't just effected by food either. Stress can be a major factor. I wonder if it is the same for dogs. IBD can also swing both ways - constipation & diarrhea. The bowels are either constricting too much or they stop. Whilst in a too constricting phase anything that goes in your mouth can cause issues.

Food intolerance you are only going to react to that one thing and once it has passed through aren't going to have on going issues.

[Erny]

Mandela is a stressy type dog.

He tries to act Joe Cool though - just tends to fail miserably at it, lol.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Erny

[Erny]

Mandela ate all of his breakfast (Z/D kibble only - 3 cups) in one sitting this morning. In fact, he has been trying to wake me up a bit earlier these past couple of mornings, wanting a feed. He also ate 3 more cups of the Z/D kibble plus 1 Z/D Can for dinner tonight, in one sitting and with great gusto.

He is full of beans (not that he was exactly lethargic before, but I certainly recognise the difference).

I'd suggest he's put on a reasonable amount of weight in a relatively short period of time and his poop continues to be better.

And I haven't noticed him 'let wind' for the past few days. He's been so gassy for so long now, and what he let go stunk really bad. Seriously. It is so nice to not have that smell (gotta be better for him too, of course). The air around here smells so much healthier.

But I know that the Z/D is only for elimination purposes and that there is still a fair road to travel yet. I'm just enjoying this interlude so much :D. It's been a while. Forgive me for making the most of the opportunity of being able to post 'good' posts .

Edited November 25, 2010 by Erny

[Staranais]

Oooh that sounds promising, though I guess it's early days yet.

& I'm thinking, if the z/d diet trial works, and reintroducing other foods after the diet trial doesn't go so well for him, is there really any reason you can't keep him on z/d his entire life? Or is it really expensive? I'm pretty sure it's complete & balanced. Might not be many people's idea of an ideal diet, but feeding him only z/d is far better than giving him immunosuppressants such as steroids (which is the next port of call for IBD, I believe). Just a thought.

Our lecturer also suggests fish body oil can help IBD through reducing inflammation in the gut, so you might want to investigate adding some of that to see if he can tolerate it & if it helps (not until the elimination trial is finished, though).

Fingers crossed his poop stays nice.

[Erny]

& I'm thinking, if the z/d diet trial works, and reintroducing other foods after the diet trial doesn't go so well for him, is there really any reason you can't keep him on z/d his entire life? Or is it really expensive?

This thought crossed my mind, but I got the impression it is not a diet for long-term. Don't know why and might have the wrong impression. Didn't worry to pursue it at the time but will if that becomes necessary. And yes, it is expensive although I haven't tallied precisely the cost to me, but I think it proves to be less than what I've been forking out on a weekly basis for Mandela's food for the past year and a half or more. Previously I've been spending at least $105.00 per week (on just his chicken alone). Before that it was BARF and before that it was VAN pre-mix for allergy dogs. I wasn't sure how long I would be able to keep that up for (although I'm sure I'd make something manage if push came to shove ) and there is no way I want to add that up and average it out on the basis of his estimated life span!! . I think that the Z/D might come in at about $75 - $80 per week. So it is better than previous, the bonus being that he is doing better on it (fingers crossed this good fortune lasts). It is really quite depressing to spend all the money I'd spend only to see your dog not doing any or getting any better on it. So from that aspect, I'm quite delighted at the moment and happy to be able to report that I am.

Edited November 26, 2010 by Erny

[Erny]

Mandela was crazy with energy last night. Really puppy on the go type behaviour. He was also fairly energetic VERY early this morning, but I convinced him to sleep a little longer. But when we got up and I fed him, he turned away from his kibble Z/D.

He went to the toilet and his poop was sludgy.

He's been off all day and wouldn't touch the kibble Z/D when I offered it to him again during the day.

No one else would be able to tell, but to me it was obvious that he was not feeling well. He ran around a bit at my folks, but he tired quickly. His enthusiasm for his ball was even way down by comparison to normal.

He did at least eat his night time meal which is the one I mix the Z/D can with the Z/D kibble so at least he got to eat half his daily rations. And he was enthusiastic for it. And he did lick the bowl clean.

I enjoyed the last few posts where I could talk about him doing so well, but knew it was too early to tell. Just always disappointing when this happens.

I won't post on a daily basis about his poops now, as these are likely to go up and down, as will his eating patterns, or just down. But I'll let you know the upshot after I've given this food more time.

<sigh> It always seems to happen when he's getting to the stage that I think I might need to back off the food quantity a little, because he's getting close to looking ideal weight.

Still - good while it lasted .

[noisymina]

Erny - it seems like a really difficult problem.

I'm a rank amatuer and hed very few dogs to care for in relation to you and others here - so have not come across anything quite like it.

I know Mandela is a giant breed- but I can't remember reading how much he does weigh?

[Erny]

Erny - it seems like a really difficult problem.

I'm a rank amatuer and hed very few dogs to care for in relation to you and others here - so have not come across anything quite like it.

I know Mandela is a giant breed- but I can't remember reading how much he does weigh?

Last weigh in he was 36kg. That was a week ago just before I started him on the Hills Z/D. I would guess that he might be about 36.5 or 36.7 now (maybe - he surprised me he was only 36kg at the last weigh in), but he'll lose that quickly unless things turn around and come 'right' very quickly.

The most he's been is about 38 or 38.5 (from memory) and he looked really great for the weight.

ETA: I would class him as "large breed" rather than "giant breed", but then I'm used to big/tall dogs.

Edited November 27, 2010 by Erny

[noisymina]

Oh - ok.

So he's not much bigger than Kaisie who weighs in at around 31-32 kg She as 32.7 last time, but that was bit too heavy for her.

It seems to me that 6 cups of food (dry or otherwise) is a lot.

To me, 3 cups at one sitting seems like a lot.

At 300 t0 350g meaty bones at night, plus a bit of barf (half a small patty) + yogurt or an egg for breakfast, she keeps her weight. If she is a bit light, I add 1/4 cup dry in the mornings for a while.

So, to work a rough equivalent, 3 cups of food would see her gain weight. She just would not eat more - as soon as she reaches about 32 kgs or a bit more she will refuse food, bury her bones etc. She just won't eat.

Just a rough comparison.

Is it possible the quantity of food is hard for his system to manage?

[Erny]

So he's not much bigger than Kaisie who weighs in at around 31-32 kg She as 32.7 last time, but that was bit too heavy for her. It seems to me that 6 cups of food (dry or otherwise) is a lot. To me, 3 cups at one sitting seems like a lot. At 300 t0 350g meaty bones at night, plus a bit of barf (half a small patty) + yogurt or an egg for breakfast, she keeps her weight. If she is a bit light, I add 1/4 cup dry in the mornings for a while. So, to work a rough equivalent, 3 cups of food would see her gain weight. She just would not eat more - as soon as she reaches about 32 kgs or a bit more she will refuse food, bury her bones etc. She just won't eat.

Just a rough comparison.

Is it possible the quantity of food is hard for his system to manage?

I don't think that comparing weight is the way to go, given my boy is a bit under, and is quite narrow for his height. My previous girl "Kal" (bhcs) was considerably smaller than Mandela. She was optimal weight at 31kg. If she reached 33kg she was getting too fat.

For the last 8 months has been on 2kg of cooked chicken per day. He's had his ups and downs on it, but it has at least sustained him. That aside, he needs weight. The guide says "80lb = 5.66 to 7.75 cups". He's 36kg and that's not his optimal weight, so I should actually be feeding him more than what I am. I aim for around what would be the equivalent of 7 cups of Z/D kibble.

He was a bit lethargic today. And IMO, the way he holds himself, doesn't look completely comfortable. We took it easy. But this morning he ate 2 x cups of the Z/D kibble. Then, this afternoon, I decided to do his nails (Dremel). I normally feed him treats during the process (I sit on his mat with him). Because I can't venture outside of the Z/D diet, I used the kibble as his treats - hand fed, 1 by 1 as we went. He ate them readily enough, and then began looking for them. When I was up to his last foot, I put the bowl in front of him and he ate what was left of the 2 x cups I'd put in there, while I finished off his back foot.

He was the one who later 'reminded' me it was time for his tea. This comprised of 2 x cups of Z/D kibble and 1 x can of Z/D. He ate the lot straight down.

He hasn't pooped today, so something is still going on. He might have, perhaps later in the day, but the rain we've had here wouldn't have helped to have encouraged him. He also let go a smelly fart this morning. We've been free of those for the past few days, which has been a really pleasant experience. But his farts were frequent beforehand, so we're not quite back where we used to be, yet. I wouldn't have thought that quantity would cause the things that are happening, but then I'm a bit out of theories.

One thing, although I really didn't think this would be the culprit (this time around) was that a couple of days ago I started using cut up carrot pieces as his treats, seeing as I'm not allowed to use any other meat protein source (the vet said vegies would be ok if I wanted to feed him those). I've withheld the carrot treats for the time being. What makes things difficult is that he can be so up and down that when I experiment with anything I never know whether the change is due to what I've done or whether it was going to happen anyway.

Edited November 27, 2010 by Erny

[Staranais]

One thing, although I really didn't think this would be the culprit (this time around) was that a couple of days ago I started using cut up carrot pieces as his treats, seeing as I'm not allowed to use any other meat protein source (the vet said vegies would be ok if I wanted to feed him those). I've withheld the carrot treats for the time being. What makes things difficult is that he can be so up and down that when I experiment with anything I never know whether the change is due to what I've done or whether it was going to happen anyway.

I wouldn't want to second guess your vet, but I have heard of dogs being allergic or intolerant to a lot of random things, including veges.

It's a bummer he's not as good as you hoped on the z/d.

[Sheridan]

& I'm thinking, if the z/d diet trial works, and reintroducing other foods after the diet trial doesn't go so well for him, is there really any reason you can't keep him on z/d his entire life? Or is it really expensive?

This thought crossed my mind, but I got the impression it is not a diet for long-term. Don't know why and might have the wrong impression. Didn't worry to pursue it at the time but will if that becomes necessary. And yes, it is expensive although I haven't tallied precisely the cost to me, but I think it proves to be less than what I've been forking out on a weekly basis for Mandela's food for the past year and a half or more. Previously I've been spending at least $105.00 per week (on just his chicken alone). Before that it was BARF and before that it was VAN pre-mix for allergy dogs. I wasn't sure how long I would be able to keep that up for (although I'm sure I'd make something manage if push came to shove ) and there is no way I want to add that up and average it out on the basis of his estimated life span!! . I think that the Z/D might come in at about $75 - $80 per week. So it is better than previous, the bonus being that he is doing better on it (fingers crossed this good fortune lasts). It is really quite depressing to spend all the money I'd spend only to see your dog not doing any or getting any better on it. So from that aspect, I'm quite delighted at the moment and happy to be able to report that I am.

Erny, wheatens with PLN are on Z/D Ultra for the rest of their lives. It's the recommended food as the protein is hydrolised. It may not be considered a long-term food but it can be.