Dry Food That Does Not Contain Wheat, Corn Or Soy?

[Erny]

Thanks Staranais and Sheridan, for the info.

I'll hold back on anything else other than Z/D for the time being and see how things go. Will probably have to experiment several times (with the same 'outside' food ingredient) before I'd know if that's what might be causing the problem or not, before I'd know.

Also good to know that I could stick with Z/D if it turns out that this is the food of choice for him. Would have loved for him to have been able to eat bones though. His teeth are already a bit on the skanky side and he's only 2.5yo. But that's not the end of the world. I'll be getting them cleaned soon - just would have preferred the more natural method.

[Staranais]

Will he let you brush them? I do Fledgie's teeth twice a week with a child's toothbrush (even though she eats bones too - I'm bit of a clean teeth nazi) and she's quite used to it. I just do the outside surfaces as that's where most tartar accumulates. She doesn't like the brushing, but is pretty keen on the chicken flavoured toothpaste.

Sorry, I'm hogging your thread!

[Erny]

Will he let you brush them? ... chicken flavoured toothpaste.

Sorry, I'm hogging your thread!

Yes - I can do that with him. I use a finger toothbrush. Really didn't think it was making much of a difference for the effort, but it is something I should at least do in the absence of anything else. Do you think the doggy toothpaste helps with the removing of the tartar? I would love to have his once beautiful young white teeth back.

There is no way you are hogging this thread. I'm grateful for the input. Even just to be able to share what's going on with Mandela with others, as it gets frustrating. So thank you .

[Staranais]

Yes - I can do that with him. I use a finger toothbrush. Really didn't think it was making much of a difference for the effort, but it is something I should at least do in the absence of anything else. Do you think the doggy toothpaste helps with the removing of the tartar? I would love to have his once beautiful young white teeth back.

From what they tell us, brushing only removes plaque. Once the plaque has turned into tartar then brushing won't remove that. So brushing is really effective at keeping teeth clean if you do it at least every 48 - 72 hours - the aim being to remove the plaque before it can turn into tartar.

The toothpaste apparently makes it only a few % more effective, it's the mechanical action of the brushing that does the trick, so I wouldn't bother with the toothpaste (except that Fledge thinks it's om nom, so I buy it for her).

[noisymina]

The way I understand it, specially with humans and lactase insufficiency, the fact that the digestive system is not digesting, in that case, the lactose, it begins to ferment in the gut, thus producing gases etc.

Most humans and even my dog benefits from some acidophilus - thus Kaisie is not nealy as smelly now that I've been a bit conscientious with her yoghurt most days.

I was just asking about quantity because, on another thread, someone said that they think that packet directions often over state the amount of dry that needs to be fed. I've never personally fed a large proportion of dry, so can't say either way from personal experience.

But going on the small amount I use to add weight to Kaisie, I'm thinking there may be some truth in that theory.

[Erny]

From what they tell us, brushing only removes plaque. Once the plaque has turned into tartar then brushing won't remove that.

Thanks for that info.

What's the difference between plaque and tartar? I mean, how can I tell the difference?

Lol .... I can just imagine Fledge Om Nomming .

[shelby-001]

I've been following this thread and have just had a thought..........

This may sound really strange but is it possible it is a protein intollerance? There are stranger things around but was just a thought after reading how much trouble you've had. It just seems everything you have tried still contains protein??? Just a thought..........

Yakult is a more 'concentrated' probiotic if you want more bang for you mouthful so to speak!

[Erny]

Noisy : I agree that dry food puts on weight. I see it in many of the other dogs I come across - many of them over weight. I agree too that in Mandela's case, something isn't digesting properly. His rotten chicken smelly farts certainly made that quite clear .

I tried the addition of pro-biotics. Different types. Chinese. Some others that our Naturopath put us onto. I'm not adding anything at the moment, simply because I don't want to add beyond the Z/D diet, at least not without Veterinary direction. I might be wrong, but if I start adding this or that, I might not know what's doing what. It's only been a week so I'll give it a bit longer to sort itself out, and at least get past the fact that I fed a few carrot pieces as treats.

But you could be right. Maybe with this diet, all he might need is some Pro-biotics if things don't pick up and go well with it as is. Thanks .

[Staranais]

So, plaque is basically the bacteria and food gunk left on your teeth after eating (like when you've not brushed your teeth for a few days and they start to feel sort of fuzzy - that's plaque). It's transparent & hard to see, and it scrapes off really easily.

If you leave plaque on the teeth, it attracts minerals from saliva, and within a few days the mineral & plaque together form a sort of hard, solid, yellowy-brown crust on the teeth. That's tartar. If you leave tartar on the teeth, it causes gum irritation & periodontal disease. Tartar is way harder to remove than plaque is, brushing won't do it, and eating bones doesn't always help either.

So, if he's got tartar, IMO it's best to get a good teeth clean under GA (the GA is so they can get right up under the gumline, which is where bacteria erode the gum away & enter the blood stream), then do your best to prevent the tartar returning by brushing off the plaque regularly.

Hope that makes sense.

[shelby-001]

Good luck, I hope for your sake it's not a protein intollerance, that could make life really difficult.

Also I don't know if this is possible with dogs, but with humans, there is a blood test known as a 93 Foods Assay, which basically tests to see if you are intollerant to 93 different food sources. It is often used to diagnose lactose/gluten/soy/egg intollerances etc.

Being gluten intollerant myself I so understand the pain and discomfort of digestion issues..... Hugs to Mandela!

[noisymina]

Good luck, I hope for your sake it's not a protein intollerance, that could make life really difficult.

Also I don't know if this is possible with dogs, but with humans, there is a blood test known as a 93 Foods Assay, which basically tests to see if you are intollerant to 93 different food sources. It is often used to diagnose lactose/gluten/soy/egg intollerances etc.

Being gluten intollerant myself I so understand the pain and discomfort of digestion issues..... Hugs to Mandela!

Sorry Erny -

I just have to ask Shelby ...how long has that test been around? It sounds awesome!

[Erny]

Thanks Staranais.. Yes - you've made sense. I'll get cracking on the brushing, at least to stop more plaque forming. I'll be getting his teeth done under GA soon.

Shelby-001 - thanks for your post. I'm concerned about it being a protein intolerance too. When he was a pup I worked on getting him used to a variety of things, including veggies, as my previous girl Kal (bhcs) was not only a fussy eater but also developed/had a sensitive stomach and this made her food requirements quite restrictive too. When my current boy came along I had grand plans of being able to feed him almost everything and anything. Ha!!

I will check up about this "93 Foods Assay" blood test. Never heard of it, but very interested in it. Save a lot of mucking around and potentially otherwise more invasive tests. Thanks for the tip and I shall pass on your hug .

Noisy - don't apologise. As you see, I'm interested in the same .

I've noticed Mandela's coat has improved with the Z/D diet. For the most part his coat has been any where from pretty good to really good. But I'd get an inkling when things were on the down hill slide when he'd start scurfing up - even if it was more than usual. But tonight I notice that his skin seems really clean and free of scurf. That's a good sign, but of course I'm making sure that a part of me is touching wood when I say that.

Edited November 27, 2010 by Erny

[Staff'n'Toller]

I've been following this thread and have just had a thought..........

This may sound really strange but is it possible it is a protein intollerance? There are stranger things around but was just a thought after reading how much trouble you've had. It just seems everything you have tried still contains protein??? Just a thought..........

Yakult is a more 'concentrated' probiotic if you want more bang for you mouthful so to speak!

Z/d diet has only hydrolysed proteins- meaning they are so small in molecular weight that they should pass through the body undetected. Should being the operative word there...

[Erny]

Should being the operative word there...

I think my boy broke the mould when it comes to matters of "should"

But perhaps it is possible that the carrot pieces I was using as treats could have upset the apple cart. I'll hold on to that thought as I go to bed, at least .

Another day tomorrow. Another poop (if he will - he didn't today). Hopefully it will be a good one .

[shelby-001]

Noisymama;

I'm not sure exactly but I have been aware of it myself for over 5 years. My naturopath uses it, the blood is obviously taken at a path lab and the results are gernerally sent through to GP and the Naturopth. It costs about $500 and there is no rebate through pvt health funds or medicare, but when you have a food problem it's well worth it.

I have friends that have has their kids tested with things ranging from unexplained coughs to bad behaviour being improved once an intollerance is identified and removed from the diet. One lil fella couldn't eat: gluten, soy, egg and lactose. Once mum removed them from his diet he was a completely different kid, behaviourally and physically! He was the one with the cough.

SnT;

I know it is a 'should' but normally when there is an intollerance, there is NO disguising the source or making it small enough it's not an issue. My mum is a full blown ceoliac from eating gluten for years whilst being intollerant and unaware. She is now so severe that if she eats PLAIN potato chips that got bagged straight after a flavoured packet she gets sick, VERY SEVERE. Myself on the other hand, as I was aware QUITE YOUNG of the possibility of intollerance (coz of mum) I can tollerate VERY SMALL amounts providing I keep it out of my diet 98% of the time. If Mandela's intollerance is bad enough it won't matter whether it's hydrolized or not. However for probably 95% of cases the z/d would do the trick perfectly seeing as though it is hydrolized proteins. Oh to be in the norm!

Erny;

Like I said I have no idea if it's even possible for dogs, but with technology and scientific advancement these days I'd be saying it's well worth asking the question. In humans you can go even further and have a HAIR SENSITIVITY test done. They take strands of hair and test some 300 odd 'supermarket' products against it for sensitivity/intollerance. My issue with this test is it doesn't identify in the 'food source' what it is you are intollerant to. Ie: my naturopath can eat organic brocolli but not supermarket purchases brocolli. Unfortunately the test doesn't tell her what in the supermarket brocolli is the problem. In the right circumstances she will use the hair and blood assay in conjunction often providing a much clearer picture when the results are collated and compared. As for Mandela I think he really does throw 'should' out the window poor fella!!

[Staranais]

A bit technical, sorry, but I thought it might interest:

The z/d (and other hydrolysate diets) are supposed to be good for allergies since the protein in it is broken up so small (under 10 kilodaltons) that it can't simultaneously bind to two antibody receptors on the body's mast cells. An allergic response to a food protein happens when the protein binds two mast cell antibody receptors simultaneously, this is what causes the cell to activate and start releasing inflammatory compounds like histamine, heparin etc. So the theory is, if the protein is really small, it can't reach two receptors simultaneously, so it can't activate the mast cells = no inflammation.

The only problems with this are that 1) there's always a tiny proportion of protein left in the food that's larger than 10kd, just because the manufacturing process isn't perfect, so very sensitive dogs may still react to the protein in hydrolysate diets, and 2) the diet still contains intact carbohydrates and fats that some dogs may react to, and 3) it's possible that not all dietary immune issues are entirely mediated by mast cells.

So, hydrolysates aren't perfect by a long shot, but they're the best hypoallergenic diet we've got at the moment.

I don't know anything about the 93 food test at all, is it an ELISA test run on a blood sample?

Edited November 27, 2010 by Staranais

[noisymina]

Thank you shelby. I'm so going to folow that up.

If I draw a blank, you might get a PM asking for your naturopath's details. If that is OK?

I agree - when one is flapping around without good leads it is frustrating AND expensive.

I hope they have a doggie equivalent for Mandela!

[JulesP]

Erny I asked a friend today how much she feeds her Ridgebacks - 3 cups over 2 meals and that was Supercoat! They also get a bit of pet mince (couple of tablespoons) and left overs.

When I described Mandela's output she immediately said "too much protein".

Carrot is supposed to be good for IBS in people btw.

[Erny]

Interesting info and contributions - thank you. It has really given food for thought (pardon the pun) and a deeper level of understanding. I loved your explanation too, Staranais. It was really clear and therefore, quite helpful in that I now better understand things. SnT has also helped as has every one who adds their thoughts/comments here. Bit by bit the info adds up and slowly sinks in until a penny drops .

I wasn't going to post about Mandela's poop but seeing as I'm here right now, thought I'd add that he did a really good one late last night, just before we packed it in and went to bed. Hasn't eaten nor is he interested in his Z/D kibble breakfast though.

[JulesP]

Amber hasn't eaten her kibble for 2 mornings now Erny.