Breeders Permit Meeting

[shortstep]

Thanks everyone for the comments about the meeting.

But can we back up a bit. Sorry to ask so many questions but I need to catch up.

What is the definition of a breeder (who must get a permit)?

Can anyone who wants to be a breeder get a permit as a breeder? No restrictions or qualifications needed?

Do they inspect your property as part of getting and keeping a permit to be a breeder?

Can you have intact dogs and not be a breeder?

When you say that DQ breeders have made a special deal, what is different about their rules that does not apply to breeders without a DQ prefix?

You say there are no restrictions on the number of dogs breeders can have, but then say breeders have to gain approval for the number of dogs you have. How is it decided if you qualify to have the number of dogs you already have or want to have? Space, breed, kennel, neighbors or??

Does this apply to working farm dogs?

[MissMonaro]

A breeder is someone who is either a registered breeder with Dogs Qld or in the case of cats - some sort of cat society (doesnt apply to me so didnt listen) and I assume with cows etc the same sort of thing.

I beleive that just "anyone" can't get a breeders permit - you must be a registered breeder. How else will we ever stop the backyarders or people that breed fido to suzy cos they want pups, if they let just anyone get a permit?

Yes they inspect your property and there are a number of rules etc in regards to waste disposal, storage of food, fencing, and care of the animals.

You can still have entire dogs and not have a breeders permit. If you are a member of Dogs Qld ie. ppl that show and don't breed, you pay $60 a year dog rego for an entire dog. If you are not a member, but wish to have an entire dog on your property, then your dog rego will be $80 a year.

There are restrictions on the number of dogs you can have. Obviously if you are on a house block they probably wouldnt give you a permit for 10 large dogs. They take in to consideration what the council deems is suitable for your block, your situation, if there have been any complaints from neighbours etc etc.

I beleive working farm dogs - entire or desexed would still have to be registered with the council. Entire is $80 and desexed is $25 I think.

Hope that helps.

[shortstep]

A breeder is someone who is either a registered breeder with Dogs Qld or in the case of cats - some sort of cat society (doesnt apply to me so didnt listen) and I assume with cows etc the same sort of thing.

I beleive that just "anyone" can't get a breeders permit - you must be a registered breeder. How else will we ever stop the backyarders or people that breed fido to suzy cos they want pups, if they let just anyone get a permit?

Thanks, I think I understand, but I just want to repeated back to make sure I have it correct.

Ok so it is no longer legal to breed working sheepdogs or kelpies unless they are in the the kennel club in this shire (which none are)?

Only desexed dogs must be ANKC registered? If you have a line of sheepdogs that your family has bred and used on the land since the mid 1800, you would have to have them all desexed, is that correct?

So have I got it right, in a nut shelled they have made the only legal dogs to breed in this shire kennel club registered dogs?

And is this the basic plan for the whole state?

Is this also the case for the Gold coast plan?

[ellz]

I think I need either a holiday or an eye test (maybe both).....I read the title of this thread as "Breeders Permit Mating" and my first thought was...yeah, that's why they're breeders! :p

Sorry.....don't mean to make light of a serious subject, just thought you'd get a giggle out of my stupidity.

[happyfoot]

A breeder is someone who is either a registered breeder with Dogs Qld or in the case of cats - some sort of cat society (doesnt apply to me so didnt listen) and I assume with cows etc the same sort of thing.

I beleive that just "anyone" can't get a breeders permit - you must be a registered breeder. How else will we ever stop the backyarders or people that breed fido to suzy cos they want pups, if they let just anyone get a permit?

Thanks, I think I understand, but I just want to repeated back to make sure I have it correct.

Ok so it is no longer legal to breed working sheepdogs or kelpies unless they are in the the kennel club in this shire (which none are)?

Only desexed dogs must be ANKC registered? If you have a line of sheepdogs that your family has bred and used on the land since the mid 1800, you would have to have them all desexed, is that correct?

So have I got it right, in a nut shelled they have made the only legal dogs to breed in this shire kennel club registered dogs?

And is this the basic plan for the whole state?

Is this also the case for the Gold coast plan?

What I took from the whole meeting is that the council are giving Dogs QLD members the opportunity to prove to them that we (registered breeders) are better then the puppyfarmers/backyarders and by doing so be HONEST have ALL our dogs on our property registered with the council, they also very clearly stated in the meeting that the dogs did not have to a compound as such they did not care if they lived in your house and slept on your bed. I believe for the Moreton Bay residets this is a big relief for us all, I am currently one of those 40 people that have a permit with all my dogs registered at my property, the council were very helpful, I was able to show that all my dogs were cared for well with the right requirements that is really COMMON SENSE with dog ownership.

I think DQ and Mark have done a wonderful job coming to this agreement (well done to them :p ) but now it is up to us BREEDERS to show them that we are the responsible breeders that we all say we are and apply for the permits as this may help sort out the real Breeders to the puppyfarmers/backyarders that we all hate so much.

[shortstep]

What I took from the whole meeting is that the council are giving Dogs QLD members the opportunity to prove to them that we (registered breeders) are better then the puppyfarmers/backyarders and by doing so be HONEST have ALL our dogs on our property registered with the council, they also very clearly stated in the meeting that the dogs did not have to a compound as such they did not care if they lived in your house and slept on your bed. I believe for the Moreton Bay residets this is a big relief for us all, I am currently one of those 40 people that have a permit with all my dogs registered at my property, the council were very helpful, I was able to show that all my dogs were cared for well with the right requirements that is really COMMON SENSE with dog ownership.

I think DQ and Mark have done a wonderful job coming to this agreement (well done to them :p ) but now it is up to us BREEDERS to show them that we are the responsible breeders that we all say we are and apply for the permits as this may help sort out the real Breeders to the puppyfarmers/backyarders that we all hate so much.

Thats nice.

So I ask again are working sheepdogs or kelpies that are not registered in the kennel club allowed to be bred in this shire?

MM say no, only kennel club dogs and breeders can breed in this shire,

Do you agree and also say that only kennel club dogs and breeders can be bred legally in this shire?

Edited October 1, 2010 by shortstep

[happyfoot]

What I took from the whole meeting is that the council are giving Dogs QLD members the opportunity to prove to them that we (registered breeders) are better then the puppyfarmers/backyarders and by doing so be HONEST have ALL our dogs on our property registered with the council, they also very clearly stated in the meeting that the dogs did not have to a compound as such they did not care if they lived in your house and slept on your bed. I believe for the Moreton Bay residets this is a big relief for us all, I am currently one of those 40 people that have a permit with all my dogs registered at my property, the council were very helpful, I was able to show that all my dogs were cared for well with the right requirements that is really COMMON SENSE with dog ownership.

I think DQ and Mark have done a wonderful job coming to this agreement (well done to them :p ) but now it is up to us BREEDERS to show them that we are the responsible breeders that we all say we are and apply for the permits as this may help sort out the real Breeders to the puppyfarmers/backyarders that we all hate so much.

Thats nice.

So I ask again are working sheepdogs or kelpies that are not registered in the kennel club allowed to be bred in this shire?

MM say no, only kennel club dogs and breeders can be breed in this shire,

Do you agree and also say that only kennel club dogs and breeders can be bred legally in this shire?

Sorry not sure about that I am sure if you rang moreton bay and spoke to Louise or Anne Maree or even Gary Bradley they would be able to tell you for sure. I would not ask the receptionist that answer I would ask to speak to one of them as they seem to be the ones with all the CORRECT answers.

Sorry I can't help I know they touched on this but did not really listen as it did not effect me.

[Steve]

What I took from the whole meeting is that the council are giving Dogs QLD members the opportunity to prove to them that we (registered breeders) are better then the puppyfarmers/backyarders and by doing so be HONEST have ALL our dogs on our property registered with the council, they also very clearly stated in the meeting that the dogs did not have to a compound as such they did not care if they lived in your house and slept on your bed. I believe for the Moreton Bay residets this is a big relief for us all, I am currently one of those 40 people that have a permit with all my dogs registered at my property, the council were very helpful, I was able to show that all my dogs were cared for well with the right requirements that is really COMMON SENSE with dog ownership.

I think DQ and Mark have done a wonderful job coming to this agreement (well done to them :p ) but now it is up to us BREEDERS to show them that we are the responsible breeders that we all say we are and apply for the permits as this may help sort out the real Breeders to the puppyfarmers/backyarders that we all hate so much.

Thats nice.

So I ask again are working sheepdogs or kelpies that are not registered in the kennel club allowed to be bred in this shire?

MM say no, only kennel club dogs and breeders can breed in this shire,

Do you agree and also say that only kennel club dogs and breeders can be bred legally in this shire?

This is true for now - the definition of a breeder is someone who ever breeds a litter but the way they are wording it at the moment is that only ANKC breeders can apply for a permit and that each permit will be taken on its own merits and anyone seen to be breeding commercially will not be approved. Its not up on line but it was read out to me.

There is a lot going on behind the scenes.

[shortstep]

Sorry I can't help I know they touched on this but did not really listen as it did not effect me.

Yes that is a common thing with dog breeders, they often only worry about their own small circle in the dog world. You know in the US right now the working breeders (several are PhDs in genetics at the Unis) have sided with other interested groups (just like here) and are assisting with trying to take out the kennel club breeders. There has never been any love lost between the two groups. In the US there great efforts also going on to get all the KC breeders registered with their shires so they know who they are.

Oh well, you know what they say, united we stand and divided we fall.

Well let me ask you this, since taking out byb and puppy mills was high on your interest list, can a 'BYB' get registerd to breed with their not Kennel club registered dogs?

What exactly is the definition used for BYB and puppy mills in this shire?

Just checking again, a breeder is defined as an ANKC registered breeder?

[Steve]

Sorry I can't help I know they touched on this but did not really listen as it did not effect me.

Yes that is a common thing with dog breeders, they often only worry about their own small circle in the dog world. You know in the US right now the working breeders (several are PhDs in genetics at the Unis) have sided with other interested groups (just like here) and are assisting with trying to take out the kennel club breeders. There has never been any love lost between the two groups. In the US there great efforts also going on to get all the KC breeders registered with their shires so they know who they are.

Oh well, you know what they say, united we stand and divided we fall.

Well let me ask you this, since taking out byb and puppy mills was high on your interest list, can a 'BYB' get registerd to breed with their not Kennel club registered dogs?

What exactly is the definition used for BYB and puppy mills in this shire?

Just checking again, a breeder is defined as an ANKC registered breeder?

I asked for the definition of a breeder - answer anyone who ever breeds a litter but only those who are registered with the ANKC fit the criteria to apply for a permit.

[shortstep]

What I took from the whole meeting is that the council are giving Dogs QLD members the opportunity to prove to them that we (registered breeders) are better then the puppyfarmers/backyarders and by doing so be HONEST have ALL our dogs on our property registered with the council, they also very clearly stated in the meeting that the dogs did not have to a compound as such they did not care if they lived in your house and slept on your bed. I believe for the Moreton Bay residets this is a big relief for us all, I am currently one of those 40 people that have a permit with all my dogs registered at my property, the council were very helpful, I was able to show that all my dogs were cared for well with the right requirements that is really COMMON SENSE with dog ownership.

I think DQ and Mark have done a wonderful job coming to this agreement (well done to them :p ) but now it is up to us BREEDERS to show them that we are the responsible breeders that we all say we are and apply for the permits as this may help sort out the real Breeders to the puppyfarmers/backyarders that we all hate so much.

Thats nice.

So I ask again are working sheepdogs or kelpies that are not registered in the kennel club allowed to be bred in this shire?

MM say no, only kennel club dogs and breeders can breed in this shire,

Do you agree and also say that only kennel club dogs and breeders can be bred legally in this shire?

This is true for now - the definition of a breeder is someone who ever breeds a litter but the way they are wording it at the moment is that only ANKC breeders can apply for a permit and that each permit will be taken on its own merits and anyone seen to be breeding commercially will not be approved. Its not up on line but it was read out to me.

There is a lot going on behind the scenes.

Thanks Steve.

I said on the other thread about the Gold Coast that this plan had been around for a while and I believe the goal was to take out all breeders.

I do not think think this has anything to do with considering ANKC breeders as better. It has everything to do with shutting down all other breeders in one quick blow and then focusing the attack on the remaining few KC breeders that are all registered and totally documented with their shires.

Maybe a good re-read of the Walrus and the Carpenter is in order, we are the oysters.

"It seems a shame," the Walrus said,

"To play them such a trick,

After we've brought them out so far,

And made them trot so quick!"

The Carpenter said nothing but

"The butter's spread too thick!"

"I weep for you," the Walrus said:

"I deeply sympathize."

With sobs and tears he sorted out

Those of the largest size,

Holding his pocket-handkerchief

Before his streaming eyes.

"O Oysters," said the Carpenter,

"You've had a pleasant run!

Shall we be trotting home again?'

But answer came there none--

And this was scarcely odd, because

They'd eaten every one.

[shortstep]

Just out of interest, what is the population in these 3 shires?

Web says just the city of Caboolture is 21478, have no idea what the 3 shires would total.

Have no idea how to figure out how many families and individuals that would make but if you divide the number by 3 it is 7150 families.

Will 40 small ANKC breeders be able to supply all the needed pet dogs for the community?

Just lets say they each breed 1 litters per year that is 40 litters, average I believe is around 5 pups, 200 puppies a year. Take off 2 from each litter (80 pups) to go to show homes and that leaves 120 pups a year for the community.

So using the 7150 singles or family untis that might want a pet, if they all go on a waiting list for pup, it would be 59 years before they all got offered one puppy.

Well they do say if we can just get one generation raised with out a dog in the family that the resistance will end and dogs can be eliminated.

Edited October 1, 2010 by shortstep

[happyfoot]

Just out of interest, what is the population in these 3 shires?

Web says just the city of Caboolture is 21478, have no idea what the 3 shires would total.

Have no idea how to figure out how many families and individuals that would make but if you divide the number by 3 it is 7150 families.

Will 40 small ANKC breeders be able to supply all the needed pet dogs for the community?

Just lets say they each breed 1 litters per year that is 40 litters, average I believe is around 5 pups, 200 puppies a year. Take off 2 from each litter (80 pups) to go to show homes and that leaves 120 pups a year for the community.

So using the 7150 singles or family untis that might want a pet, if they all go on a waiting list for pup, it would be 59 years before they all got offered one puppy.

Well they do say if we can just get one generation raised with out a dog in the family that the resistance will end and dogs can be eliminated.

40 is the number of Breeders that have ALREADY applied for a permit and have currently been approved for a breeders permit as you would have learnt if you were at the meeting. Let me say with the amount in the room for the 3 shires there would have been many many more then 40 Breeders at the meeting and not many of them would only have one dog.

So are you saying that it is more important to supply puppies to families so people dont miss out then it is to breed for the standard of the dog. I am sure that most REGISTERED BREEDERS would agree that we breed to improve what we already have and then if the community is lucky they then have the chance to purchase a puppy. We all know that we don't just sell to our local council area families come from all over.

I am sorry I don't agree with you comment but I have to wonder if your loyal to the pure bred dog??? or are you a person that breeds for the $$$

[shortstep]

So are you saying that it is more important to supply puppies to families so people dont miss out then it is to breed for the standard of the dog. I am sure that most REGISTERED BREEDERS would agree that we breed to improve what we already have and then if the community is lucky they then have the chance to purchase a puppy. We all know that we don't just sell to our local council area families come from all over.

I am sorry I don't agree with you comment but I have to wonder if your loyal to the pure bred dog??? or are you a person that breeds for the $$$

Right on cue, do not answer the hard questions that call out what is really going on.

Instead you take it personal and attack the person who questions what you are doing.

[HOGWARTZBOXERS]

As far as the "people" who are able to apply for the permits, to my understanding of what was said, is that they must be apart of a specific governing body or reputable association, not JUST the ankc. I believe the German Shepard club was mentioned as an example and the Border club, (I think) and the cat clubs. It must be an association that is governed by a code of ethic that its members must adhere to.

Cheers

Hogz

[happyfoot]

As far as the "people" who are able to apply for the permits, to my understanding of what was said, is that they must be apart of a specific governing body or reputable association, not JUST the ankc. I believe the German Shepard club was mentioned as an example and the Border club, (I think) and the cat clubs. It must be an association that is governed by a code of ethic that its members must adhere to.

Cheers

Hogz

No not an attack on me as I do the right thing but personally I really not worried about supply. I am worried about the animals. I agree with Hogwartzboxers that if you are associated with a reputable association you can apply. Sorry what was the hard question??? the amount in shire ? not sure but again don't really care as I do not breed my dogs to supply for them I breed them to better my breed and improve what I already have. sorry to disapoint I did not take it personally at all!!!!!

[Steve]

Just out of interest, what is the population in these 3 shires?

Web says just the city of Caboolture is 21478, have no idea what the 3 shires would total.

Have no idea how to figure out how many families and individuals that would make but if you divide the number by 3 it is 7150 families.

Will 40 small ANKC breeders be able to supply all the needed pet dogs for the community?

Just lets say they each breed 1 litters per year that is 40 litters, average I believe is around 5 pups, 200 puppies a year. Take off 2 from each litter (80 pups) to go to show homes and that leaves 120 pups a year for the community.

So using the 7150 singles or family untis that might want a pet, if they all go on a waiting list for pup, it would be 59 years before they all got offered one puppy.

Well they do say if we can just get one generation raised with out a dog in the family that the resistance will end and dogs can be eliminated.

40 is the number of Breeders that have ALREADY applied for a permit and have currently been approved for a breeders permit as you would have learnt if you were at the meeting. Let me say with the amount in the room for the 3 shires there would have been many many more then 40 Breeders at the meeting and not many of them would only have one dog.

So are you saying that it is more important to supply puppies to families so people dont miss out then it is to breed for the standard of the dog. I am sure that most REGISTERED BREEDERS would agree that we breed to improve what we already have and then if the community is lucky they then have the chance to purchase a puppy. We all know that we don't just sell to our local council area families come from all over.

I am sorry I don't agree with you comment but I have to wonder if your loyal to the pure bred dog??? or are you a person that breeds for the $$$

There are many people who breed dogs well who are not ANKC recognised. Mini Foxie breeders , breeds in development, working dog breeders etc.

Do you really think that when this is all done and dusted that a council is going to be able to indefinitely give advantage to one resident over another especially when they are a group representing a vast minority based on whether or not they breed ANKC registered dogs? Do you really think that one person is going to be able to own and breed 8 dogs but their neighbour wont be able to own and breed 2 if they are not ANKC registered? Where is the equity? Where is the ability to trade? Do you really think that one shire is able to say that an activity which is deemed to be legal and a bone fide manner of earing a living in all other shires is not able to be undertaken in their shire? Do you remember that many people in high places happen to think that purebred dogs are less healthy and that we are guilty of cruelty by breeding them?

There is much work to be done here before we start cheering and much will depend on definitions, wordings and where local planning laws cut in.

I can tell you that in NSW we can own any amount of dogs we like but via state law a breeder is anyone who breeds one litter and even though we dont need even a permit to breed dogs or rescue dogs in this state according to the laws pertaining to dog legislation we do need permits to breed a dog or rescue one dog under local planning laws which pertain to running a business from home even though we see ourselves as a hobby. A council cant say one person can breed purebred sheep but his neighbour is not able to breed cross bred sheep and sooner or later what is being presented as happening is going to change.

[Steve]

As far as the "people" who are able to apply for the permits, to my understanding of what was said, is that they must be apart of a specific governing body or reputable association, not JUST the ankc. I believe the German Shepard club was mentioned as an example and the Border club, (I think) and the cat clubs. It must be an association that is governed by a code of ethic that its members must adhere to.

Cheers

Hogz

Oh well then thats different - that lets in members of the AAPDB but how are they going to get past the bits about commercial breeding etc when thats a commercial breeders group? The wording will need to be amended from what was read out to me today.

[Steve]

There is a difference between saying that people who are members of a certain group or people who have their dogs registered with some group get discounts or exemptions to stopping people who exercise freedom of choice and elect not to be members or not to register their dogs with that group from being able to have the same rights if they comply with other state and council laws.

They can stop them breeding pit bulls but not dogs which are not ANKC - its still legal in this country to breed cross bred dogs and non registered purebred dogs.

To introduce laws which do this - allow only one group of people certain rights and access to markets , ability to trade and produce - it would cause an anti competitive environment. Lets not forget QCCC members can sell their puppies to pet shops and we do sell puppies we dont keep.

Time will tell.

Queensland laws

An activity to which the proposed local law applies, is of a commercial,

(or potentially commercial), nature.

A commercial activity is one that would normally involve a financial

transaction and includes a notion of profit making or economic gain.

Examples include activities relating to production/extraction, handling,

transport/distribution, purchase, sale, storage and disposal of goods or

services for a fee

There is a market (or potential for a market) for the activity to which

the proposed local law applies.

A market includes all goods or services that are substitutable or

otherwise exchangeable with each other, taking into account matters

such as prices, characteristics and uses. Hence, markets involve

competition, or the potential for competition, to occur.

Criteria to be Applied in Identifying Anti-competitive

Provisions

(i) an outright prohibition in regard to any particular business activity;

(ii) a statutory monopoly;

(iii) licensing or registration requirements for persons or bodies wishing to engage in a

particular business activity and which operate on the basis of either limiting the

number of participants or limiting participation to those persons or bodies that meet

defined standards, qualifications or training or to those who hold membership of a

particular occupational or professional organisation;

(iv) allocation of quantitative entitlements, quotas or franchises among participants

engaging in a particular business activity;

(v) requirements for prescribed quality or technical standards to be observed, or for

specified equipment to be used, in regard to a particular business activity, other than

those requirements that apply generally in regard to public/workplace health and

safety;

(vi) price control provisions, whether by way of setting, or prescribing a process for

determining, the maximum/minimum prices or charges for a specified good or

service or the maximum/minimum rates of commission, agency or fees for any good

or service;

(vii) restrictions on the conduct of a business relating to matters such as hours of

operation, size of premises, provision of specified facilities, geographical area of

operation, advertising or promotion, sector-specific operation (eg, retail vs

wholesale), type of good or service allowed to be offered for sale, etc;

(viii) the nomination of a particular person or body as the sole or preferred customer or

supplier in regard to a particular business activity;

(ix) measures that have the effect of conferring a benefit on a particular person or body

engaged in a particular business activity relative to other parties engaged in the same

activity, including prescribing technical specifications or standards that can only be

met by a particular operator, prescribing different requirements for public sector vis

a vis private sector operators or making financial assistance available (including the

waiver of various State or local government charges or fees as well as direct

assistance measures such as a grant or subsidy) if a business is carried on at a

particular place or in a particular manner;

(x) the allocation of licences or other authorities which either allow the holder access to

natural resources (including water, minerals, forests and fisheries)7 or which create

rights, or permit specified activities, denied to non-holders (for example, licences to

dispose of waste material in a particular manner);

(xi) preferential purchasing arrangements.

7 (vii) restrictions on the conduct of a business relating to matters such as hours of

operation, size of premises, provision of specified facilities, geographical area of

operation, advertising or promotion, sector-specific operation (eg, retail vs

wholesale), type of good or service allowed to be offered for sale, etc;

(viii) the nomination of a particular person or body as the sole or preferred customer or

supplier in regard to a particular business activity;

(ix) measures that have the effect of conferring a benefit on a particular person or body

engaged in a particular business activity relative to other parties engaged in the same

activity, including prescribing technical specifications or standards that can only be

met by a particular operator, prescribing different requirements for public sector vis

a vis private sector operators or making financial assistance available (including the

waiver of various State or local government charges or fees as well as direct

assistance measures such as a grant or subsidy) if a business is carried on at a

particular place or in a particular manner;

(x) the allocation of licences or other authorities which either allow the holder access to

natural resources (including water, minerals, forests and fisheries)7 or which create

rights, or permit specified activities, denied to non-holders (for example, licences to

dispose of waste material in a particular manner);

(xi) preferential purchasing arrangements.

7

http://pan.search.qld.gov.au/search/search...amp;profile=dip

Edited October 1, 2010 by Steve

[shortstep]

There is a difference between saying that people who are members of a certain group or people who have their dogs registered with some group get discounts or exemptions to stopping people who exercise freedom of choice and elect not to be members or not to register their dogs with that group from being able to have the same rights if they comply with other state and council laws.

They can stop them breeding pit bulls but not dogs which are not ANKC - its still legal in this country to breed cross bred dogs and non registered purebred dogs.

To introduce laws which do this - allow only one group of people certain rights and access to markets , ability to trade and produce - it would cause an anti competitive environment. Lets not forget QCCC members can sell their puppies to pet shops and we do sell puppies we dont keep.

Time will tell.

Queensland laws

An activity to which the proposed local law applies, is of a commercial,

(or potentially commercial), nature.

A commercial activity is one that would normally involve a financial

transaction and includes a notion of profit making or economic gain.

Examples include activities relating to production/extraction, handling,

transport/distribution, purchase, sale, storage and disposal of goods or

services for a fee

http://pan.search.qld.gov.au/search/search...amp;profile=dip

Well that says it all and from several different areas.

Let hope the council get some good council on the law.