Breeders Permit Meeting

[HOGWARTZBOXERS]

For those of you in the region.

>

> The Moreton Bay Regional Council meeting is to be held at the Narangba Community Centre, 229

> Mackie Road, Narangba on WEDNESDAY 29 September 2010 from 6:00pm to

> 8:00pm,

>

> To discuss recently introduced Breeder Permit Scheme.

Please try to attend to support the Pure Breed Dog Community.

Cheers

Hogz

[shortstep]

For those of you in the region.

>

> The Moreton Bay Regional Council meeting is to be held at the Narangba Community Centre, 229

> Mackie Road, Narangba on WEDNESDAY 29 September 2010 from 6:00pm to

> 8:00pm,

>

> To discuss recently introduced Breeder Permit Scheme.

Please try to attend to support the Pure Breed Dog Community.

Cheers

Hogz

Not in your area, but good luck.

Can you post the rules they have put into place?

[HOGWARTZBOXERS]

Sure, as long as they are not 30 pages long...... Should be interesting but I dont think it will be exciting, remember...they want our money not our love.

Hogz

Not in your area, but good luck.

Can you post the rules they have put into place?

[badboyz]

I spoke to lady on phone yesterday, as I am still awaiting my permit renewal and the re-invoicing of my individual rego bills which were incorrect.

She mentioned they only have 40 people with breeder's permits on their register in the whole shire. Not sure how that happened. She also mentioned they want to instigate a permit number to be used in all advertising, so that when on the hunt for backyard breeder's, when they see the permit number, they will know those are legitimate breeders. Sounds interesting. As much as I hate going to meetings, and I think I will make the effort this time. With all the problems they are having combining the info from the 3 shires, I think it will be worth being involved at this important time, and encourage others to attend.

[Steve]

I spoke to lady on phone yesterday, as I am still awaiting my permit renewal and the re-invoicing of my individual rego bills which were incorrect.

She mentioned they only have 40 people with breeder's permits on their register in the whole shire. Not sure how that happened. She also mentioned they want to instigate a permit number to be used in all advertising, so that when on the hunt for backyard breeder's, when they see the permit number, they will know those are legitimate breeders. Sounds interesting. As much as I hate going to meetings, and I think I will make the effort this time. With all the problems they are having combining the info from the 3 shires, I think it will be worth being involved at this important time, and encourage others to attend.

This s is pretty much what they have introduced on the gold coast and registered breeders are chucking it in - Ive personally heard of 7 registered breeders who will no longer breed.

Sounds good until you read the fine print and remember once you have that breeders permit other planning laws cut in so you don't just look at what they want for the dogs but what they want for a home business of breeding dogs.

Be very careful and in case you are interested I would advise if you can vote against it do so. Some of the breeders who will keep going have also devised some ways to get around it - it will only mean those who are already out in the open pay more money.Don't be fooled into thinking that any exemptions afforded to registered breeders will count - they wont.

Say no to new laws we already have enough.

[badboyz]

Thanks for the warning Steve. They came across as all wonderful and friendly and "we want to help you". New laws are not yet up for review until about the 25th October. I have had a breeder's permit for years now anyway, so they already know about me.

[Fit for a King]

Steve - before you do any more "mentoring" in a region in which you do not live(?) and have no personal involvemnet in perhaps you should talk to the MBSC and to the DQ officer Mark Sheppard who has been instrumental in getting this situation resolved for registered DQ breeders. The new local laws have yet to be distributed for consultation but Mark will be in the midst of it ensuring DQ member breeders are protected. The MBSC staff that gave the presentation last night were very forthright with what they wanted and what we could expect in return.

Less scaremongering more positive action would be good.

[Steve]

Steve - before you do any more "mentoring" in a region in which you do not live(?) and have no personal involvemnet in perhaps you should talk to the MBSC and to the DQ officer Mark Sheppard who has been instrumental in getting this situation resolved for registered DQ breeders. The new local laws have yet to be distributed for consultation but Mark will be in the midst of it ensuring DQ member breeders are protected. The MBSC staff that gave the presentation last night were very forthright with what they wanted and what we could expect in return.

Less scaremongering more positive action would be good.

Just by chance I do actually have personal involvement in that area but I also have professional interest in whats going on as well. My job is to talk to OUR members and my interest is in how the new laws are impacting on THEM.All of our breeder members in Queensland are registered breeders with DQ by the way. Any one who is going to go off like lambs to the slaughter and just give the nod to ANY new laws in the current climate under the advice that its going to give some exemptions to registered breeders without being astute enough to take a really really good look at how planning laws may cut in etc is foolhardy.

I appreciate your input on what you think I should do and who you think I should speak with but unless you know already who I have spoken to and what I have done it doesnt seem to be a very good start point for that advice so thanks anyway but I dont agree with you.

[Jed]

2 breeders I know applied for breeders' licences when they were first brought in, and when registering dogs was more expensive. Some of the new legislation provides cheaper registration per dog without making drastic changes to the regulations. Both the people I know were happy with the outcome.

I would like to hear the outcome of the meeting when someone has time

Edited September 30, 2010 by Jed

[MissMonaro]

Basically the only reason they have only 40 breeders registered is because I think you will find many breeders are still very skeptical of the whole idea and have not submitted their forms. Others I know have been waiting ages for theirs to be approved and ring council and each person has a different reply and some have no idea at all - so that is not installing much confidence among breeders.

For more years than I care to remember, the Caboolture Shire Council have been very unfriendly towards dog-people. Now they all want us to "trust" them, that they want to work with us, etc etc.....past behaviour is very hard to put out of your mind and as much as I'd like to trust them..... it is very hard.

There was a really good turnout last night - lots of questions asked and answered.

One of the main things was that unless you are a registered breeder on their system, then you cannot breed a litter of puppies/cats/cows etc and they will be coming down hard on people that advertise without their MBRC breeders number. They advise to include the number on your webpages as well as they will be checking these things as well.

I have already heard on the grapevine that they are posing as puppy ppl to come out and inspect your place and then fining ppl that do not comply etc.

They also said they have removed the "designer breeds" of cavoodle, spoodle, labradoodle etc from their database and those dogs will now be registered as cavalier cross etc....so that is one good thing.

The good outcome is that for breeders - your dog registration fees per year will drop....yahhh !! So that is a positive. You can still own a show dog and not breed and get a CCCQ discount on your rego.....which would be fine if you have one show dog. If you have several though, you may need to look at a breeders permit to bring your dog rego down.

However - bare in mind that you have to be a registered breeder with Dogs Qld first - so you would have to take in to consideration the costs involved with that as well and maintaining that year after year, so that you can still have a breeders permit with council.

For all intents, I think having breeders permits is a good idea. As long as they dont go all hitler police on the proper breeders whilst the puppy farms and backyarders still get away with doing what they are doing, which is the wrong thing.

Edited September 30, 2010 by MissMonaro

[Fit for a King]

One of the many reasons I have not joined the MDBA is that frankly the organisation doesn't, IMO, carry any weight within local or state government or the ANKC. I am well aware that the people driving the new laws within MBSC HAVE spoken to the correct people and ARE acting on behalf of DQ members with the correct advice. Disagree all you like - I know you have your barrow to push.

If you don't live in the area what exactly is your personal involvement?

[goldchow]

While not scaremongering I too would be extremely careful before agreeing to anything such as these supposedly great ideas. Last weekend in a search for a suitable stud dog I spoke to ANKC registered breeder friends who are currently affected by the new Breeder permit scheme on the GC. Both feel they are going to be unable to continue breeding the occasional litter as CCC members due to the requirements and the expense they are expected to outlay for breeder permits, concrete floored, weldmesh or other compounds, for two to four dogs who all live in the house, on acreage. As one said " Its a hobby for god sake, I just like to breed some good dogs sometimes to keep my line going and for some nice pet homes"

We have MDBA members (all of who are ANKC registered & exhibitors) in the same location who have contacted us telling us they too are expected to build compounds (surburban yards) and one being harrassed to have a six year old bitch desexed.....because she's six years old.

They have finally receive a reply from Mark Sheppard but so far nothing further has eventuated.

I know Caboolture Shire, I also know that the old Pine Rivers shire was more amiable towards dog breeders than any other Shire. The new attitudes both Caboolture and Sunshine Coast have shown towards dog breeders has been like a breathe of fresh air but this Gold Coast pilot scheme which it seems is already being implemented state wide is not as innocent as it appears on paper. Even up here in what is often termed Puppy Farm heaven, an ANKC member happened to stick their head up and has now been hit with a $1500 'Breeder Permit and is under the gun to build kennels, miles from anywhere, no neighbours and small number of dogs all in good nick and happily and comfortably housed.

Why??????

I've spent my life trying to live and keep my dogs within the required regulations, moved three times because councils change, their rules along with them so yes I am sceptical, and tired of fighting all these so called rules & regulations for a hobby that I loved. We already have more than enough laws and rules and regulations in place that aren't being enforced, why in heaven do we need more!!!

And Carol. Steve is also an ANKC Breeder and can see these laws sweeping the country, not just Queensland, shouldn't we be sticking together???

Edited September 30, 2010 by goldchow

[HOGWARTZBOXERS]

I found the meeting to be very well delivered with open and honest answers to quite a few "interesting" questions.

The base line is that with a permit I am no longer limited to 4 dogs as I was pre permit, my dog registration has gone from

$80 per entire dog with no ccc discounts down to $60 per entire dog with ccc discounts, down to $20 per entire dog with a permit.

Yes the permit costs $125.00 on application and $25 yearly but that will more than pay for its self in the future from savings on dog rego.

The standards required to obtain a permit is no more than the CCC,s code of ethics requires and as stated at the meeting, probably less.

The law requireing a breeders permit to sell pups in the shire has been in for a few years already but not enforced, no doubt this will change.

As stated at the meeting, Council intends to start to get tough with the puppy farmers, as we have been asking then to do for years, but they need

to seperate the Registered breeders from the others first and to do this they have to know who we are. A permit will identify us.

Most, like me, are/were not worried about council inspecting the standard of care we give our dogs, but were terrified about them doing a head count.

my own case was I was allowed 4 dogs on 2.2 acres , I had 6 dogs, so that was 2 dogs I would be fined for having AND have to get rid of.

Now with the permit, I can have 8 plus dogs if I wanted and could accomodate for, and still pay LESS for registration AND be law abiding as I always wanted

to be but couldn't due to number restriction, so no more panic stations if a council car drives up the street.

I believed council/dogs qld are trying to be fair with us,( but I am a trusting person) so untill something presents its self that is different to what they told a room full of people who all heard the same thing, I am prepared to meet half way and get the permit and register ALL my dogs.

Cheers

Hogz

[badboyz]

The new laws will have to come in, in one form or another, with 3 shires merging into 1. Currently we have 3 different laws operating, which is just not on. Most of these new laws are already in place in the old Pine Rivers district. I can say that I have never had any problems with that council since I have held a breeder's permit. The rates are mostly the same as I have payed in the past. 2 good things I can see is that I will no longer be subject to continual yearly inspections, not that it was a problem, but was a nuiscance having to chase them up when not home and re-arrange appointments. Also I have always been limited strictly to 4 dogs, which is very hindering. Now I may well be able to upgrade that number a little, which would be great. Not that I want any more dogs, but it would give me the freedom to run on a pup or two. The biggest change will be the use of a the permit number in advertising. I rarely breed nowadays, so I can't see this being a problem. They did stress that all they were discussing was in reference to registered hobby breeders only - not commercial breeders.

[ShesaLikeableBiBear]

We have our permit approved for 8 dogs, and the inidcation from the inspector was that if we wished to apply for more in the future that the chances are approval would be given without any 'problems".

There was NO mention made of having to have kennels with concrete runs etc.

Ours are all house dogs and have the run of a house yard. Although we have 40 acres we choose to keep them in the house yard.

We are members of both DOGSQLD and the MDBA.

It would seem that perhaps the Council are stricter on those in suburbia as opposed to those on acerage?.

[Steve]

The new laws will have to come in, in one form or another, with 3 shires merging into 1. Currently we have 3 different laws operating, which is just not on. Most of these new laws are already in place in the old Pine Rivers district. I can say that I have never had any problems with that council since I have held a breeder's permit. The rates are mostly the same as I have payed in the past. 2 good things I can see is that I will no longer be subject to continual yearly inspections, not that it was a problem, but was a nuiscance having to chase them up when not home and re-arrange appointments. Also I have always been limited strictly to 4 dogs, which is very hindering. Now I may well be able to upgrade that number a little, which would be great. Not that I want any more dogs, but it would give me the freedom to run on a pup or two. The biggest change will be the use of a the permit number in advertising. I rarely breed nowadays, so I can't see this being a problem. They did stress that all they were discussing was in reference to registered hobby breeders only - not commercial breeders.

Then if you guys are going to better off that is great and I hope when the dust settles that's exactly what happens.

We have had a couple of issues which have popped up in other shires due to planning laws which cut across dog laws.

One member went to a meeting and was happy with what she had been told but now the laws have come in she has been placed in a spot where she is no longer able to

carry on as she has been. She has been told she is to pay a 1500 DA fee to be able to breed dogs on her property which is 160 acres and zoned rural.She owns 6 ANKC registered dogs and in order to get this permit she has to have kennels constructed with whelping areas and quarantine pen.So when she went to the meeting and was told she would be able to get a permit for more dogs it turned out that she is but in order to do even continue what she was doing for over 10 years on that property without a problem that she has to have further requirements to comply with other codes. It appears that the permit places you in spot where you are considered to be operating a business.

In another shire the permit is around $400 which no one had to pay before now and in order to have the permit issued you have to have your house inspected and it is then that the planning issues cut in regarding where and how they have to be housed - how far from neighbours etc.

I guess in some cases some people have also been owning dogs and breeding a litter now and then without council approval and they have been able to own dogs which havent been registered with council and breed in areas where they shouldnt have been and they will now no longer be able to do that as easily. You may say well too bad they should have been complying with 2 dog limits etc and not breeding when they didnt have approvals to do that but there's a hell of a lot of hobby breeders who have been guilty of this including some who frequent this forum. In many shires there is a two dog limit on and if you want a permit to breed the by laws regarding breeding dogs are secondary to running a businesss from home laws and that is where the issues seem to be causing some of the problems people are encountering.

2 Breeders who we have spoken to with 3 and 4 dogs have had to change much of what they have been doing at a high cost to be able to breed a litter.

What Im trying to say is that I dont think its possible to hold off council law changes in Queensland regarding dog breeding and it appears that shires will be slightly different from one place to another. The various meetings held prior to law changes are really just a PR exercise and Im aware that QC has been able to get some exemptions on keeping entire dogs for their members - Its unlikely that even if you went there and protested that anything would change because by the time it gets to a meeting its pretty much already decided.Half a dozen we have spoken to in Gold coast shire [registered breeders] already have worked out a couple of ways around it and no doubt breeders of DD dogs will be able to work out the ways to do what they want without paying a permit, having their homes inspected - or by paying the permit, having their homes inspected for one breeding dog when they actually own 6 etc.

Registered breeders in these shires have been able to have 20 or so dogs without a permit in areas where they needed a permit if they had more than 2 and breed them and not worry too much about being spotted - those days are gone. They can still pop them in the car and drive them to a friends house while the inspection is on but there are too many ways now to pick them up at point of sale especially if you need to quote your permit number when you advertise them or sell them. Assuming of course that its policed. Time will tell. Some may say this is a good thing and the intent to stop puppy farmers - or at least to get more money out of puppy farmers is good but for many who have been small hobby breeders its become rather a pain in the neck and no longer worth it. Some puppy farmers who have had dogs seized have had permits already and some still operate even after they have been pinged. ANKC and Dogs NSW [and Qcc as far as I know- though Mark didnt get to the round table meeting- I assumed queensland CC would agree with ANKC ] were against licencing breeders.In fact the only breeders who were in favour of a this were the AAPDB - the commercial breeders group but it seems to me that the word permit is in reality exactly that anyway. If RSPCA get their wish and are able to police council regs for breeeding dogs as a well as POCTA laws in all states as they do in NSW at least if everyone who breeds dogs has to have a permit to breed and sell puppies its easier to find them if they need to.

[Steve]

We have our permit approved for 8 dogs, and the inidcation from the inspector was that if we wished to apply for more in the future that the chances are approval would be given without any 'problems".

There was NO mention made of having to have kennels with concrete runs etc.

Ours are all house dogs and have the run of a house yard. Although we have 40 acres we choose to keep them in the house yard.

We are members of both DOGSQLD and the MDBA.

It would seem that perhaps the Council are stricter on those in suburbia as opposed to those on acerage?.

Yes it is obvious that its going to be different for people depending on where they live.

If you are good to have 8 on 40 acres without kennels etc but someone else not far from you

isnt O.K. to do that and have 6 on 160 acres in a different shire it hardly seems to be fair does it?

Edited September 30, 2010 by Steve

[Fit for a King]

Well the residents where it is "not fair" then better get in touch with Mark - engage him to start negotiating on their behalf - or are you suggesting we should lose our deal because someone else hasn't reaped that benefit? But of course if the MDBA thinks it can do a better job please go right ahead and prove it......

[Steve]

Well the residents where it is "not fair" then better get in touch with Mark - engage him to start negotiating on their behalf - or are you suggesting we should lose our deal because someone else hasn't reaped that benefit? But of course if the MDBA thinks it can do a better job please go right ahead and prove it......

Fit for a King Ive no idea what your problem is - the residents we have spoken to have already spoken to Mark and we have recieved some of the replies from mark via email as well.

There is no suggestion here that the MDBA could do a better job or that anyone should lose any deal that Mark has been able to negotiate for them.It certainly isnt about proving anything via the MDBA.

Im not interested in getting into some sort of argument and trade personal snips with you or anyone my intent was give a heads up that dog laws were not the only thing that may impact and for people to be aware of that. Obviously thats bothered you in some way which I apologise for but I didnt realise you were the head cheer leader for a Mark fan club and would be so defensive of anything you saw as a negative comment about what he has been able to have exempted for DQ members.

I wasnt trying to say we could do better for DQ members than Mark has - because I know we cant. Why would we? We are not DQ.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Steve

[MissMonaro]

I also wanted to add......mention was also said at the meeting about new Council Laws coming in to affect in October.

Steve, I do follow your thought process on that one - I just hope that it doesn't counter act the hard work Mark has put in, and the trust that breeders have or are going to put back in to the Council being fairer to the breeders in the area.

However, I'm with Hogz though in that I also want to do the right thing.