Two Questions

[Max#1]

Hi everyone,

I have two questions about my five month old bc cross.

First of all - I've noticed when we're out and about socializing he has an uncanny ability to 'annoy' terrier breed type dogs. Typically these dogs are smaller than him. What he does, which he doesn't seem to do to other dogs, usually bigger dogs I guess, is whack them in the face with his paw. What I'm curious about, is this an 'invitation to play' that goes wrong, or is it a dominance thing? Its just that it usually has the effect of the terrier having a go at him. I usually immediately restrain him and remove him from the situation. Is there anything I should be doing about this behaviour?

Second question - my puppy is extraordinarily ball focused. As in once the word is said, or he sees one moving, there's not much you can do to distract him from it. We play ball at home, at least once a day. And what I've found for my sanity is we play for awhile, but then I 'finish' the game by saying 'finished' and put the ball out of site (otherwise the game NEVER ends!). This is fine for at home, and he generally accepts it and doesn't proceed to eat the walls or anything. But the other day we were in an off-leash park, and there were some kids playing ball. He could see the ball flying in the air, and just ran back and forth and back and forth and back and forth, the whole time in that focused mode that he goes into. You can imagine, eyes glazed over, crouched down..... Usually he has very good recall (for a five month puppy) and will come if I call him back from other people/dogs. But he didn't even know I existed after he saw this ball. What on earth can I do to get him to hear me when there's also a ball around? Is it a matter of training at home/at the park by throwing a ball and calling him back off it with a reward? Is there a better way? Or do I just avoid those situations?

Thanks for any suggestions! Novice ball-crazy dog owner here!

[aussielover]

Yes ball obsession is often a problem with herding breeds. They go into a "zone" and get a look in their eyes....

My aussie shepherd had it and i;ve seen sooo many herding dogs out there with a "ball problem" LOL

I'm not really sure what you should do- you definietely need to work on recall, perhaps use his own ball as the reward in these situations.

My own dog liked to stick close to us, so if we walked away she would just follow. BUt she was totally obsessed with her own ball.

My puppy bats other dog away- but it is more a gentle/playful thing she does, especially to other puppies. It has never resulted in aggression though and usually results in a game ie. little dog comes back for more.

I do find terriers are quick to anger though and my girl usually gives them respect.

[Max#1]

Do you think its because I put the ball away? Thereby making it a 'special' game? Should I leave it out with his other toys to try to desensitize him to it? The one we have does squeak.... so it is a bit of a sanity thing!

[aussielover]

No, I think its just a herding breed thing.

You'd be best off speaking with a professional or at least a knowledgeable BC person if you don't want the behaviour at all as I believe it to be quite an obsessive behaviour. I actually think it gives the dog a "job" to do, therefore fulfilling their need to work (a bit)

I think for a lot of people it is more about management.

If you get a solid recall and a good down-stay, then at least your dog won't be able to annoy other people.

Ball obsessed dogs are very easy to exercise though

[Max#1]

Yeah okay. We're only four weeks into obedience, and we're only in the first puppy class so not much recall/down-stay as yet. So I guess I'll avoid the situation til then!

We are going to start 'training' (ie not competing) for flyball soon so that should help to focus some of that ball-chasing energy!

[lilli_star]

Yeah okay. We're only four weeks into obedience, and we're only in the first puppy class so not much recall/down-stay as yet. So I guess I'll avoid the situation til then!

We are going to start 'training' (ie not competing) for flyball soon so that should help to focus some of that ball-chasing energy!

Oh I think flyball is so cool! I've always wanted to have a dog that does it. Maybe Ruby could one day...

[koalathebear]

If you are lucky, dancinbc may visit this thread - she's very knowledgeable about border collies and has also illuminated certain aspects of Elbie's character for me. Maybe change the title to "Two questions re border collie x puppy" in order to catch her eye

We're lucky with Elbie - he loves the ball but he's not obsessed by it. The only sign of ball obsession we see is that when we're playing: "put it in the box", if there are several toys he will pick up the ball and keep putting that in the box above all other toys It's possible that it's because we started out teaching him "in the box" with a ball, but no idea ...

As to the terrier thing ... that is an interesting observation. We have all sorts of dogs at our dog school - big and small, fluffy and non-fluffy, purebred and muttley. Elbie generally gets along with all of them during class - labs, JRTs, etc but:

1. there was one black min. schnauzer that always lunged at him and seemed to want to kill him. In time, the two have become used to each other so the schnauzer no longer lunges. Weirdly enough, the min schnauzer has a twin who has never had a problem at all with Elbie.

2. one time in class, a terrier got distracted and lunged at Elbie, Elbie lunged back and both got booted out of class for being distracting

I'm not sure how representative the above two incidents are given that Elbie's fine with all the other dogs, including an airedale terrier that was in the class but it was interesting that his only two negative encounters at dog school have been with terriers.

I hope you resolve the issues! More photos of little Max please, I have been wondering how he is.

[Kavik]

you could try using your own ball as a reward for your dog coming back to you Make your ball more fun, practice recalls with less distractions with the ball as the reward. Then once this is working, go to where ball games are being played at a distance (and maybe have pup on a long lead at first so he doesn't get the chance to get all the way to the other ball) and recall the pup, with your ball as the reward. Then you are using his desire for the ball to your advantage instead of trying to fight against his desire to get the other ball.

[Max#1]

Okay so the idea is to distract him from other balls with his ball? I think that can work.....! I used to always carry around his ball, the squeaky one, for just in case he didn't come back when I called. I should keep doing that.

All I would have to do is squeak the ball and I would have his immediate full attention...... Of course then catching him would be another problem, but at least his eyes wouldn't leave me!

KTB: sorry I have been slack with photos! I think we were having too much fun with the movie making - I wanted to try to put a movie together, with sub-titles, and music - and I can become very single focused - its nearly there....... We've had a bit of a traumatic last few days though with the little guy losing a whole bunch of teeth, I found four this past week alone! And they're all from the back of his mouth, which resulted in a lot of blood and other 'symptoms'. Could be another topic for discussion (is it okay that its so traumatic?), though if he's got more to lose I will eat my new bumbag!

[Kavik]

Instead of using his ball to distract him from other balls, you could use his ball as a reward for obeying his recall command.

I would break the exercise down into a few parts, practice these in a low distraction environment first before stringing them together and then adding distractions.

1) Recall with ball reward. Call him, show ball/squeak if necessary, when he gets to you throw the ball so he continues along the same path. You may start by throwing the ball as he is running. Eventually you want to call him wihout needing to show the ball obviously and then throw it when he gets to you.

2) Sit for ball reward (he may already do this?).

3) If you are worried about being able to catch him, maybe do a separate exrcise with a sit and collar grab, with food reward. Then incorporate this into sit for ball reward. Then add recall so it is recall and sit for ball reward, occasionally catching him first.

Once he is doing this in low distractions, you can go to where there are some distractions but not balls yet. Once he has the idea with some distractions, go somewhere where there are balls. Might be an idea to have him on a long lead at first so that he can't get to the other ball, and keep a good distance so you have better chance of success.

[koalathebear]

KTB: sorry I have been slack with photos! I think we were having too much fun with the movie making - I wanted to try to put a movie together, with sub-titles, and music - and I can become very single focused - its nearly there....... We've had a bit of a traumatic last few days though with the little guy losing a whole bunch of teeth, I found four this past week alone! And they're all from the back of his mouth, which resulted in a lot of blood and other 'symptoms'. Could be another topic for discussion (is it okay that its so traumatic?), though if he's got more to lose I will eat my new bumbag!

Vidding is fun!! You also get to see what people's taste in music is.

About the teething - I think it can vary. Some puppies seem to go through a very gruelling time during teething - discomfort, pain, chewing ... Have you been giving him cold things to gnaw on?

We were lucky with Elbie that he had a bit of bleeding but he seemed otherwise unfussed. We have a handful of teeth up on the windowsill retrieved from when he was teething. OH jokes that we can use them to clone Elbie one day

[dancinbcs]

Instead of using his ball to distract him from other balls, you could use his ball as a reward for obeying his recall command.

I would break the exercise down into a few parts, practice these in a low distraction environment first before stringing them together and then adding distractions.

1) Recall with ball reward. Call him, show ball/squeak if necessary, when he gets to you throw the ball so he continues along the same path. You may start by throwing the ball as he is running. Eventually you want to call him wihout needing to show the ball obviously and then throw it when he gets to you.

2) Sit for ball reward (he may already do this?).

3) If you are worried about being able to catch him, maybe do a separate exrcise with a sit and collar grab, with food reward. Then incorporate this into sit for ball reward. Then add recall so it is recall and sit for ball reward, occasionally catching him first.

Once he is doing this in low distractions, you can go to where there are some distractions but not balls yet. Once he has the idea with some distractions, go somewhere where there are balls. Might be an idea to have him on a long lead at first so that he can't get to the other ball, and keep a good distance so you have better chance of success.

Excellent advice. Borders that are obsessed with balls or toys are actually the most reliable to train. Squeaky balls or toys are best because you can condition the dog to to come immediately to the sound even if you can't get them to look away from the distraction. My one with the highest drive was so obsessed with finding toys I dropped for him (obedience seek back exercise) that he would actually walk backwards off lead in front of me rather than go for a run in the park, just in case I dropped a toy and wanted him to find it. Nothing could distract that dog from wanting to work for me. Make the obsessive behaviour work in your favour.

The other problem with the terriers is a clash of breed behaviors. Borders have their own unique way of playing and other breeds often don't understand their body language. Terriers work by a completely different lot of body language so it is probably best to avoid these confrontations altogether. Terriers like to stare down other dogs and to a Border Collie being stared at is a huge insult. This is the way they control sheep and they do not ever tolerate other dogs staring at them. Even at show training classes, I avoid taking a Border puppy anywhere near the terrier breeds because it makes them really uncomfortable.

[pomchi]

Hi everyone,

I have two questions about my five month old bc cross.

First of all - I've noticed when we're out and about socializing he has an uncanny ability to 'annoy' terrier breed type dogs. Typically these dogs are smaller than him. What he does, which he doesn't seem to do to other dogs, usually bigger dogs I guess, is whack them in the face with his paw. What I'm curious about, is this an 'invitation to play' that goes wrong, or is it a dominance thing? Its just that it usually has the effect of the terrier having a go at him. I usually immediately restrain him and remove him from the situation. Is there anything I should be doing about this behaviour?

Thanks for any suggestions! Novice ball-crazy dog owner here!

my puppy also does this, batting them in the face with her paws and its usually to smaller dogs ( maybe because she can't reach the bigger ones )

it seems playful, the other dogs don't seem to mind but like you I have always wondered why she does this.

anyone know why they do this?

[Max#1]

Kavik and dancinbcs - thank you for the advice. Especially for breaking it down like that too. That is really helpful for me the novice!!!!!

Its very encouraging to hear that ball-obsessed dogs are easy to train! So far I'm having a lot of fun with training (though with a few frustrations - usually because I'm doing something wrong! Not the dog!) - and I'm always spurred on even further by how responsive and quick and so eager to please the little guy is! I like your story about walking backwards through the park, dancinbcs, especially. Not that I have sought out specifically this working characteristic in a dog, but its really nice knowing you can make him happy by giving him work to do! Max will walk backwards away from me when I'm about to throw a ball, and I'm trying to capture this behaviour to give it its own command. More difficult than I first thought....

Yesterday in the park we met a working kelpie (as in actually from a farm). I wish I had recorded their greeting!!! Both dogs stared at each other from metres away, then walked a few 'stalking' steps, then dropped, then a few 'stalking' steps, then dropped, and so on, until eventually one broke it and made a charge! They were the best play mates because the kelpie wanted to chase/herd, and Max loves to be chased and is constantly trying to stir someone up to chase him. Needless to say he slept well last night! But in that context I can understand that there is a definite difference to the terrier style of play. I will definitely avoid this situation in the future.

lilli_star - I think flyball is cool too! I actually went and watched a competition and I like how serious it is and how pumped up the dogs are! (And KTB, as for music taste, when you google flyball you tube videos, you always get rocking music - whereas agility/tricks videos are always 'lovey' music - very funny contrast!).

[koalathebear]

lilli_star - I think flyball is cool too! I actually went and watched a competition and I like how serious it is and how pumped up the dogs are! (And KTB, as for music taste, when you google flyball you tube videos, you always get rocking music - whereas agility/tricks videos are always 'lovey' music - very funny contrast!).

Wind Beneath My Wings?

For us, we're thinking of going the agility route for Elbie because it might be more interesting for him in the long run - and us with all the variety - tunnels, beams, hoops etc. I worry about injuries in flyball and also poodlefan mentioned to me once that flyball can be quite tough on the dog - which makes sense even if the dog masters that swimmers turn thingy. Also, apparently the dogs get revved up to crazy levels of hyperactivity and barking which I do not want with Elbie because we actually want him to become a calm dog one day instead of the little tornado he is now ...

We're going to do obedience classes until gold level and then might supplement his classes with a trainer that we know in Braidwood but I doubt we'll go obedience trialling ... I suspect OH, Elbie and I would find it a bit boring just trekking around a field doing sits, drops and dumb bell throwing. Also, I'm unco - knowing my luck, I'd hit and kill a judge.

[Max#1]

Or 'Love, love, love.... its got to be looooove'....

Something like that!

Agility also looks like a lot of fun and anything that gets them thinking and moving I think will be a winner! Our first day at dog obedience we walked past dogs training for agility with the upright sticks. First a bc went zoom zoom zoom through the sticks - beautiful to watch. Then an older dog came along. He walked around one, walked around another, then wandered off to say hello to a dog walking past! Hilarious!

I was really surprised at the flyball competition how it all worked. The dogs go into the ring, they all start barking, they run maybe once or twice, then come out of the ring, (these dogs at least had their little paws put in water), and then straight into a crate. To them it was work, and once it was done they were calm. So I don't know if it would encourage bad hyperactivity. I hope! Anyway - I will definitely post updates - we start next week!

Today I had an opportunity to practise 'ball recall'. It worked it worked it worked it worked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He wanted to go home with some other dogs (he thinks he's part of this other pack... I so have to get him a playmate!) - I gave a squeak, he came flying! (with five other dogs in the park.... welll.... nevermind....), and when he really came up close to me I gave a 'yessssss' and threw his ball for the reward. Yay!!!!!!

The dog.

The ball.

[lilli_star]

lilli_star - I think flyball is cool too! I actually went and watched a competition and I like how serious it is and how pumped up the dogs are! (And KTB, as for music taste, when you google flyball you tube videos, you always get rocking music - whereas agility/tricks videos are always 'lovey' music - very funny contrast!).

Wind Beneath My Wings?

For us, we're thinking of going the agility route for Elbie because it might be more interesting for him in the long run - and us with all the variety - tunnels, beams, hoops etc. I worry about injuries in flyball and also poodlefan mentioned to me once that flyball can be quite tough on the dog - which makes sense even if the dog masters that swimmers turn thingy. Also, apparently the dogs get revved up to crazy levels of hyperactivity and barking which I do not want with Elbie because we actually want him to become a calm dog one day instead of the little tornado he is now ...

Yeah, maybe I don't really want Ruby to do flyball after all...it's cool to watch though. My family used to have a Fox terrier (I think they're called Tenterfield terriers now though) called Nellie who was really fast and even won a race at a charity dog show thing. We thought she would have been good at flyball, but sadly a snake got her a few years ago :cool:

We're going to do obedience classes until gold level and then might supplement his classes with a trainer that we know in Braidwood but I doubt we'll go obedience trialling ... I suspect OH, Elbie and I would find it a bit boring just trekking around a field doing sits, drops and dumb bell throwing. Also, I'm unco - knowing my luck, I'd hit and kill a judge. :p

Hee!