Allergy / Skin Issue / Flea Allergy?

[Winterpaws]

Just putting this out to see what other people think and what your experiences are.

Charlie our double coated boy (chipped as a malamute but looks more biscuit samoyed) has a skin issue and I have no idea what is going on. He is 7 years old and we have had him since he was 6 months old and we have never had an issue with him or his skin.

It started about 2 months ago. He had what I thought was a hot spot so we went to the vet. Vet said it wasn't and that he had a flea (yes one) and that it was a flea allergy. So we started him on comfortis and he was on a course of steroids for 2 weeks. It seemed to get better.

In the last week or so he has been chewing at his coat again and his skin looks bright red when you part the coat. None of the other animals are showing any issues that it might be fleas and he has had 3 lots of comfortis over the last 8 weeks. If it is a flea (and I can't see any) then comfortis doesn't work as he only had some on Monday

The vet did some blood tests on Friday as we thought he might have a thyroid issue but they have come back normal and so he thinks it is a flea allergy. His reccomendation is that he will need to go back on steroids. I am a bit loath to put him back on the steroids as they really messed him up when he was on them.

I'm just not sure what to think. He was groomed about two weeks ago and the groomer also saw no evidence of fleas??

Should I give him something else as well as comfortis? Any thoughts on something we could try instead of steroids or how best to manage a dog on steroids.

[Erny]

Well, I can give no guarantees but I can tell you that I am happy with the 'stance' I took when faced with a dog covered in several hundred itchy hives (amongst other issues) and vets who wanted to go the antibiotic/cortisone route. Rightly or wrongly - it was my 'punt' ..., I adopted the natural route and wanted to see what I could manage whilst I continued to work on what the cause of my dog's skin issues were. WP, you've probably heard me sprouting the wonders of Calendula Tea baths/washes and how they kept the itchy skin (and potential secondary skin infections) at bay.

I won't say anything to jinx myself (ie my dog) but I can't help but think I've made headway (with A LOT of ups and downs along the way and potentially still in front of us) but I have managed to stay well clear of cortisone and antibiotics with my admittedly only semi-educated approach.

So, with all of that being said and knowing that I'm not advising you (as I can't), I'd try the Calendula Tea. This might at least buy you some extra time to see if you can work out the REASON for the skin issue and be able to deal with that without turning to steroids.

Oh ..... and I don't trust the thyroid testing our Aussie labs do. IMO they aren't thorough enough and rely on the thyroid tissue being destroyed by 70%. Which means that a negative result doesn't necessarily mean that thyroid is not an issue - just means that it hasn't gone on long enough for it to show up in our thyroid results.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Erny

[Staranais]

Yes, there's nothing at all wrong with trying the natural route first (so long as the dog isn't in misery, in which case steroids can bring great relief). I wouldn't be keen for my dog to be on long term steroids either, unless it was necessary.

About the flea allergy, once a dog is sensitised to the flea saliva, even one flea bite can cause a massive reaction. So it's quite possible that the dog is reacting to a flea bite allergy without you seeing fleas on the dog, especially since this is the most common canine allergy. Have you flea bombed your entire house. & thoroughly decontaminated his bedding, to make sure there are no fleas anywhere?

The idea with flea bite allergy is, to my knowledge, to get rid of all the fleas & give a short course of steroids to break the cycle of itching & scratching. Shouldn't need long term steroids so long as you can completely control the fleas.

& how did the vet determine that this was flea allergy dermatitis? To my knowledge they can normally have a pretty good guess due to the appearance/distribution of lesions on the dog (on the lower back, thighs, belly), plus the history, but you can't know for sure until either the dog responds to flea control or you do intradermal testing.

[stormie]

WP's where are the main itchy areas?

If it is FAD all it takes is one flea bite to cause a big reaction which can take a long time to go away.

And I guess there's also the possibility that if he could have developed a flea allergy that he could also have developed an environmental allergy too.

Cortisone isn't the greatest, but sometimes they can just get skin inflammation from a reaction to something which unless treated, gets worse. So a simple short course of cortisone can break the cycle. Did the problem completely go away with the last course? It may be that it just wasn't long enough so there was still some inflammation which then got worse again after the cortisone.

If it's an all over problem, reality is nothing is going to offer the instant relief that cortisone will. I guess that's why it's used so often because it really is quite often, the only thing that works.

If it's just a more localised area you could use Cortavance Spray which is great because the cortisone isn't absorbed into the blood stream. But obviously if it's an all over problem this isn't going to be very suitable.

I would do an antihistamine trial to see if you can find one that gives some relief and also look at increasing Omegas in the diet to benefit the skin. Alpha Kerri Oil is great for sore inflamed skin and helps to create a bit of a skin barrier too.

Also try the Calendula Tea like Erny suggested - seems a lot o people have success with that.

What a lot of people forget is that skin is an organ. A dog with chronic skin problems (ie long term inflammation) that aren't treated can actually be fatal. Just like having a liver that is infected and inflamed for a long period can be too. Obviously this isn't something that you'd need to worry about, but it's another reason why cortisone and AB's have their place. Unfortunately, I know of a dog who's owners are not treating his chronic allergies and he's dying.

[Winterpaws]

Well, I can give no guarantees but I can tell you that I am happy with the 'stance' I took when faced with a dog covered in several hundred itchy hives (amongst other issues) and vets who wanted to go the antibiotic/cortisone route. Rightly or wrongly - it was my 'punt' ..., I adopted the natural route and wanted to see what I could manage whilst I continued to work on what the cause of my dog's skin issues were. WP, you've probably heard me sprouting the wonders of Calendula Tea baths/washes and how they kept the itchy skin (and potential secondary skin infections) at bay.

I won't say anything to jinx myself (ie my dog) but I can't help but think I've made headway (with A LOT of ups and downs along the way and potentially still in front of us) but I have managed to stay well clear of cortisone and antibiotics with my admittedly only semi-educated approach.

So, with all of that being said and knowing that I'm not advising you (as I can't), I'd try the Calendula Tea. This might at least buy you some extra time to see if you can work out the REASON for the skin issue and be able to deal with that without turning to steroids.

Oh ..... and I don't trust the thyroid testing our Aussie labs do. IMO they aren't thorough enough and rely on the thyroid tissue being destroyed by 70%. Which means that a negative result doesn't necessarily mean that thyroid is not an issue - just means that it hasn't gone on long enough for it to show up in our thyroid results.

Erny do you give Calendula orally or as a rinse over the coat? Did you just buy from the health food store?

Yes, there's nothing at all wrong with trying the natural route first (so long as the dog isn't in misery, in which case steroids can bring great relief). I wouldn't be keen for my dog to be on long term steroids either, unless it was necessary.

About the flea allergy, once a dog is sensitised to the flea saliva, even one flea bite can cause a massive reaction. So it's quite possible that the dog is reacting to a flea bite allergy without you seeing fleas on the dog, especially since this is the most common canine allergy. Have you flea bombed your entire house. & thoroughly decontaminated his bedding, to make sure there are no fleas anywhere?

The idea with flea bite allergy is, to my knowledge, to get rid of all the fleas & give a short course of steroids to break the cycle of itching & scratching. Shouldn't need long term steroids so long as you can completely control the fleas.

& how did the vet determine that this was flea allergy dermatitis? To my knowledge they can normally have a pretty good guess due to the appearance/distribution of lesions on the dog (on the lower back, thighs, belly), plus the history, but you can't know for sure until either the dog responds to flea control or you do intradermal testing.

I think flea allergy dermatitis seems to most logical after ruling out everything else. They did take a tissue sample to test and they also took some bloods. He was showing classic symptoms of a thyroid issue and we were certain tests would come back this was the issue.

He's never had an issue with his skin in the entire time I have had him and now all of a sudden he is chewing his coat out

WP's where are the main itchy areas?

If it is FAD all it takes is one flea bite to cause a big reaction which can take a long time to go away.

And I guess there's also the possibility that if he could have developed a flea allergy that he could also have developed an environmental allergy too.

Cortisone isn't the greatest, but sometimes they can just get skin inflammation from a reaction to something which unless treated, gets worse. So a simple short course of cortisone can break the cycle. Did the problem completely go away with the last course? It may be that it just wasn't long enough so there was still some inflammation which then got worse again after the cortisone.

If it's an all over problem, reality is nothing is going to offer the instant relief that cortisone will. I guess that's why it's used so often because it really is quite often, the only thing that works.

If it's just a more localised area you could use Cortavance Spray which is great because the cortisone isn't absorbed into the blood stream. But obviously if it's an all over problem this isn't going to be very suitable.

I would do an antihistamine trial to see if you can find one that gives some relief and also look at increasing Omegas in the diet to benefit the skin. Alpha Kerri Oil is great for sore inflamed skin and helps to create a bit of a skin barrier too.

Also try the Calendula Tea like Erny suggested - seems a lot o people have success with that.

What a lot of people forget is that skin is an organ. A dog with chronic skin problems (ie long term inflammation) that aren't treated can actually be fatal. Just like having a liver that is infected and inflamed for a long period can be too. Obviously this isn't something that you'd need to worry about, but it's another reason why cortisone and AB's have their place. Unfortunately, I know of a dog who's owners are not treating his chronic allergies and he's dying.

So what are the chances of him still having a flea when there is no sign of the other two dogs or 3 cats having any issue with fleas. Can I try giving him something else along with the comfortis every 4 weeks or should comfortis be enough to work? He's had 3 lots of comfortis over 8 weeks

I did find little red dots on his stomach like something had bitten him - in between his legs along side penis. He is biting all down his sides and leaving bit red sores. The vet said he saw no signs of fleas when he had him under the anaesthetic, neither did the groomer who did him a week earlier.

When this start he was on steroids for two weeks but they really messed around with him. He was drinking a heck of a lot of water and got really bloated

eta - which antihistamines should I try first? He is 24.7kg

Edited September 27, 2010 by Winterpaws

[BMAK]

my dog had something similar,

she has really bad flea allergy and everytime we took her to the property she got riddled touch wood we dont have any fleas in our environment here at home and our dogs dont get them unless they go to parks beaches etc where the environment is where multiple dogs go so they bring the fleas to the environment.

anyways she gets a capstar to kill all fleas then revolution she was also on a steroid type tablet for 3 weeks that slowly weened her off them but normally when its around the tail area its a sure sign its fleas so it may be your environment you have to treat first, but maybe your dog has gotten a reaction and is sentitive to grass or something where he will overact and it becomes a natural behaviour to keep stratching till its red raw food allergy maybe but a good aloveen bath and cond and see the reaction could have itchy skin?

[Erny]

Erny do you give Calendula orally or as a rinse over the coat? Did you just buy from the health food store?

Rinse over the coat. Allow it to dry on the coat (ie don't rinse off). I think this is worth trying first as IME if it is going to work to ease the itch and redness you should see signs of improvement generally in 24 - 48 hours. Not a long time to wait to see if it is the right management treatment to use, before you go to using chemicals of any kind.

BTW - Calendula can be taken orally - it has good qualities.

I purchase mine from my local Health Food Store. A 50g packet will set you back about $8.20. Although the price varies depending on the brand (and, I find, the prettiness of the packaging).

ETA: When my boy has been really bad (skin wise) I tackled the first application (after I did a 'spot' application to make sure it wouldn't worsen the condition) by running some warm to hot water in the bath tub. About 3 inches deep. I put a fistful (scientific measurement ) of the calendula in the toe of a cut down stocking and tied it off. I left this floating/soaking in the hot bathwater. When the bath water had cooled to tepid (if the weather is warm/hot, cool is ok) and then put my dog in the bath tub. I used the stocking with the soaked calendula as a sponge (of sorts) to soak his coat and skin all over. The water in the tub had of course been infused and was the brewed calendula tea.

A towel dry off and one clean, fresh smelling and far less itchy and more comfortable dog, in my case.

Edited September 27, 2010 by Erny

[Winterpaws]

Erny do you give Calendula orally or as a rinse over the coat? Did you just buy from the health food store?

Rinse over the coat. Allow it to dry on the coat (ie don't rinse off). I think this is worth trying first as IME if it is going to work to ease the itch and redness you should see signs of improvement generally in 24 - 48 hours. Not a long time to wait to see if it is the right management treatment to use, before you go to using chemicals of any kind.

BTW - Calendula can be taken orally - it has good qualities.

I purchase mine from my local Health Food Store. A 50g packet will set you back about $8.20. Although the price varies depending on the brand (and, I find, the prettiness of the packaging).

ETA: When my boy has been really bad (skin wise) I tackled the first application (after I did a 'spot' application to make sure it wouldn't worsen the condition) by running some warm to hot water in the bath tub. About 3 inches deep. I put a fistful (scientific measurement ) of the calendula in the toe of a cut down stocking and tied it off. I left this floating/soaking in the hot bathwater. When the bath water had cooled to tepid (if the weather is warm/hot, cool is ok) and then put my dog in the bath tub. I used the stocking with the soaked calendula as a sponge (of sorts) to soak his coat and skin all over. The water in the tub had of course been infused and was the brewed calendula tea.

A towel dry off and one clean, fresh smelling and far less itchy and more comfortable dog, in my case.

I would need to wait for a warm day as we have a thick double coat which is really difficult to dry!!!!! But I might try a spot application?

I went out to the post office at lunch and put dogs outside - came home and Charlie had two huge chew marks and when I turned him over his whole grin area was covered in an angry red rash.

Went back to vets and he is adamant we need to try steroids. He gave me Microlone and said one 20mg tablet twoce daily for ten days. The poor dog is going to do nothing but drink water and pee if he has that much cortisone

[Erny]

Went back to vets and he is adamant we need to try steroids. He gave me Microlone and said one 20mg tablet twoce daily for ten days. The poor dog is going to do nothing but drink water and pee if he has that much cortisone

I am certainly in no position to stand on any Vet's toes when it comes to advice to someone else for someone else's dog.

All I can say is that my boy (with his at least 500+ hives, conservatively speaking) had improved out of sight inside 24 hours after first application of the Calendula.

Edited September 27, 2010 by Erny

[stormie]

That's a pretty high dose for a relatively long time. Are you to wean him down with that dose at all? 2mg/kg is more like an immune suppressant dose and not a dose we would really ever use for skin problems! We would generally start at about 1mg/kg as the highest for really bad skin.

We generally start at the higher dose for around 5-7 days then reduce the dose for 5-7 days then reduce again.

Orbit (60kg) just gets one 20mg Macrolone every second day and that keeps him under control. He gets a bit thirsty on that dose (0.3mg/kg) so I can imagine what being on almost 2mg/kg would be like!

Is he itchy along his back/ tail base at all? The fact it's under his belly sounds like it could also be more of a contact thing - where his skin comes into contact more due to less hair coverage. But obviously your vet has seen him in person so I wouldn't want to suggest they were wrong etc.

I would start with Phenergan first - the older generation antihistamines seem to have the most success. The dose is 1mg/kg twice a day, which is awesome for you cause they come in 25mg tablets. So just start him on 1 tablet twice a day.

Edited September 27, 2010 by stormie

[Winterpaws]

That's a pretty high dose for a relatively long time. Are you to wean him down with that dose at all?

We generally start a higher dose for around 5-7 days then reduce the dose for 5-7 days then reduce again.

Orbit (60kg) just gets one 20mg Macrolone every second day and that keeps him under control. He gets a bit thirsty on that dose (0.3mg/kg) so I can imagine what being on almost 2mg/kg would be like!

Is he itchy along his back/ tail base at all? The fact it's under his belly sounds like it could also be more of a contact thing - where his skin comes into contact more due to less hair coverage. But obviously your vet has seen him in person so I wouldn't want to suggest they were wrong etc.

I would start with Phenergan first - the older generation antihistamines seem to have the most success. The dose is 1mg/kg twice a day, which is awesome for you cause they come in 25mg tablets. So just start him on 1 tablet twice a day.

Thanks Stormie. I will keep the cortisone in my box of tricks for now.

Re dosage he said that for 10 days and then we would see what response we had. I only realised how large a dose it was when I saw the old bottle of cortisone that he had 8 weeks ago when he first saw a vet (different vet)

No not itchy along back and base of tail - it is all confined to his sides from the ribs down towards his hip and then all over his groin. He actually doesn't really go on the grass much either - he either lays on concrete or the wooden outdoor table . His outdoor bed is a trampoline bed that is that flea free material and he doesn't use kennels. But the beds in the kennels are flea free as well (Snooza d1000's)

He used the word atopy? I'm just baffled how this has started and he has lived here since he was 6 months old without any issues. Mind you the only difference I can think of is that the garden beds do really really need a weeding - but they are fenced off and he shouldn't be able to get to them

Erny I will try calendula as well. It will be interesting trying to get his coat dry

[Erny]

Erny I will try calendula as well. It will be interesting trying to get his coat dry

Yeah - In that I have the advantage of a fine coated dog. Easy to wet up the skin and doesn't take long to dry. Perhaps try to use a flannel saturated in it and plug away at soaking to the skin that way. Once well and truly soaked, a bit of a rub with a towel to take up the excess, but leave what you can on the skin to air dry. If you have the Calendula in your possession, you could try it now and see if this eases the itching immediately enough to not even need the antihistamine. This is how it worked for me. The antihistamines are still in the cupboard (purchased as a back-up plan) and I've not had to administer them to Mandela.

Also, by trying one thing at a time you'll be knowing what thing worked. I know that when Mandela was at his worst all I wanted to do was give him all and anything, just to take the discomfort away.

Edited September 27, 2010 by Erny

[Flaves]

Could an antihistamine help?

Maybe see if you can do a short course of cortisone, along with the antis

This helped with Mitchi when she had an allergic reaction

Good luck with whatever path you choose

[stormie]

Flea allergy seems to commonly cause issues around the back end, base of tail etc. Again, I'm not a vet but would have thought that the areas you mention sound more like some sort of contact problem.

Atopy would be a major bummer and unfortunately it can come on at any age.

I would still go with the Cortisone, but just at half the dose they've recommended.

[jemappelle]

My Cav girl has Macrolone for allergies. I only give it to her when she is bad and she has a 5 mg tablet (she weighs about 6.5 kg) twice a day for 3 days, then once a day for 3 days and then on to every second day. I think the longest I have had to give it to her is for 10 days.

However she doesn't sound anywhere near as bad as your boy WP.

[Mas1981]

My dog has been really itchy around his back end - legs, tail and groin area. We know he has atopic dermatitis as he has had tests etc but he has never been this itchy before. My derm also thinks that he could have been bitten by a flea but this has been going on for nearly 4 weeks now and comfortis and Permoxin spray are not helping, neither are the anti-histamines. He is on a low dose of Prednisolone now, just 5mg a day as he also drinks buckets of water if we even go up to 10mg and he is nearly 35Kg's..... If your dog continues to battle I would go see a dermatologist, they are very good and have helped my dog heaps.

BTW I tried all the natural stuff as I much prefer it over conventional medicines etc but nothing I did brought my dog any relief and I cant bear to watch the poor thing suffer.

Edited September 28, 2010 by Mas1981

[Flaves]

zinc tabs can also help

[Erny]

How are things going, WinterPaws?