Training Suggestions For Send Away & Redirection Exercise?

[Staranais]

I am very interested in hearing how people would train this working trials exercise. I've heard a couple of methods that triallers use, but they all seem fairly haphazard, and I much prefer to have a structured & logical approach to training. It's a few years ahead of us, but I like to think these things through in advance.

So, this is the exercise - the send away & redirection exercise. The trial takes place in a field. The exercise starts with a send away. The dog is sent away is 40 - 50 m, to an area marked with natural markers (i.e., ones the dog won't notice), and the handler stops the dog however they like (most people drop the dog). That's just a typical send away, ideally the dog must go faster than a walk, without looking back, etc. Then on the judge's command, the owner must then redirect the dog to the left or the right (not coming forwards or going backwards excessively) at least 18m, and then stop the dog again.

I can do the send away bit, have taught that before, no biggie. However, the redirection confuses me - turning the dog when it is 50m away & sending it away to an (unmarked!) left or right target seems like a big ask.

I have seen some people trial where they gave "left" and "right" commands. However, my old dog (and I suspect my current dog will be the same) very much liked to spin & face me when I dropped them, to watch for further commands. So, "left" would therefore be the dog's left as it faced me, or the dog's left as it was trotting out? Seems too confusing to me.

I think I would prefer to avoid that confusion by relying on hand signals to direct the dog towards the left or right after dropping them, but then I am still a little confused how to structure the exercise from the beginning, so as the dog knows that I would like it to go out 90 degrees from its original direction of travel?

Or would you insist that the dog remained facing away when it dropped, so that the left & right commands made sense to the dog?

How would you all teach this exercise? Am interested in any & all suggestions.

[Yesmaam]

I am very interested in hearing how people would train this working trials exercise. I've heard a couple of methods that triallers use, but they all seem fairly haphazard, and I much prefer to have a structured & logical approach to training. It's a few years ahead of us, but I like to think these things through in advance.

So, this is the exercise - the send away & redirection exercise. The trial takes place in a field. The exercise starts with a send away. The dog is sent away is 40 - 50 m, to an area marked with natural markers (i.e., ones the dog won't notice), and the handler stops the dog however they like (most people drop the dog). That's just a typical send away, ideally the dog must go faster than a walk, without looking back, etc. Then on the judge's command, the owner must then redirect the dog to the left or the right (not coming forwards or going backwards excessively) at least 18m, and then stop the dog again.

I can do the send away bit, have taught that before, no biggie. However, the redirection confuses me - turning the dog when it is 50m away & sending it away to an (unmarked!) left or right target seems like a big ask.

I have seen some people trial where they gave "left" and "right" commands. However, my old dog (and I suspect my current dog will be the same) very much liked to spin & face me when I dropped them, to watch for further commands. So, "left" would therefore be the dog's left as it faced me, or the dog's left as it was trotting out? Seems too confusing to me.

I think I would prefer to avoid that confusion by relying on hand signals to direct the dog towards the left or right after dropping them, but then I am still a little confused how to structure the exercise from the beginning, so as the dog knows that I would like it to go out 90 degrees from its original direction of travel?

Or would you insist that the dog remained facing away when it dropped, so that the left & right commands made sense to the dog?

How would you all teach this exercise? Am interested in any & all suggestions.

Is the direction at the judges discretion? ie: you would have to teach both directions to be able to send the dog either way the judge decided? And, do you loose points if the dog spins to face you like you see in IPO trials?

[Staranais]

Is the direction at the judges discretion? ie: you would have to teach both directions to be able to send the dog either way the judge decided? And, do you loose points if the dog spins to face you like you see in IPO trials?

Yes, the judge tells you which direction to go once your dog is already out there, so you need to teach both.

You don't lose any points if the dog spins to face you after the send away (I didn't realise you did in IPO either, that's interesting! Is it a big deduction in IPO?)

[Aidan3]

Targets that don't exist begin as targets that do exist, then you fade them. So you might begin with a towel on the ground, if your dog knows "go to mat" or "crate" it's pretty easy to get them to go to a towel and down. Then you fold the towel in half, then start cutting it down.

Directions can be done similarly. You have three targets in a line, send the dog to the middle target, hit the middle target, stop and face you, then follow your hand signal to one or the other. Begin in close range, teach the concepts, then tidy up the cues, add distance, fade the targets, add more distance.

If you are very lucky (like me when I taught this to my GSD), your dog will generalise very quickly and you will be able to fade the target very quickly without issues (in fact I didn't fade the target, I just began cueing her early). I would imagine a Mal would solve this little problem fairly easily also.

[Yesmaam]

Is the direction at the judges discretion? ie: you would have to teach both directions to be able to send the dog either way the judge decided? And, do you loose points if the dog spins to face you like you see in IPO trials?

Yes, the judge tells you which direction to go once your dog is already out there, so you need to teach both.

You don't lose any points if the dog spins to face you after the send away (I didn't realise you did in IPO either, that's interesting! Is it a big deduction in IPO?)

Sorry, thats not what I meant. I was just saying how you see dogs spin in IPO.

[bedazzledx2]

The retrieving people teach this with flags. Dog goes out in a straight line turns and sits and is redirected on hand signal. Someone who does competition retrieving could help you with this. I taught it years ago as a trick with my BC and three boxes....go out to a PVC Box like UD obedience and re-direct to another one...I guess its all the same concept...you fade the target.

I am very interested in hearing how people would train this working trials exercise. I've heard a couple of methods that triallers use, but they all seem fairly haphazard, and I much prefer to have a structured & logical approach to training. It's a few years ahead of us, but I like to think these things through in advance.

So, this is the exercise - the send away & redirection exercise. The trial takes place in a field. The exercise starts with a send away. The dog is sent away is 40 - 50 m, to an area marked with natural markers (i.e., ones the dog won't notice), and the handler stops the dog however they like (most people drop the dog). That's just a typical send away, ideally the dog must go faster than a walk, without looking back, etc. Then on the judge's command, the owner must then redirect the dog to the left or the right (not coming forwards or going backwards excessively) at least 18m, and then stop the dog again.

I can do the send away bit, have taught that before, no biggie. However, the redirection confuses me - turning the dog when it is 50m away & sending it away to an (unmarked!) left or right target seems like a big ask.

I have seen some people trial where they gave "left" and "right" commands. However, my old dog (and I suspect my current dog will be the same) very much liked to spin & face me when I dropped them, to watch for further commands. So, "left" would therefore be the dog's left as it faced me, or the dog's left as it was trotting out? Seems too confusing to me.

I think I would prefer to avoid that confusion by relying on hand signals to direct the dog towards the left or right after dropping them, but then I am still a little confused how to structure the exercise from the beginning, so as the dog knows that I would like it to go out 90 degrees from its original direction of travel?

Or would you insist that the dog remained facing away when it dropped, so that the left & right commands made sense to the dog?

How would you all teach this exercise? Am interested in any & all suggestions.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

What the others said by starting with targets

This guy does it with balls on sticks for targets, click and treating

This one is the first in a series of step by step articles on how to do it.

http://www.clickandtreat.com/Clicker_Train...GG003/ff004.htm

click on the "next article" link at the bottom of the page to get to the next step in the sequence etc.

I haven't tried it however. Must get me some fibreglass tent poles and pratice golf balls or something.

[Staranais]

Thanks guys, those are some great ideas to think about. I don't currently teach a send out with a target for a couple of reasons, so these would be pretty different to what I've done before, will have to think it through before I decide whether to give it a go.

[JulesP]

With this in herding and agility the way I have been taught is to lure the behaviour in some way and then start naming it. So if you didn't want to send the dog to a target you could chuck something to the left and send the dog after that and name it left.

Herding I have just used body position to encourage the direction. Agility I stood behind the dog and used treats to get the dog to turn in that direction.

It is the dog's left normally btw. So if the dog happened to spin and face you then you would need to send him right to get movement to your left.

The US herding instructor I went to said she had seen people use a toy or something on a long pole to lure the directions.

[sas]

Targets that don't exist begin as targets that do exist, then you fade them. So you might begin with a towel on the ground, if your dog knows "go to mat" or "crate" it's pretty easy to get them to go to a towel and down. Then you fold the towel in half, then start cutting it down.

Directions can be done similarly. You have three targets in a line, send the dog to the middle target, hit the middle target, stop and face you, then follow your hand signal to one or the other. Begin in close range, teach the concepts, then tidy up the cues, add distance, fade the targets, add more distance.

If you are very lucky (like me when I taught this to my GSD), your dog will generalise very quickly and you will be able to fade the target very quickly without issues (in fact I didn't fade the target, I just began cueing her early). I would imagine a Mal would solve this little problem fairly easily also.

We use this method at training, the trainer takes their leads, the dog is watching, trainer walks out drops the lead and you send the dog which will typically go to the lead.

Then we phase out the trainer and do it ourselves and then phase that out.

[Staranais]

With this in herding and agility the way I have been taught is to lure the behaviour in some way and then start naming it. So if you didn't want to send the dog to a target you could chuck something to the left and send the dog after that and name it left.

Herding I have just used body position to encourage the direction. Agility I stood behind the dog and used treats to get the dog to turn in that direction.

It is the dog's left normally btw. So if the dog happened to spin and face you then you would need to send him right to get movement to your left.

With the herding I've seen though, the left command has actually been a clockwise command (circle to the left/clockwise around the stock). Which is a little different to what I'm after.I've never seen someone send a dog out trotting on a straight line to its left, does that ever happen?

Has anyone got any links to any good competition retrieving intro site? I've had a google, but can't find much on redirections in retrieving yet. Is it called something else in that sport?

Thanks!

[JulesP]

In herding they are supposed to move off 'square' before circling. If the dog has a lot of distance, which it should have, then they will be doing a fairly straight line for a while.

The principal to teach would be the same. Make the dog go in the direction and then name it. I thought you wanted different ideas

[Kavik]

How did you teach your send away? Maybe you can modify how you taught that (send away from you) to work for send left and right?

I can see what Jules means. One way I taught send was to wait til dog looking forward and throw toy forward while giving send command, then once they get the idea, give send command and only throw toy once they move.

You could do the same for left and right by throwing left and right(probably good to decide whether the dog facing you or away from you - I wouldn't think it matters except for consistency in command - I would practice how you think the dog will finish the send away) and gradually increase the distance from you before you send left or right. You could also have a hidden reward (I know some train send aways that way - with a toy reward hidden a certain distance away that they are sent to.)

[beagie]

I am very interested in hearing how people would train this working trials exercise. I've heard a couple of methods that triallers use, but they all seem fairly haphazard, and I much prefer to have a structured & logical approach to training. It's a few years ahead of us, but I like to think these things through in advance. ;)

So, this is the exercise - the send away & redirection exercise. The trial takes place in a field. The exercise starts with a send away. The dog is sent away is 40 - 50 m, to an area marked with natural markers (i.e., ones the dog won't notice), and the handler stops the dog however they like (most people drop the dog). That's just a typical send away, ideally the dog must go faster than a walk, without looking back, etc. Then on the judge's command, the owner must then redirect the dog to the left or the right (not coming forwards or going backwards excessively) at least 18m, and then stop the dog again.

I can do the send away bit, have taught that before, no biggie. However, the redirection confuses me - turning the dog when it is 50m away & sending it away to an (unmarked!) left or right target seems like a big ask.

I have seen some people trial where they gave "left" and "right" commands. However, my old dog (and I suspect my current dog will be the same) very much liked to spin & face me when I dropped them, to watch for further commands. So, "left" would therefore be the dog's left as it faced me, or the dog's left as it was trotting out? Seems too confusing to me.

I think I would prefer to avoid that confusion by relying on hand signals to direct the dog towards the left or right after dropping them, but then I am still a little confused how to structure the exercise from the beginning, so as the dog knows that I would like it to go out 90 degrees from its original direction of travel?

Or would you insist that the dog remained facing away when it dropped, so that the left & right commands made sense to the dog?

How would you all teach this exercise? Am interested in any & all suggestions.

I taught this to my dog when doing retrieving, and yes the water dogs i.e. Labs do run straight, HPR's quarter. I have seen some excellent Labs work on

whistle only a different toot for each thing, mostly the Eastern States retrieving dogs work with whistle. Going on I used a game, which a few people do

by using witches hats, I sent my dog to the first witches hat, he picked up a dumbell, sent him to the next hat he dropped the dumbell in a box

sat facing me, I then indicated to him to pick the dumbell up and return to the third witches hat, drop dumbell then return to me standing in the

middle, how did I acomplish this by going with the dog in the first place and giving him terms to work with, it was relatively easy to teach in fact

I am now teaching it to mu pup who is not a gun dog. Retrieving people use the back command quite a lot, most dogs will go a certain distance

when told to, if you want to increase the distance you then need to do it with target work, they mostly always swing around and face you on

reaching their target or distance. However I have seen an excellent Lab work with distance commands and not spin around, after all sheep dogs

on properties generaly work this way. Is this part of GSD training. Beagie

[Staranais]

I thought you wanted different ideas

I do. It wasn't a criticism, I just wanted to check we were talking about the same thing.

Kavik, I have previously taught the send away with the toy at the edge of the field where I am doing obedience etc. i.e. I will be heeling the dog for a few steps, the dog knows the toy is at the edge of the field. When the dog is a working a few meters away from the toy, I release to the toy as a reward (remote reward), then she brings it to me to play with it. Then just gradually add distance. Fast forward a few weeks, and the dog is starting to anticipate the reward & when released after the heeling will run to the edge of the field where I point to get the toy, even if she hasn't seen me place the toy there, she knows it is always at the edge of the field where I point. Toy is always at the edge of the field so the dog doesn't slow down & start searching for it before I drop her as you so often see in competition, she will run to the edge of the field before she starts searching & casting around.

You can then add the drop every so often, drop the dog & then immediately release the dog again to the toy. Dog by this stage already has a DOR which is similar, and also she knows I won't play with her if she doesn't drop (so blowing me off & getting the toy is pointless), so that part comes pretty easy. Haven't taught it to my current girl yet though, but worked for my last dog pretty well, so will probably use this method again if I have no reason not to. ;)

Beagie, that's interesting, how did you go about teaching it though?

[Nekhbet]

there is a fabulous DVD for the sendaway by Ivan Balabanov, he has made a series of training videos and they're a great help

see if you can get a hold of it, if you cannot I might be able to make you a copy and post it to you

[Staranais]

there is a fabulous DVD for the sendaway by Ivan Balabanov, he has made a series of training videos and they're a great help

see if you can get a hold of it, if you cannot I might be able to make you a copy and post it to you

Got all four already, but thanks very much for the offer. And they are very good (well, I wasn't that keen on the retrieve one, but I loved all the others).

I do have the send away nailed. It's modifying it to include the redirection that has me a little stumped. Luckily I won't even need to think about teaching it for a few years - plenty of time to think & research.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I wonder if you could get it by free shaping.

Ie send the dog out and then click for any direction change, work on getting that repeated maybe with a bridge word or signal, and then you've got it reliably, give it a cue word or signal.

Ie get the dog to offer something up and reward that.