Working/working Line Dogs As Pets

[MolassesLass]

In BCs I believe the majority of pet owners who end up with a non-ANKC dog, do so because those breeders don't give a hoot who gets a dog. And some because they thing a smooth coat is less mess than a rough coat. I like my breed to look like it was originally.

[Jed]

Jed, in most cases dogs were working long before they ever graced a show ring.

If anyone's lost the plot, its not the working line folk IMO. Some have simply stayed true to type. Some bench line dogs are so exaggerated - more coat, more loose skin, more height, less height, longer ears, more angles and if anyone ever thought about what the dog was bred to do, they'd toss the lot and start over with working dogs.

Yes, a dog that can work and win in the show ring might be the ideal, but the dog that has lost the form needed to work is not the direction we should be headed. Breed standards were developed for many breeds to describe the form that could perform a function.

Some of the dogs in the ring today are so far from their original form that its tragic. So few are shown in any sort of 'working condition' either.

No wonder folk want 'working line' dogs in some breeds. Temperament has gone down the toilet in more than a couple too.

I must have become totally incoherent, or unintelligible.

I am well aware that most breeds were working long before there were shows. Often centuries before. Refer to the Lithuanian Goat Catching Retriever.

I am sorry you misunderstood my entire post.

Maybe I need a cognition check.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Jed

[noisymina]

I find it amusing that my "show line" Dobe was a working cattle dog before she came here.

She was very hyperactive at first and I was

Great experience learning how to calm her and turn her around into what we wanted.

She also is very alert and does defend. I origianlly went into Dobes for a number of reasons. I never planned on actually training them for defence - hoping the reputation would put off any intruders. BUT both the well bred Dobes we've had HAVE amazed me with an inbuilt protection instinct. They are/have been awesome.

With the right breed in the right home, I do think it works.

I also think that a lot of those photos show the same breed of dogs - some are certainly in better condition than others. Surely those in work are fitter, healthier, leaner etc - which would account for a fair amouint of the visible difference one sees?

Kaisie, for example, did put a fair bit on around the chest after a while - being less active than she was before. We went through two sizes of car harness! And then gave up. Her weight, however, has remained much the same.

Edited September 24, 2010 by noisymina

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

To get the working lines and show lines back together, you'd have to change the average dog (pretty) show to include a few exercises that demonstrated the working ability appropriate for that breed as well as the gait and conformation checks. And if I was setting it up, I think you'd have to have a huge variety of exercises available to choose from and then choose a few different ones for each show.

Eg BC would have to round up some sheep and then do the pretty thing in the ring. If BC couldn't herd sheep or attacked them it's not a proper BC... but it could still be a nice pet or agility dog.

As long as working ability is not tested in the show ring - there will be split lines.

Not sure what happens when the nature of the work changes eg agility isn't really dog work historically speaking.

[PAX]

Eg BC would have to round up some sheep and then do the pretty thing in the ring. If BC couldn't herd sheep or attacked them it's not a proper BC... but it could still be a nice pet or agility dog.

I hope my BC's never attack, sure that's not a breed instinct.

[Esky the husky]

Mrs Rusty Bucket was saying that if the BC attacked the sheep then it wouldn't be a BC

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

What Esky said.

Attacking sheep should not be part of BC temperment - but I'm not sure they test that in BC Shows. So it could still win a show competition or be a great agility dog but it would be useless as a sheep herder (what the BC was originally bred to do).

I'm trying to give an example of how differences develop between working and show lines.

Ie you have a pretty athletic black and white dog that looks like a bc but can't safely work sheep - is it still a border collie? Is it ok to breed from it if it's great at agility (or some other dog sport or doggy task). Do you still call it a border collie?

I don't think there is a black and white answer to these kinds of questions, but they're worth thinking about and discussing.

My main point is that shows which are usually designed to pick the best dogs for breeding, should ideally test and take into account the abilities the dog was originally bred for. At the moment - as far as I know - the standard breed shows do not do this. They will disqualify a dog for bad temperment like biting a judge - but is herding instinct tested or required? You probably wouldn't want to test things like dog fighting ability and maybe not use real or live ducks for hunting/retreiving in breed shows. But I think some of the schutzen hound stuff would be a fair test of dogs bred to be guard dogs. Ie using padded up humans or dummies. I don't know where you'd draw the line when using dogs for hunting does usually involve killing some live critter. I guess it depends on how acceptable this is where the dog show is held. Us city folk sure have gotten soft in the last 40 years or so. If they could, would the RSPCA ban predators hunting live creatures in the wild?

And then to get really controversial - is it ok to try to breed for a particular temperment or ability by mixing breeds. This is how quite a few of today's dog breeds like ACD came to be. Is it more valid if it was done 150 years ago than if it was done in the last 10 years? If a particular family line of dogs has some sort of fault, is it ok to outcross with another breed to try to correct this? Again this used to be an ok thing to do but seems to be bad now.

Note - my dog is a desexed bitsa and I'm not into breeding or showing. But I will probably do competition dog sports. If she will ever go round without a bribe in sight.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I don't know where you'd draw the line when using dogs for hunting does usually involve killing some live critter. I guess it depends on how acceptable this is where the dog show is held. Us city folk sure have gotten soft in the last 40 years or so. If they could, would the RSPCA ban predators hunting live creatures in the wild?

It's not just the hunting part that you can test tho'. I think there are some things we could do right now that would improve things using our existing tests. For example, I think Dalmatians, sledding breeds and most of the sighthounds should have to pass the endurance test to earn their Ch title. Perhaps others too. That would certainly sort out some of the iffy conformation we have now in Salukis and it would make people take heart problems more seriously.

Speaking more broadly, people seek 'working line' dogs as companions for a wide range of reasons and some of us have done it because of the issues discussed by Jed and PF. However, you have to go into it with a pretty stubborn belief in your own vision, as it is certainly not rewarded in the show ring.

[Bisart Dobes]

Love the pictures, though have to say that 'show line' breeders should be breeding for all facets of their breed or it isn't truely their breed .

But I'll play . Here's a pic of a dobie - Show Line / Working Line ???????

[aussielover]

Love the pictures, though have to say that 'show line' breeders should be breeding for all facets of their breed or it isn't truely their breed .

But I'll play . Here's a pic of a dobie - Show Line / Working Line ???????

I'm not sure. It is harder in dobes to tell, because they are one of the breeds where the physical difference in show/working line is not that pronounced apart from maybe size, and you'd have to have the dog standnng next to a person or another dog to judge that.

But I'm guessing the dog pictured is a show or performance dobe in very good condition?

I adore the working lab

Edited September 24, 2010 by aussielover

[Aidan3]

I don't know where you'd draw the line when using dogs for hunting does usually involve killing some live critter.

Simulated field trials and working tests are, in many ways, more realistic tests of real work ability than Schutzhund or Ring sports. In any case, simulated field trials, tracking trials and Schutzhund are generally good predictors of working ability.

[Cairo1]

I fell in love with a working-line GSD owned by a friend. Otherwise I would have got another gundog.

That didn't happen to be Mayo, did it??? Sadly, he was one in a million and I was the luckiest dog owner on earth!!! There will never be another like him. . . . He is my 'heart dog'

[Staranais]

I don't know where you'd draw the line when using dogs for hunting does usually involve killing some live critter.

Simulated field trials and working tests are, in many ways, more realistic tests of real work ability than Schutzhund or Ring sports. In any case, simulated field trials, tracking trials and Schutzhund are generally good predictors of working ability.

I think perhaps they just test different things. The working trials we have here really test a dog's ability to track & do scent work in difficult conditions, to work independently, & to take direction from their owner. But none test a dog's nerve by pitting them against a human in the way schutz & ring will, and the working trial jumps have nothing on the ring jumps (those are amazing!) Lots of border collies do wonderfully well in working trials here, but I'm not sure if they'd do as well in schutz or ring.

[siks3]

I have 2 working line GSD's. The older is a retired security dog.

The youngest was brought with the view of being a security dog and was the pick of the litter from a police dog father and a security dog mother ... and then my brother decided he wanted to get out of security.

They are beautiful natured dogs and I wouldn't swap them for anything (most of the time) but they are hard work. It takes a lot of work to stop them from becoming bored and destructive. They are definately not dogs you could just put in the backyard and forget about.

You have made an excellent point the working line GSDs I use to breed as pups were little terrors with teeth.

Without a firm owner and a lot of exercise and mental activity they would run wild in a family environment.

I was very picky on who I use to so sell my pups to.

I would rather sell to a homeless guy that traveled every ware on foot then sell to a family that wouldn't be able to give the dog activities to keep it happy.

I have sold dogs in the past to people on big farms with the best intentions only for them to turn into stock killers.

[Aidan3]

I fell in love with a working-line GSD owned by a friend. Otherwise I would have got another gundog.

That didn't happen to be Mayo, did it??? Sadly, he was one in a million and I was the luckiest dog owner on earth!!! There will never be another like him. . . . He is my 'heart dog'

It was indeed! 1 in 1 million, but so is Sabella in a different way so I'm still happy. If she has Mayo's longevity we'll be in trouble, she'll be as blind as a bat, so hopefully she slows down a bit.

[Jumabaar]

To get the working lines and show lines back together, you'd have to change the average dog (pretty) show to include a few exercises that demonstrated the working ability appropriate for that breed as well as the gait and conformation checks. And if I was setting it up, I think you'd have to have a huge variety of exercises available to choose from and then choose a few different ones for each show.

Eg BC would have to round up some sheep and then do the pretty thing in the ring. If BC couldn't herd sheep or attacked them it's not a proper BC... but it could still be a nice pet or agility dog.

As long as working ability is not tested in the show ring - there will be split lines.

Not sure what happens when the nature of the work changes eg agility isn't really dog work historically speaking.

Ok so to test these breeds working ability we have worked out what these different tests would have to be. From your statement I assume you want these available at every show................

I encourage you to add in the breeds that we would be testing with these

1- a persons lap

2- a lake with a barge on it

3- couple of lions

4- herd of sheep

5- race track

6- a few bears

7- several hectares of snow+sled

8- large monastery wall

9- various herds deer (multiple breeds both hunting and herding)

10- a car yard +"thief"

11- rats

12- rabbits

13- cattle (dairy and beef)

14- rabbit dens (with rabbits at the end, separate from the ones running across the top) + shot gun

15- ducks

16- drowning person

17- horse and carriage (with rum please!!!!!!!)

18- fire engine

19- few foxes+ several thousand hectares of british Forrest

20- raccoon

Please not this is NOT an exhaustive list.

I would enter this show because it sounds like a hell of a lot of fun!! This would sure boost numbers! I would like to also add that you would have to have very good enclosures for the lions to keep them from the deer and sheep, and wouldn't i like to cover the insurance for this event.

So who wants to finance it...............

[Perry's Mum]

I have a farm bred Koolie as a pet - she was born on a farm and rescued from there and came to me via Koolie Rescue. She is a great sheepdog but she also meets my requirements to be an intelligent and fun companion who is easy to live with and gets on with people of all ages.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

1- a persons lap

2- a lake with a barge on it

3- couple of lions

4- herd of sheep

5- race track

6- a few bears

7- several hectares of snow+sled

8- large monastery wall

9- various herds deer (multiple breeds both hunting and herding)

10- a car yard +"thief"

11- rats

12- rabbits

13- cattle (dairy and beef)

14- rabbit dens (with rabbits at the end, separate from the ones running across the top) + shot gun

15- ducks

16- drowning person

17- horse and carriage (with rum please!!!!!!!)

18- fire engine

19- few foxes+ several thousand hectares of british Forrest

20- raccoon

21- A snow Leopard

22- Wolves

23- Gazelle

24- Hare

Edited September 25, 2010 by SkySoaringMagpie

[Vickie]

My main point is that shows which are usually designed to pick the best dogs for breeding, should ideally test and take into account the abilities the dog was originally bred for. At the moment - as far as I know - the standard breed shows do not do this. They will disqualify a dog for bad temperment like biting a judge - but is herding instinct tested or required?

I don't believe testing herding instinct, even if it could be done at a show, would do anything to improve a herding breed. Having a bit of instinct to move towards sheep or even the ability to balance does not make a good working dog. The current herding instinct test, as it stands, could allow many herding & non herding breeds to be labelled with instinct. In fact, I believe any dog in the hands of a good trainer can be taught to look as if it has instinct.

There are so many complex traits which make a dog worthy of breedng for stockwork. What would testing one or two of them really achieve? Certainly not a better class of working dog.

I am sure the same can be said for other types of work in other breeds.

FWIW, 2 of the nicest sheepdogs I have ever seen, spent their first couple of sessions on sheep looking like piranhas.

[Steve]

Working bred maremmas make great pets - we have champs who work all week with goats and run around a show ring all weekend and excel at both.