Working/working Line Dogs As Pets

[Jed]

This is not going to be the most popular post I've made, and it's one of the few which bash breeders.

As far as I am concerned, there is ONE type in each breed. Unfortunately, someone decided

1. they wanted a "working" dog, the pedigree dog they had wouldn't do it -

2. they had a good working dog of the breed - and they wanted more

so they decided they would breed their own - and they weren't careful enough to source dogs of the breed with the correct conformation AND temperament.

Or maybe they didn't understand genetics, or conformation, they just knew what they wanted, so they mated ugly or really off type dogs with working ability together - so they got workers, but so different from the breed norm, they could be another breed.

Conversely, "show breeders" somehow lost the plot, and began breeding for conformation without thinking about working ability. They put two ditzy dogs which were great lap dogs but hopeless workers together, and bred more ditzies.

Of course - no matter what you do, you do get klutz's in some litters - either from a working or conformation view ---- that's cool, but those dogs shouldn't be bred from.

I personally believe it is a terrible pity that some breeds are split like this, when we should have dogs which can work, and not nuts, and they look as they should.

We have had to damp down some breeds, but they were mainly the guarding breeds - so they could live in society. I am not talking about activity level, I am talking about the being very keen to bite.

However, there are SOME breeders breeding dogs which will work and which will win in the ring. I saw a beautiful collie rough working sheep some years ago - he was a top worker. He was also an show champion.

Dogs like that are the exception, not the rule.

Cocker spaniels are split into working/bench, but I have a friend who has dogs which can do both, and do do both. They do obedience, retrieve, win in the ring, and are homey pets too.

the conformation standard describes a dog which can do the job - unfortunately, the breeders have fallen down on the job, and the buyers do not know who has dual purpose dogs.

They are out there. It saddens me that as breeders, we are so poor that we cannot breed dogs which fill the standard, win in the ring and will do the job they were originally bred for.

One of the problems is that a lot of breeders only breed for a few years. They have some litters, they learn as they go, but unfortunately, the dogs they bred while they were learning went into the gene pool, and so it continues.

So sad. We breeders need to pull our socks up, I think.

Rant over. Normal programming can now resume.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Jed

[jesomil]

I dont believe it is compatible to breed for working and show in some breeds.

There always come a point where the breeder has to choose between traits.

There are very few excellent show dogs who also have a very high level of working ability.

If you want to breed excellent working dogs you breed only from excellent working dogs, the conformation is always there as they cant be excellent workers without it.

[poodlefan]

Jed, in most cases dogs were working long before they ever graced a show ring.

If anyone's lost the plot, its not the working line folk IMO. Some have simply stayed true to type. Some bench line dogs are so exaggerated - more coat, more loose skin, more height, less height, longer ears, more angles and if anyone ever thought about what the dog was bred to do, they'd toss the lot and start over with working dogs.

Yes, a dog that can work and win in the show ring might be the ideal, but the dog that has lost the form needed to work is not the direction we should be headed. Breed standards were developed for many breeds to describe the form that could perform a function.

Some of the dogs in the ring today are so far from their original form that its tragic. So few are shown in any sort of 'working condition' either.

No wonder folk want 'working line' dogs in some breeds. Temperament has gone down the toilet in more than a couple too.

[jesomil]

Great post poodlefan

[SpecTraining]

After reading all the replies in this thread.. I have an incredibly stupid question, please bear with me.

It seems there are breeds who have working line and show line (Rotties, Huskies, Dobes, GSDs etc etc), but is there any way to tell a working line dog from a 'pet' dog, besides referring to the breeder? For example if you were out walking and you passed a GSD, would you be able to tell just by looking on it if it was from a working line, show line or pet?

Or does 'working line' simply refer to the breed, ie. all Rotties are automatically working dogs etc.?

Workingline GSD's are rarely the traditional tan with black saddle markings. Many are pure black, sable, tan with black blanket, all black with tan legs, most are very dark faced along with a straighter back conformation often slightly smaller in the head and face.

[Remarkabull]

Great post poodlefan

+1

Agree 100% with your post PF

[poodlefan]

Silentchild:

For example if you were out walking and you passed a GSD, would you be able to tell just by looking on it if it was from a working line, show line or pet?

Physical appearance in most cases would tell you. Let me post an example:

Working line English Springer Spaniel (my preference in this breed)

Bench ESS

The bench dogs are usually bigger, have more coat, more body, longer ears and frequently looser eyelids.

Edited September 24, 2010 by poodlefan

[BMAK]

what exactly are the breeds that would be considered to have a seperate working and show line? Obviously it could be argued all breeds should only have one line , but when you're counting on you're dogs to make a living or your life depends on them, i think it is inevitable that a seperate working type is developed.

So far i can only think of

GSD

Malinois

Border Collies

Kelpies

possibly labradors- I know in america they have seperate working dogs (Marley style lol) and also many service dog orgs breed their own labs, resulting in dogs that have higher successs rates but are possibly not show-worthy.

with the kelpies they are the same line of dogs but they go way way back and from there on they were bred to be i think less of a high instinct that are a more compainion dog and built differently for different reasons and they only allow show dogs to be solid colours so blacks and red etc are only allowed to be shown not sure why my kelpie whos a blk n tan is just gorgeous and i would have loved to show her.. anyways some people just prefer that type of dog but when you own or get one you have to remember their purpose, because its inbuild into them from their line some arnt as high drive or instinctively born to herd or work. but if you own one you may have to work them mentally alot more then physically? due to there breeding and type

Don't know where you heard that about the colours. Quoted directly from the ANKC Kelpie breed standard under colours:

"Black, black and tan, red, red and tan, fawn, chocolate, and smoke blue", so all those colours can be shown.

well what i have read In Australia, there are two separate registries for Kelpies.

"Working Kelpies" are registered with the Working Kelpie Council (WKC), which is the primary authority on the breed standard, and/or the State Sheepdog Workers Association. The WKC encourages breeding for working ability, and allows a wide variety of coat colors. The "Working Kelpie" cannot be shown, due to the wide standards allowed by the WKC."Show Kelpies" are registered with the Australian National Kennel Council, which encourages breeding for a certain appearance and limits dogs to certain colors. Only Show Kelpies may be shown in Australia

[SpecTraining]

Great post poodlefan

X 2

[poodlefan]

Working Clumber Spaniels

Bench Clumber:

Lower, heavier, looser skin (especially on head)

Some of the working line dogs have more colour - Clumber and English Setters are examples.

[poodlefan]

Working Basset Hound:

Bench Basset Hound

[ChristineX]

Thank you for the photos, Poodlefan, I enjoyed them. And definately prefer the look of the working versions!

[poodlefan]

Thank you for the photos, Poodlefan, I enjoyed them. And definately prefer the look of the working versions!

They tend to be more moderate. I think "moderate" is a good thing in a dog.

[SpecTraining]

This is not going to be the most popular post I've made, and it's one of the few which bash breeders.

As far as I am concerned, there is ONE type in each breed. Unfortunately, someone decided

1. they wanted a "working" dog, the pedigree dog they had wouldn't do it -

2. they had a good working dog of the breed - and they wanted more

so they decided they would breed their own - and they weren't careful enough to source dogs of the breed with the correct conformation AND temperament.

Or maybe they didn't understand genetics, or conformation, they just knew what they wanted, so they mated ugly or really off type dogs with working ability together - so they got workers, but so different from the breed norm, they could be another breed.

Conversely, "show breeders" somehow lost the plot, and began breeding for conformation without thinking about working ability. They put two ditzy dogs which were great lap dogs but hopeless workers together, and bred more ditzies.

Of course - no matter what you do, you do get klutz's in some litters - either from a working or conformation view ---- that's cool, but those dogs shouldn't be bred from.

I personally believe it is a terrible pity that some breeds are split like this, when we should have dogs which can work, and not nuts, and they look as they should.

We have had to damp down some breeds, but they were mainly the guarding breeds - so they could live in society. I am not talking about activity level, I am talking about the being very keen to bite.

However, there are SOME breeders breeding dogs which will work and which will win in the ring. I saw a beautiful collie rough working sheep some years ago - he was a top worker. He was also an show champion.

Dogs like that are the exception, not the rule.

Cocker spaniels are split into working/bench, but I have a friend who has dogs which can do both, and do do both. They do obedience, retrieve, win in the ring, and are homey pets too.

the conformation standard describes a dog which can do the job - unfortunately, the breeders have fallen down on the job, and the buyers do not know who has dual purpose dogs.

They are out there. It saddens me that as breeders, we are so poor that we cannot breed dogs which fill the standard, win in the ring and will do the job they were originally bred for.

One of the problems is that a lot of breeders only breed for a few years. They have some litters, they learn as they go, but unfortunately, the dogs they bred while they were learning went into the gene pool, and so it continues.

So sad. We breeders need to pull our socks up, I think.

Rant over. Normal programming can now resume.

Breeders will breed the type of dog that has the most potential for show wins if they breed for shows. The question is, why are dogs winning shows when altered from the original breed standard when in fact they shouldn't be. Are breeders at fault or the show judges???.

An example would be a GSD specialty show. How can a Shutzhund titled imported dog loose to a local dog that isn't work tested and confirmed it is bred to correct type???. IMHO, all the work titled dogs should fill the top placings before any untitled dogs are looked at in a working dog category show.

[kyliegirl]

it would be great to see more photo comparisons of working vs show breeds, I recall there being a significant difference in working and show German Shepherds.

[Tay.]

I have a WL Border Collie. I much prefer them over a show bred dog, firstly I believe a dog should be bred for it's original purpose (in some breeds, not all), I don't do sheep work with mine, but I know she'd be more then capable to do so (and I hope to get her working in the near future), and I've seen some BC's which don't have the instinct and physical capability that would be needed in herding. I'd choose a WL dog in most breeds, because I think they are more intelligent, driven and have more power to do what I want, I also prefer the build and general appearance. I wouldn't keep my current dog as just a "pet", as she needs a job to do which has turned out to be competitive bedience and agility.

[poodlefan]

Working English Setter

Bench English Setter

[Tay.]

Loving these pics PF!! Keep 'em coming!

[jesomil]

well what i have read In Australia, there are two separate registries for Kelpies.

"Working Kelpies" are registered with the Working Kelpie Council (WKC), which is the primary authority on the breed standard, and/or the State Sheepdog Workers Association. The WKC encourages breeding for working ability, and allows a wide variety of coat colors. The "Working Kelpie" cannot be shown, due to the wide standards allowed by the WKC."Show Kelpies" are registered with the Australian National Kennel Council, which encourages breeding for a certain appearance and limits dogs to certain colors. Only Show Kelpies may be shown in Australia

All this is correct. Show Kelpies can only be certain colours and blk/tan and red/tan etc are included. The solid colours seem more popluar in the show dogs but the are some two tones out there as well.

The working bred Kelpies cant be shown as they are working dogs but they can compete with their skills in yard dog trials for example.

[Remarkabull]

Loving these pics PF!! Keep 'em coming!

Me too, and in every one so far I have preferred the working dog over the show one.