"grown Up" Breeds

[corvus]

What's grown up? If you mean physical neotony, the squashed in face breeds are all puppies. . .and a case could be made for smaller breeds too; and long nosers are more wolf-like. If you mean behaviour you get a different set of answers. I think you need to consider DNA evidence, thus publications written before the dog genome was published add historical interest but can't be taken too seriously.

I mean behaviourally. I was reading Karen Pryor's latest book and in the first chapter there's an account of a quick training session with a wolf. She describes a moment when the wolf stops and gives her a very direct, long stare, apparently assessing whether she was in or out of this game she'd been playing with him. It really resonated with me. I saw some wolves at an American zoo a few years ago and there was something in them that just wasn't dog by any stretch of the imagination. The way they moved and regarded their environment was quite different. I wonder if there are dogs that are like that, or more like that perhaps than other dogs.

Thanks for the info, Mita.

[Moi]

Siberian huskies are with out a doubt, they are extremely independent in their thinking and very smart. The wolf you talk about sounds very much like a husky in it's behaviour.

[RallyValley]

Saarlos Wolfhound maybe?

[mita]

Thanks for the info, Mita.

Corvus, I'm still trying to find the more recent article, comparing dog breeds, in terms of comparisons with the wolf. Given it was based on knowledge which followed the genome project, it was based on something tangible. The earlier stuff tended to be based on someone's idea & assessment of dog behaviours (& we know how contentious that can be!).

I've got a feeling it might have been in the Scientific American. Shall keep looking...

But I did find a great diagram showing the evolution of dog breeds in relation to wolves (thanks to the genome project). This article also picks up on something I read in the article I can't find . Which was, there's a set of East Asian dog breeds that have a very high level of genetic sharing with Chinese wolves.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/...00317144640.htm

Edited September 25, 2010 by mita

[Dame Aussie]

Mosley is an Anatolian x Maremma and he is like this. He is extremely independent and calm.

He gets excited easily but his demeanour is so chilled out, he seems very wise. One of his nicknames is Gandhi.

[corvus]

But I did find a great diagram showing the evolution of dog breeds in relation to wolves (thanks to the genome project). This article also picks up on something I read in the article I can't find . Which was, there's a set of East Asian dog breeds that have a very high level of genetic sharing with Chinese wolves.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/...00317144640.htm

I recently saw that diagram in New Scientist, I think it was. It's a bit hard to read! I hadn't seen that Science Daily article, though.

I want a Canaan Dog. CD breeder told me that CDs whisper. Their body language is more subtle than most dogs, and they are known for being a bit aggressive with other dogs. The breeder suggested it wasn't so much they were aggressive as they talked in whispers and most dogs didn't notice. I found that interesting, in that I think wolves have a much more complex and subtle language than domestic dogs.

[AmandaJ]

All Canines have their origins in the wolf. Domestication changes the animal. Take a look a the Russian Silver Fox experiment - domestication changed the developmental stages which resulted in changes to the physical appearance, the cycle, and the temperament of the animal. The closer the animal to it's natural state the closer the animal to it's origins and it's original genetic state and therefore it's instinctive nature to hunt and feed.

[whiskedaway]

Siberian huskies are with out a doubt, they are extremely independent in their thinking and very smart. The wolf you talk about sounds very much like a husky in it's behaviour.

I'm not so sure. I own a seven month old Husky who is still a big puppy and definitely no where near "grown up". I can't see her outgrowing being a puppy for quite a while. Sure, she's more mature than some dogs of the same age (thinking in particular of a GSD in our obedience class) but there are others that I'd consider more grown up, like a SWF in our class.

[Swizzlestick]

My Afghan Hound grew up very quickly. Very independent, problem solver, super smart.

From about 6mths or so he was much more mature mentally than any dog of any breed I've ever met.

[m-j]

I would say Greyhounds also. I haven't actually owned at home a puppy under 6mths but at work their way of life seems serious. This could be also because they grow up in a pack which are usually siblings with virtually no interference from humans with their behaviour. They are very competative (which could be due to the age they are while at the kennels) but will work together as a pack when it suits them. The Greys body language is also subtle and subdued, my guys here use their eyes alot, whereas the Kelpie will use her whole body and/or vocalise or maybe that's just because the Greys basically ignore her requests (poor Roxie).

Not all are like this but I have found this to be the general rule of thumb.

[espinay2]

If we are talking behavioural then all dogs are both similar and different from the wolf. From an ethological perspective the behaviours they exhibit are the same, the main difference being the instensity and frequency of certain behaviours. For more reading see some of the works of Dr Erich Klinghammer et al from 'Wolf Park' in Battleground Indiana. Generally wolves are on the extreme end of the scale. They are NOT a domesticated animals. Wolves raised in captivity are taken from their mother at 3 days and raised by hand with round the clock human attention. Even with this attention as a rule they dont remain 'attached' to a human past the juvenile stage (even those that raised them) and can never be 100% trusted. It simply makes them less wary of humans and less stressed by them so they can be better handled in a captive situation. No species of dog comes close to this extreme. Even breeds such as the Dingo, while certainly on the more 'primitive' scale, can adapt much more effectively to life with humans and will interact with them to a greater extent. But then they have traditionally had a much more of a symbiotic relationship with humans than wolves have.

All to a certain degree have been bred to emphasise juvenile traits to a greater or lesser extent. These juvenile traits to a large extent help them live and interact with humans. The Russian fox experiments have been mentioned and they are worth reading.

Another thing worth looking at is the Coppinger's book 'Dogs'. Coppinger postulates that all dogs have to different degrees been bred to emphasise particular prey related traits and to lessen others . For example on a prey drive continuum of orient>eye-stalk>chase>grab-bite>kill-bite>dissect>consume a wolf will have very strong drives to do all. A Border Collie on the other hand has been bred to emphasis the orient>eye-stalk>chase part of the continuum, but has been purposely bred to lessen the other traits that come after it.

On the whole, the dogs we have here in Australia from a breed perspective (with perhaps the exception of a very small number of - and not all - specialist protection bred dogs) are all fairly 'mild' when it comes to measuring behaviour on a scale against the Wolf. Even those we would consider fairly 'sharp' dogs here (including those bred to display all or most of the characteristics on the prey drive continuum) tend to be from breeds which need to work closely with humans and as a result have many 'less grown up' traits in that respect which allow them to work with a handler and want to follow commands. Other more 'independent' breeds often have been bred to have a lower prey drive (for example Livestock Guardians) so while quite 'grown up' in some respects are much less so in others.

Getting back to the Wolf, they are magnificent creatures for sure, and yes they display all the same traits that dogs do from an ethological perspective, but they are so far at the end of the scale from any type of domestic dog you yould name that they are very different creatures to deal with. they can be successfully trained in some circumstances, and a friend of mine in the US is responsible for training 'Atka' using clicker training to a reasonably high level of mangement to the point where he could be taken to do demonstrations and meet and greet sessions. He was a little unique though as I know most wolves never work that well with humans. Clicker training is definitely the most effective method of management though and many wolf facilities use it (cheese in a can is a popular reward dispenser as it is much easier to manage with wolves, beleive me! LOL! :-O ) Yes, training with wolves is more management than anything else - to assist handling and moving the animal about with less stress. Wolves do things on their terms and much much more than ANY dog you need to convince them it is in their interest to do so. Take the most dominant, independent, wilful and prey driven dog you can think of and it just wouldn't come close.

Edited September 26, 2010 by espinay2

[mita]

Thanks for that, espinay. An interesting read. You're right to highlight the perils of jumping straight from genes to behaviour.

Behaviour, in dogs as well as humans, is also influenced by the environment, such as training & socialisation.

Re the relationship between the wolf & domestic dogs, there's an interesting paper about the genetic structure of domestic dogs. These researchers single out 9 dog breeds from 76 others in terms of statistical support for 'closeness' to the wolf. From highest, they are Chinese Shar Pei, Shiba Inu, Chow Chow, Akita, Basenji, Siberian Husky, Alaskan Malamute, Afghan Hound, Saluki. (Not the East Asian breeds topping the list...in their case it's 'closeness to the Chinese Wolf.)

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=ca..._6TUKVo2Amafnrw

Edited September 26, 2010 by mita