D.a When Dogs Get In His Face And Personal Space Is It Common?

[BMAK]

HI guys before you start to comment or provide any help/questions/answers.. i dont have the time or money atm to see a proffessional trainer or behaviourist so if thats your answer thanks but i cant afford it ATM.

here we go!

i own two kelpies one female and had a foster male undesexed for the past few weeks they had a few scuffles nothing serious the other dog had not pack manners what so ever in our house now all three get along great with no problems of D.A

2.5 year old male desexed "mixed signal" but loves every little dog (MAC) << MY PROBLEM

i obtained him at 6 weeks we did puppy.P.S. he was never ever interested in other dogs didnt want to play or intereact just did his own thing but if a dog jumped on his he would growl so his aggression majority is from his breeding. our p.p.s. teacher was Sh.t so we never really picked up on his D.A side because we didnt know that was the start, only even having submissive dogs we never understood dog triggers and behaviours that were not friendly or appropriate to confront.

my dog is obedient and manner trained and is not problem near or around other dogs (all sizes) until they approach him we tell people before they come close or approach that he isnt ready to go near other dogs because he doesnt like them but they are stupid enough to come near and he snaps and they wonder why!!!???

we ( myself and my mum ) try to avoid this bad behaviour as he will learn it more.

he doesnt go out of his way to chase attack or savagely bite another dog. its only if they come to him in his face and personal bubble or touch him/even sniff and are treatening his dominance and size he reacts almost instantly.

he is friendly with a few dogs at obedience training that are bigger then him a lab and 3 separate border collies from diff family's and all the little dogs we have no problem with. he knows is pack position with these other dogs.

i know its not a fear reaction and when i do correct him in O.T when he is on his martingale or check.c he lashes out to who ever is near him and snaps ( my lead is tight) so i have read up on that but i know i cant correct him the same way you would with some D.A types by checking him.

i have to separate myself atleast 1/2 metre to 1 m away when doing about turns or weaving i avoid sometimes. and encourage his friendy behaviour and loose lead.

~>>>>so what im asking is this personal bubble Dog Aggression common amoung dogs and how can i correct him when he does this behaviour (snapping) on lead when they get in his bubble ?? <<<<<~ thanks guys

[Aidan]

i know its not a fear reaction and when i do correct him in O.T when he is on his martingale or check.c he lashes out to who ever is near him and snaps ( my lead is tight) so i have read up on that but i know i cant correct him the same way you would with some D.A types by checking him.

I think if you want to gain an insight into his behaviour you will need to stop thinking about dominance, not because it doesn't exist but because it is confusing the issue for you. A dominant dog does not do what you have described in this thread, in these contexts.

It is quite common for dogs to want their own personal space. There is nothing wrong with that until the dog is forced to defend his personal space. I am fairly similar in this regard. Dogs will do what works for them, so if aggressive behaviour gets other dogs out of his personal space, that is what he will repeat, he can't ask them to back off any other way. Given that you cannot afford a behaviourist to work with you at this point, my best advice would be for you to defend his space for him. Keep him away from off-leash dogs, ask people to keep their dog away from yours.

Continue to socialise him with dogs he knows and accepts in his personal space, and of course, continue with his training. Make training a fun, positive experience so that he does not experience any anxiety about what you might do next and this will give him a safe, reliable leader (you) who has demonstrated that you will keep the dogs he doesn't want in his space, out of his space for him. His trust in you will then continue to grow, and if you're lucky and consistent, he might even just leave it all to you.

[Kavik]

Obviously the best thing would be for you to get some help from a trainer.

Firstly, (as you have learned) you can't trust other people to listen to you in regards to your dog's personal space. So since your dog reacts when another dog comes into his space, the safe thing to do is not to walk your dog where off leash dogs are likely to come up to him. Putting yourself in the position where other dogs are likely to come up is setting you up for failure.

Another thing you can do is work on his focus on you and trust in you. If you can get his focus on you, and he trusts you to take care of the problem (other dog) you may be able to reduce the distance at which he reacts to other dogs. For this I have had success with the book Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog.

[poodlefan]

i know its not a fear reaction

How do you know? My fear aggressive boy does EXACTLY what you've described.

[persephone]

I had a fear aggressive dog- and he was VERY wary of invasions into his personal space I learnt to manage it - never 'cured' it.

Behaviour on leash, like 'lashing out' can occur because the dog feels threatened .

The dog also picks up tension from the owner - body language, leash tighness, voice, sweat....

It is not an easy one to try & learn to manage without personal help.

[Monah]

i know its not a fear reaction

How do you know? My fear aggressive boy does EXACTLY what you've described.

and my girl

[Vickie]

i know its not a fear reaction and when i do correct him in O.T when he is on his martingale or check.c he lashes out to who ever is near him and snaps ( my lead is tight) so i have read up on that but i know i cant correct him the same way you would with some D.A types by checking him.

I think if you want to gain an insight into his behaviour you will need to stop thinking about dominance, not because it doesn't exist but because it is confusing the issue for you. A dominant dog does not do what you have described in this thread, in these contexts.

It is quite common for dogs to want their own personal space. There is nothing wrong with that until the dog is forced to defend his personal space. I am fairly similar in this regard. Dogs will do what works for them, so if aggressive behaviour gets other dogs out of his personal space, that is what he will repeat, he can't ask them to back off any other way. Given that you cannot afford a behaviourist to work with you at this point, my best advice would be for you to defend his space for him. Keep him away from off-leash dogs, ask people to keep their dog away from yours.

Continue to socialise him with dogs he knows and accepts in his personal space, and of course, continue with his training. Make training a fun, positive experience so that he does not experience any anxiety about what you might do next and this will give him a safe, reliable leader (you) who has demonstrated that you will keep the dogs he doesn't want in his space, out of his space for him. His trust in you will then continue to grow, and if you're lucky and consistent, he might even just leave it all to you.

What a great post Aidan

One of my girls needs her personal space, especially when she is focussed at a trial. I do my absolute best to allow her to have it and I am always watching for dogs approaching that may bother her. She has learnt that I will look after her & if worried will always get as close to me as she can. On the rare occasion that we have been out & about & other dogs (not under owner control) have run up to her in a way that makes her uncomfortable, I pick her up & make it my job to get rid of the other dogs. She hangs out happily with lots of dogs, but only ones who I know or whose body language I have observed first. Every now & then she feels the need to give a warning & it is generally appropriate & heeded. If the other dog does not respond, again, I make it my job to remedy the situation.

I all her 6 1/2 years, only once has a dog jumped on her & had to be pulled off (no damage done) b/c I misread the dog & the owners ability to read & control it. It won't happen again.

I don't consider her to dominant or fear aggressive. She just doesn't like rudeness from other dogs.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Vickie

[Agility Dogs]

i know its not a fear reaction and when i do correct him in O.T when he is on his martingale or check.c he lashes out to who ever is near him and snaps ( my lead is tight) so i have read up on that but i know i cant correct him the same way you would with some D.A types by checking him.

I think if you want to gain an insight into his behaviour you will need to stop thinking about dominance, not because it doesn't exist but because it is confusing the issue for you. A dominant dog does not do what you have described in this thread, in these contexts.

It is quite common for dogs to want their own personal space. There is nothing wrong with that until the dog is forced to defend his personal space. I am fairly similar in this regard. Dogs will do what works for them, so if aggressive behaviour gets other dogs out of his personal space, that is what he will repeat, he can't ask them to back off any other way. Given that you cannot afford a behaviourist to work with you at this point, my best advice would be for you to defend his space for him. Keep him away from off-leash dogs, ask people to keep their dog away from yours.

Continue to socialise him with dogs he knows and accepts in his personal space, and of course, continue with his training. Make training a fun, positive experience so that he does not experience any anxiety about what you might do next and this will give him a safe, reliable leader (you) who has demonstrated that you will keep the dogs he doesn't want in his space, out of his space for him. His trust in you will then continue to grow, and if you're lucky and consistent, he might even just leave it all to you.

What a great post Aidan :D

One of my girls needs her personal space, especially when she is focussed at a trial. I do my absolute best to allow her to have it and I am always watching for dogs approaching that may bother her. She has learnt that I will look after her & if worried will always get as close to me as she can. On the rare occasion that we have been out & about & other dogs (not under owner control) have run up to her in a way that makes her uncomfortable, I pick her up & make it my job to get rid of the other dogs. She hangs out happily with lots of dogs, but only ones who I know or whose body language I have observed first. Every now & then she feels the need to give a warning & it is generally appropriate & heeded. If the other dog does not respond, again, I make it my job to remedy the situation.

I all her 6 1/2 years, only once has a dog jumped on her & had to be pulled off (no damage done) b/c I misread the dog & the owners ability to read & control it. It won't happen again.

I don't consider her to dominant or fear aggressive. She just doesn't like rudeness from other dogs.

My boy is exactly the same and I've adopted exactly the same way to manage him around other dogs.

[Zug Zug]

Hmm. I don't disagree with any of what I've read above, except to say that I have never found it easy to convince people that they need to keep their dogs away from my (small, fluffy, friendly-looking) DA dog.

I don't know why - they just don't believe me. They seem to feel compelled to let their dog approach no matter what I say. And if they get too close before I can stop them, she lunges...

So yes I defend her space as much as I can - but it's not 100% reliable is it?

[Vickie]

They seem to feel compelled to let their dog approach no matter what I say. And if they get too close before I can stop them, she lunges...

Where are you when these dogs are approaching? on the street? at the dogpark? at training?

So yes I defend her space as much as I can - but it's not 100% reliable is it?

Not 100%, but I think it's possible to get pretty close to 100%. It is a very determined & agile dog that gets to my girl when I am defnding her space. I don't concern myself with the people too much, especially if their dog is not under good control. I focus on the dog approaching.

[BMAK]

i know its not a fear reaction

How do you know? My fear aggressive boy does EXACTLY what you've described.

thanks for your replys's

picking up nearly 30 kg of muscle and fat isnt going to work haha!

i do avoid going near bigger dogs at all cost unless he knows them

*he doesnt lash out or lunge at dogs walking past (isnt scared by them is happy to wag his tail the sly thing)

*its only on contact that he changes instantly, he doesnt hide or run away

*if he doesnt like the dog he snaps almost instant he doesnt back up or cower while doing this just stands still

off lead he is a different dog more friendly to larger dogs but he doesnt stay still often enough to have a go because they are not near.

*he picks up straight away the dominant dogs mostly staffys so i avoid them altogether (i see they are threatening his dominance he trys to sit on my other dog at home- dominance)

maybe it could be a fear thing? i dont really know im no expert but the signs arn't clear

but i dont see the signs that i would consider fear he pretends he is friendly to some and will be submissive them suddenly snap as soon as they get in his face

at home he trys he hardest to let my other dog know he owns her constantly reminding her by grabbing her check layingon her

he has redirected aggression at training onlead > ""Redirected aggression is a relatively common type of aggression but one that is often misunderstood by pet owners. If a dog is somehow provoked by a person or animal he is unable to attack, he may redirect this aggression onto someone else. For example, two family dogs may become excited, and bark and growl in response to another dog passing through the front yard; or two dogs confined behind a fence may turn and attack each other because they can't attack an intruder.

[Aidan3]

If he can walk past other dogs without any problems then your job is simple, don't let them get into his face.

None of the things you have mentioned would lead me to conclude that there are any rank issues (dominance), all still looking like fear or anxiety. It doesn't need to be much fear, or much anxiety, but whatever behaviour relieves the pressure, you will see more of. Even if he is just a little uncertain, if barking or growling or whatever relieves that uncertainty, it will be repeated. Does that make sense?

So you need to relieve the pressure for him. Don't let unknown dogs get in his face. If he does meet a dog, be it a new dog or an old friend, make sure that it is a fun, pleasant experience for him.

[BMAK]

the anxiety, shows in other areas like his whining high pitch, but for other reasons when he isnt around dogs.

he isnt very good at giving warnings to others like growling or barking its quick and fast but doesnt leave the other dog in pain or bleeding sometimes he doesnt even touch them. he basically wants to be left alone yet when little dogs are near he just loves them he wants to be friendly but he doesnt know how to with bigger dogs?

we currently have another rescue pup with us until sunday he has had a snap at it because it got in his face.. it cried and he didnt really care to much to react just went and layed down

what you are saying does make sense aiden, dogs minds are simple yet so complex for humans to understand wel my dog and his signals are haha thanks guys

[Aidan3]

He sounds fairly normal, some dogs have that way of dealing with others. It can get them/you into trouble though, and it's a signal to hold a bit of space for him.

[Bully]

I think that it should be compulsory reading for all dog owners to read Suzanne Clothier's article He Just Wants To Say Hi Not all dog's like or appreciate other dog's in their face, especially if they are on lead and some owners just do not get it, so the poor reactive dog gets the blame

I can sympathize with Zug Zug as no one thinks that the cute poodle is reactive and take no notice of warnings I have the opposite with Pele, who is fine with all dogs, very tolerant and no problem, but because she is a Bull Terrier people automatically take a wide berth.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

There are quite a few dogs at our dog club that are like that including some that belong to instructors. They hate being approached or sniffed by other dogs. Some of them are ok (they don't snap) when they're the dog that gets to approach while the other dog lies down or upside down (non threatening positions). But they snap if that dog or any other does the approaching and sniffing (perceived threat).

My dog always wants to approach and greet other dogs, and sometimes I forget to make sure she leaves these unfriendly dogs alone, but you can see really quickly their hackles go up and a growl... though some of them have been scolded by their owners for doing that so they give no warning at all. Snap first, can't be told off for giving a warning.

If my dog was like that - and another dog approached - I'd go between her and the other dog (blocking) and I'd give the warning growl to make the approaching dog back off. It's a strict rule at our dog club that you MUST get permission from the other dog owner before you allow your dog to approach - so people who complain - when they've done the wrong thing and their dog gets snapped at - don't get the support they were looking for.

And I'd probably avoid off leash places. But most state animal management rules say - my dog is not allowed to chase or harass another (without the owner's permission)... so same rule as dog club would apply. If another dog approached yours and persisted when you told it off, then it's harrassing you and your dog.

Given that some of these dogs belong to instructors, I think training some dogs to give up their personal space and be ok about being greeted or surprised by other dogs - might be extremely difficult.

[BMAK]

some people are better instructors(obedience) then dog handlers(behaviour and correction) i for one am one of those people i would say i am a good owner i try my hardest to do everything right by my dog from exercise love n food boundaries etc...

i have see other instructors that own two aggressive dogs (wont name as she is a lovely lady but bad handler) . and both dogs have attacked my male dog mine was onlead both times and the lady had them offlead knowing her dogs a bolters and D.A two separate occasions my boy wasnt even making a challege aproaching or eye contact so he does ignore other agg dogs but its on touch he goes.

i have only had two dogs in my life time so far but with a few fosters and temp cares. my first dog same breed from different lines is submissive and normally wont interact with majority of dogs she will stand around but wont sniff or make eye contact. sometimes lay down and sleeps between a pack she is just that calm, but totally different kettle of fish with this boy we got him desexed early thinking it might make a difference but i wouldnt be able to stand between him and a dog half a metre away if i was to hold or pull his lead away he would get anxiety and then focus like a hawk aiming to snap so i have to have a loose lead if im near.

thanks bully going to read that artical and Aiden your a big help im going to read up on click to calm he responds well to clicker training and not harsh methods if i was to raise my voice he would get upset( other dog i have to be so consistant and pull her outside for instance where as my boy will do it with a handsignal only, it sucks that he isnt friendly i always feel upset that he wont be able to run on sand and interact with other dogs the only time his aggresson occurs is when stupid people dont listen and let there dog approach i know he isnt friendly and try to avoid the learnt behaviour but it doesnt help when there are more irrisponsible owners then myself even tho my dog is not dog friendy.

so i know its not all me making him aggressive but his breeding is highly involved

thanks guys

[Dogs4Fun]

You say the dog is a foster dog. Do you mean you are fostering him until he finds a permanent home? If so, the foster group may be able to help provide funds or a contact for a local trainer, possibly at a reduced rate.

[BMAK]

sorry no, i own two dogs two kelpies one male and one female and foster sometimes and atm i am curently minding a 8wk pup so three dogs atm