Professional Trainer Needed For Blind Person

[Tapua]

OK this is a bit different. A young man called Michael lives in Shortland nears Wallsend-Newcastle. He is blind and his aging X-bred dog is also going blind. Still servicable but needs to retire in the next 18 months 2 years. Michael has always trained his own guide dog and has purchased one of my baby Labs to train up as a replacement. He is intelligent, competant and open to asking for assitance if he needs it. Is there any professional trainers in the Newcastle area willing to get to know Michael and work with him?

Things such as early conditoning and socialisation plus later the training needed to mold this pup into his guide dog. I didnt go there with why he doesnt go to the various Guide Dog Associations but apparently a number of Blind people choose not to.

Baby Lab 'Juke' is only 8 days old but it would be good to have someone be prepared to sit down with Michael and talk through ideas. Emails are not always a good option because his 'reading-talking' doenst alway work. He needs someone nearby he can talk to. I am contactable of course but I am in Woodstock near Cowra and he is in Shortland, Newcastle.

The litter have commenced Early Neurological Stimulation and his pup will be walking on a lead and kmow some basic commands by the time he gets him. He needs someone around to continue the process and work with Micheal to continue the conditioning. Please PM me is you are interested or have any questions.

Edited September 18, 2010 by Tapua

[Kavik]

Doesn't the dog need to be certified by an association to be able to get the access to public areas that a Guide Dog has?

[Erny]

Doesn't the dog need to be certified by an association to be able to get the access to public areas that a Guide Dog has?

Yes.

How can Michael train his dog to (eg) not cross at a red light or when a car is coming, when Michael himself can't see the red light or car coming to be able to set up for it? This would be just one of the many many things the dog needs training for and the training needs to be intensive and extensive.

When you are entrusting your (and other people's) life to a dog, I would certainly not recommend a DIY job.

[Tapua]

Doesn't the dog need to be certified by an association to be able to get the access to public areas that a Guide Dog has?

Yes.

How can Michael train his dog to (eg) not cross at a red light or when a car is coming, when Michael himself can't see the red light or car coming to be able to set up for it? This would be just one of the many many things the dog needs training for and the training needs to be intensive and extensive.

When you are entrusting your (and other people's) life to a dog, I would certainly not recommend a DIY job.

All I am asking is if there is someone in his area interested in assisting. I have presumed a professional would be better able to work with Michael than the average local obedience club trainers. I also thought that this forum might have access to professional trainers who may be interested. He has obviously done this before, he has greater insight into what he needs in a guide/assitance dog than most trainers so it may be a good opportunity to learn if one was open to doing so.

As for having to be accredited as a service/guide dog I dont know how he managed it but obviously he has. God forbid a request for assitance becomes political.

Edited September 19, 2010 by Tapua

[Erny]

... he has greater insight into what he needs in a guide/assitance dog ...

Is it an assistance dog he needs or is it a dog to guide him as a guide dog would? There is a difference between the two.

God forbid a request for assitance becomes political.

I have a feeling the above isn't you being nice ??? Or am I mistaken?

[Staranais]

As for having to be accredited as a service/guide dog I dont know how he managed it but obviously he has. God forbid a request for assitance becomes political.

I think people are more concerned for him than trying to make any kind of political point - i.e., concerned that he might shell out a lot of hours & money training the dog, then discover that the dog isn't eligible to work as a guide dog anyway due to him perhaps not having gone through the proper/usual channels to get a guide dog.

[Tapua]

As for having to be accredited as a service/guide dog I dont know how he managed it but obviously he has. God forbid a request for assitance becomes political.

I think people are more concerned for him than trying to make any kind of political point - i.e., concerned that he might shell out a lot of hours & money training the dog, then discover that the dog isn't eligible to work as a guide dog anyway due to him perhaps not having gone through the proper/usual channels to get a guide dog.

Erny/Staranais :D I am sorry if the post came across wrong it just that there is a tendencey in DOL respondee's to get off track on the tpoic.

I appreciate how odd this request is and all I am asking for is if thre is someone in the area interested in working with Michael. The person should meet him and decide wether this is something they want to do. Michael is very aware that 50% of guide dogs/assistance dogs dont make it and claims he would prefer to do this his way. There will be times another person to help brainstorm a problem would help. He is not on his own he is married and has family around.

I get the feeling he has had alot of people try to tell him what to do and he hasnt been heard very well.

I know when I was in a wheel-chair and lived on my own for 12 months it was like people suddenly thought I was deaf or stupid and assummed what I needed without asking me - very well intentioned but very frustrating trying to get through to them I didnt need sympathy I needed some milk for a cuppa because I couldnt get out of the building in a wheelchair. And my dog wasnt a good at carrying the milk carton

But noooo people wanted to talk about the cancer - presume I was going to die, how terrible it was being in a wheelchair.... blah blah ... and still they didnt bring the bloody milk!! all I needed was the bloody milk

How he does this really isnt my business but to have someone prepared to work with him nearby would be good if it is achievable.

Edited September 19, 2010 by Tapua

[BMAK]

hi, with the local obedience club they will probably only be able to teach him obedience/trial work, not what he probably needs like teaching the dog to listen for the crossing sounds and to avoid obsticals in the way ?

at my obedience club we had a blind man and his wife they had an older rescue golden retriever, he and the dog went into trials without the judges even knowing he was blind and passed.

The man and his dog were able to complete high obedience work but i think you are going to find, it is going to be very hard to find someone in the newcastle area that understand and knows how to teach the dog the work that guide dogs are required to learn.. without having experience

i think there might be a guide dog place in hamilton but as you said he doesnt want to go to them.

good luck

[poodlefan]

I think this guy will be hard pressed to find a professional trainer to help him.

He's talking about very skillss and that kind of experience is unlikely to be found easily.

The first 12 months of any guide dog's life is just social skills and obedience - there will be plenty of folk who can help with that.

Edited September 19, 2010 by poodlefan

[Erny]

I think this guy will be hard pressed to find a professional trainer to help him.

On top of everything else, I think there would be the danger of a 'libellous suit" if Michael is actually asking for someone to help train a dog "for guide/assistance" purposes. What I mean by that is regardless of Michael's intent, the trainer he seeks could be held liable (if not by Michael then potentially by someone else) because the trainer took on the job knowing that Michael wants a guide or an assistance dog (this is why I asked which one of these he actually wants and it can make a great difference) and that his life/safety may rely on the training of that dog.

NB: I'm not a lawyer and consequently my concerns regards to the above might be held to be ill-founded, but they are concerns to be overcome all the same and may be part of the reason why Michael finds it difficult to find someone to help him train up his own dog outside of the usual (and good) formal and expert channels. Even if the legal side of things can be satisfied, there would still be the immense pressure on the trainer who would know that regardless of Michael's own assurances of "it's ok", they would still carry the burden of (at least a sense of) responsibility should the worst happen and the dog fails its duty in some catastrophic way. So this would also add up to another reason why Michael might find it difficult to find a trainer to assist him and is also another reason why clarification of exactly what he wants/expects could be helpful. If he wants a dog to be able to perform skills that would assist him but would not necessarily be life dependant and he can explain/clarify this, then it might make it easier for him to find a trainer who would be (a) capable and (b) comfortable enough to help him.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Erny

[Tapua]

True Poodlefan I agree - it will be difficult. All I can do is put it out there and see who is around and willing to help.

Catherine B; Wow now thats what I mean - people with dissabilities can do amazing things and it involved tremendous trust and confidence in himself and the dog to enter in a trial and pass.

I have to learn to walk again a couple of years after the surgery - my border-collie X Croftie Dog CD helped me to walk straight. Because I wanted to trail and he was such a good dog to train, I had to conentrate on not swinging my left leg out and hit him. The surgery damaged the nerves and they removed the 1/2 of the front of the anterior tibia & all the muscles were reconstucted differently. So to do it meant many hours of training for me. We competed at Bathurst Royal a few years ago and got third, won the ring in Mudgee in August of the same year and with a score of 196 tiitled Croftie in Canberra on his 5th trial last year.

I successfully gained CCD last month in Bathurst with our Lab Tua Tahi - 3 trail 3 passes!

Plus because I could walk I felt confident I could return to work and drive etc - I have been fully employed in AOD for the last 5 years - thanks to Croftie dog I would never have tried! Of course my doctors said it would never happen!

Edited September 20, 2010 by Tapua

[persephone]

Michael has always trained his own guide dog

Why can't he train this one in the same manner?

How many dogs has he had ?

I know experienced people who have done this- and from memory the dog was tested/accredited accordingly by the relevant organisation...and this was a long time ago - before there were law suits for everything!

I don't think I would like to be in a position where my Guide Dog was losing its sight ..and I knew that my next one was around 18 mths away ...MAYBE....depending on health, temperament and ability....

[aussielover]

Hi Tapua,

As you have mentioned, only 50% of guide dog puppies actually make it through the training. The puppy raising staff can often tell at a fairly young age ( around 4 months) which pups may be more suitable but even then, some pups do fail even in the last few days of training. I would be interested to know why he doesn't want to deal with Guide Dogs NSW?

As others have said there is a big difference between an assistance dog and a guide dog, with fewer dogs being suited to the latter. I also think assistance dog training is something that may be easier to teach, guide dog training is fairly specifc and A LOT depends on the temperament of the dog.

If he is so keen to go down this path (his choice i suppose), then I do know of a sydney based dog trainer who has experience with guide dog training in the UK and USA. She is always willing to give me advice with my trainee guide dog pup. She might be willing to help and go see him very occiasonally (she is in sydney) and perhaps phone/email contact would be ok? She is involved with training assistance dogs for private people i think. If it is a guide dog he is specifically after, I'm not even sure if she would agree, due to potnetial litigation etc, but anyway PM me if you want details.

I do hope everything works out with this puppy though.

PS. I love your labs they are so gorgeous!!!

Edited September 20, 2010 by aussielover

[Tapua]

I think this guy will be hard pressed to find a professional trainer to help him.

On top of everything else, I think there would be the danger of a 'libellous suit" if Michael is actually asking for someone to help train a dog "for guide/assistance" purposes. What I mean by that is regardless of Michael's intent, the trainer he seeks could be held liable (if not by Michael then potentially by someone else) because the trainer took on the job knowing that Michael wants a guide or an assistance dog (this is why I asked which one of these he actually wants and it can make a great difference) and that his life/safety may rely on the training of that dog.

NB: I'm not a lawyer and consequently my concerns regards to the above might be held to be ill-founded, but they are concerns to be overcome all the same and may be part of the reason why Michael finds it difficult to find someone to help him train up his own dog outside of the usual (and good) formal and expert channels. Even if the legal side of things can be satisfied, there would still be the immense pressure on the trainer who would know that regardless of Michael's own assurances of "it's ok", they would still carry the burden of (at least a sense of) responsibility should the worst happen and the dog fails its duty in some catastrophic way. So this would also add up to another reason why Michael might find it difficult to find a trainer to assist him and is also another reason why clarification of exactly what he wants/expects could be helpful. If he wants a dog to be able to perform skills that would assist him but would not necessarily be life dependant and he can explain/clarify this, then it might make it easier for him to find a trainer who would be (a) capable and (b) comfortable enough to help him.

I fully appreciate your concern - anyone interested would have to meet Michael and decide for themselves.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Tapua

[Tapua]

Hi Tapua,

As you have mentioned, only 50% of guide dog puppies actually make it through the training. The puppy raising staff can often tell at a fairly young age ( around 4 months) which pups may be more suitable but even then, some pups do fail even in the last few days of training. I would be interested to know why he doesn't want to deal with Guide Dogs NSW?

As others have said there is a big difference between an assistance dog and a guide dog, with fewer dogs being suited to the latter. I also think assistance dog training is something that may be easier to teach, guide dog training is fairly specifc and A LOT depends on the temperament of the dog.

If he is so keen to go down this path (his choice i suppose), then I do know of a sydney based dog trainer who has experience with guide dog training in the UK and USA. She is always willing to give me advice with my trainee guide dog pup. She might be willing to help and go see him very occiasonally (she is in sydney) and perhaps phone/email contact would be ok? She is involved with training assistance dogs for private people i think. If it is a guide dog he is specifically after, I'm not even sure if she would agree, due to potnetial litigation etc, but anyway PM me if you want details.

I do hope everything works out with this puppy though.

PS. I love your labs they are so gorgeous!!!

Thanks for that I will PM you. Yup love my Labs ( + Croftie Dog and the geriatric Kelpie Dixie) they are a big part of our life.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Tapua

[Erny]

I fully appreciate your concern - anyone interested would have to meet Michael and decide for themselves.

Certainly they would. But I think my point is being lost?

If you are posting, looking for a trainer who might be able/interested in helping Michael out, it would probably help more to know with a bit more clarification, what Michael actually wants/needs from the dog, to at least give people reading a 'starting' idea as to whether what or who they know is suitable to take that first step.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Erny

[Kavik]

And if it is necessary to get proper certification for the dog to be able to access public areas that Michael will want to take the dog, it is not very useful to him to have someone help him to train the dog if he will not be able to use the dog (as the dog won't be allowed to go in).

[aussielover]

Perhaps he doesn't want to take it into public places etc.

Guide dogs don't actually decide when to cross a road- the handler does

If the handler says cross, but a car is coming, then the dog is meant to not move, which is different to the dog actually deciding when to cross.

Maybe he just wants a dog that can guide him around potential hazards but not necessarily come with him into shops, or on public transport?

[Tapua]

Thanks guys but as you may appreciate I am trying to link the trainer with Michael not tell the world what Michael is doing since its only Michael's and trainers business. Hense the preference for the people interested to PM me. :D

Having said that looks like I have a trainer interested in discussing with Michael his options which is great the ball is in their court now. I am just the go between.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Tapua

[tianakaesha]

I knew a man who had blindness and guide dogs and he always trained his own dogs. They were trained, then at 12 months or 18 months were sent to the Guide Dog Association for assessment and follow up and certification.

While it is not the conventional way it works, sometimes for people who have had guide dogs their whole life, they are very suitable for training their own dogs - even if they are blind