Flat Coats In Wa

[Poo-Fong]

Like already said if you like there stock go buy from there.largest kennel means diddly squat & they don't show there dogs they just have pups all the time.

I only say “largest” to illustrate that they are the ones with the pups, and so if I don’t take one from there it is hard to find another in WA. The whole purpose of my thread is to get other recommendations because this large breeder has such a bad rep in these forums. So why you would say “if you like their stock go buy it” is beyond me?

(Although having said that, NOBODY has offered any concrete criticism against this breeder. Except that their dogs don’t look like flatcoats.)

There is one other breeder in WA who will have some pups in a few months, so I’m happy to go there, but again I’m just not sure if the “go East” message applies to them also?

As PF said, no-one is going to come out on a public forum with the gory details, true or not... however, did you not read vCBR's post?? I have quoted below:

...but since you were critising Flatties that win and do well you should steer clear of these health tested performance titled dogs and breeders and go ahead and get one from a breeder who has puppies for sale every week, no health clearances for hips and eyes and that won't let you meet the dam or even meet the sire without a fence between.

But hey, people have offered alternative sources of puppies, including WA breeders who do the right thing by the breed by health testing and are proud enough of what they produce to compete in several performance arenas, so I'm not sure what more you want from us? ;)

Enjoy your pup wherever he or she may come from.

ETA: I see you have acknowledged the other referrals in the post you made whilst I was typing - hope that they can help with your quest for a new Flattie!

Edited September 22, 2010 by ♥♫PD888♫♥

[OSoSwift]

The ones I knew of were not what I would class as the best looking Flatcoats but that was the least of their problems. Can I tell you the gories - No I would be breaching client confidentiality.

Needless to say I would be looking elsewhere and I would give myself a good 12 months in which to source a puppy.

[Dogsfevr]

What do you regard as the issue, with only meeting the Dam through a Fence? She claims that she doesn’t let people go any further because of diseases?

The must be the only breeder who uses this method.

Breeders encourage people to meet the dam & interact with her & meet all the pups even if you can't select one there & then.

You can't always meet the sire but if there you should also be able to meet him & again interact.

The disease factor is total rubbish .

They didn't pioneer the practice at all & i think Flatties are one of the breeds where testing before registering a litter is compulsory

[RallyValley]

No you decided to rant and have a rubbish on everyone else cause you didn't like what you were being told. If I was getting a Flat Coat I would get one from Fetchitup or Hawksdale here in WA or Skyehaven in SA but since you were critising Flatties that win and do well you should steer clear of these health tested performance titled dogs and breeders and go ahead and get one from a breeder who has puppies for sale every week, no health clearances for hips and eyes and that won't let you meet the dam or even meet the sire without a fence between.

As I said, different subjects.

As for rant, yes I do object to people that rubbish any Dog that doesn’t look EXACTLY like Dog-X. I am looking for a pet, so whilst I want the dog to comply with the standard, I am primarily concerned with hips, eyes, etc. (If my pet turned out to be suitable for breeding, AND I could find a decent sire, then I might consider it, but that’s not my primary goal.)

I’m glad that you mentioned a few other things.

When I bought Coco, I was told by this breeder that the Sire & Dam were Hip & Eye certified, and in fact that they had pioneered this practice in WA! Naturally this time I would ask for evidence.

What do you regard as the issue, with only meeting the Dam through a Fence? She claims that she doesn’t let people go any further because of diseases?

Thankyou for recommending the other Kennels. Hawksdale has a litter due next month, so I am contemplating putting my name down. They will be black, but I would prefer a healthy black to a poorly bred Chocolate.

The others have no litters planned.

I have only purchased my first purebred dog last year and his sire and dam were US imports so I was able to look up thier pedigree names in OFA and see all the health results for the sire and dam, thier litter mates, thier sire and dam ect. In Australia since we don't have an open online system I would request to be shown copies of the papers or given photocopies.

Ok hypothetical time- say I went to go meet a sire and dam for a litter being born "towards the end of the year" a few years ago at a breeder. The breeder was unable to show me the dam as "a few bitches are having litters and I don't know which one it will be" they then brought the sire to the fence. At the time they were bringing out a few pups from a litter that were 4 weeks old in a laundry basket for a meet and greet. If said pups are whelped in the house why was I not able to go to the kennel to meet the sire and dam? If the litter is not on the ground I don't see the disease risk, if they constantly have litters on the gorund well...

I have visited a few other breeders of various breeds and they all welcomed me into thier homes to meet thier dogs, even when they had pups on the ground. Obviously it is at thier discretion for hygiene resasons and not until the pups are after a certain age but never being allowed to see more then a breeders front yard ring alarm bells for me. ;)

[Golden Rules]

I think you may have been lucky with your flatcoats to date. I have a friend with a Liver flatcoat from the breeder you are referring to and the dog is the ugliest dog! It just doesn't look like a Flatcoat at all.

Nothing personal, but I have an issue with statements like that. For starters, I doubt the dog is truly ugly. I accept that you believe it doesn’t match the current interpretation of the breed standard, but so what. I believe that the Breed Standards are significantly broad to allow for some variation. Slavish devotion to a particular interpretation, has in some cases led to some unscrupulous breeders inbreeding to retain the favoured characteristics.

That said, if there is an issue of breeding with poor hips, eyes, or temperament, then I’d like to know about that.

A little odd to have taken exception to my interpretation of ugly but there you go

My friend has since said of her dog that while she loves her dearly, she was just desperate at the time to get her Liver Flat Coat, didn't want to wait and went to that breeder because the pups were readily available. She acknowledged she took a risk, and has said she would never go back there for another dog ever.

I don't show so I am not especially familiar with the exact Flat Coat standard ..... but I do know people with beautiful Flat Coats. Their coats ARE flat funnily enough whereas my friend's Liver Flattie has a short fluffy coat like my Goldie ;) Combine that with really short legs, red droopy eyes like a Basset Hound (lower eyelid issue or something) and an unusual shaped head/face ...... well let's just say it's just as well her mother loves her

Edited September 22, 2010 by Golden Rules

[Missymoo]

sigh, whateves..I cant be bothered.

[Faolmor]

Not going to get into the breeder or breed standard debate, but BigD I just wanted to say don't rule out looking interstate - even for a pet. It's not as expensive as you might think to bring in a pup, especially if you can find someone to bring one over as excess luggage. My bitch cost only $33 to bring over from QLD to WA, for example, as excess.

Take a look through the listings of breeders on the Flat Coat breed section and maybe contact a few.

[Livertreats]

Like already said if you like there stock go buy from there.largest kennel means diddly squat & they don't show there dogs they just have pups all the time.

I only say “largest” to illustrate that they are the ones with the pups, and so if I don’t take one from there it is hard to find another in WA. The whole purpose of my thread is to get other recommendations because this large breeder has such a bad rep in these forums. So why you would say “if you like their stock go buy it” is beyond me?

(Although having said that, NOBODY has offered any concrete criticism against this breeder. Except that their dogs don’t look like flatcoats.)

There is one other breeder in WA who will have some pups in a few months, so I’m happy to go there, but again I’m just not sure if the “go East” message applies to them also?

Maybe you should ask how many litters that bitch has had in the last 3 years, good starting point. Have you also asked about the hip scores?

[Livertreats]

Like already said if you like there stock go buy from there.largest kennel means diddly squat & they don't show there dogs they just have pups all the time.

I only say “largest” to illustrate that they are the ones with the pups, and so if I don’t take one from there it is hard to find another in WA. The whole purpose of my thread is to get other recommendations because this large breeder has such a bad rep in these forums. So why you would say “if you like their stock go buy it” is beyond me?

(Although having said that, NOBODY has offered any concrete criticism against this breeder. Except that their dogs don’t look like flatcoats.)

There is one other breeder in WA who will have some pups in a few months, so I’m happy to go there, but again I’m just not sure if the “go East” message applies to them also?

I have one from the breeder your talking about and I could have imported 3 dogs for the money I have spent on her due to bad breeding. Just as well I love her to bits, because she is my walking retirement fund.

I ended up importing a dog, so that should tell you something.

[megan_]

I said it because any criticism of this breeder appears to be rejected by you. If you've been perfectly happy with two dogs from this breeder why wouldn't you go back?

Because the OP has heard bad info from them and wants opinions? I bought my dog from a puppy farm (didn't know at the time) and he is the most wonderful dog ever and I adore him - but I will NEVER, ever buy another dog from them.

Just because a breeder has bred one bad dog, doesn't make them someone to avoid. Genetics is like that - no breeder can 100% guarantee that they are producing dogs that are always sound.

That said, reading between the lines, people seem to be implying that this breeder is pumping out litter after litter and not doing health testing (hip scores in particular). If that is the case, I'd avoid them like the plague. If I was the OP, I'd ring up, pretend I was a first time puppy buyer and ask about:

* What health testing do they do (not vet visits, health tests, incl hip scores)

* How many litters they produce each hear

* How many breeding bitches do they have, how are they housed, exercised, etc. Ask if you can pop around to visit and see their conditions.

[Quickasyoucan]

My understanding is that the Flatcoated Retriever Association of Victoria is the breed club in Australia (I have been doing a bit of gundog breed tyrekicking on the internet ). I would be contacting them as the first port of call as I don't think they restrict themselves to Victoria.

Honestly with a relatively rare breed, I think you need to need to be prepared to go interstate or otherwise your choices are restricted or you might face a long wait for a pup.

I think the fence comments are odd too. My sister is buying a pup in the UK she has been welcomed to visit the home both before conception of pups and once the pups reached 6 weeks old. She has met the dam and the owner's other dogs (and alpacas ). She is also getting a relatively rare breed (though more common in the UK than OZ) and each visit has been an eight hour round trip (hard to travel that far in the UK without hitting water ). This is also for a pet.

ETA spelling.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Quickasyoucan

[Guest sharynriding]

There are a few good breeders of flatcoats on DOL. You have been given some great advice with regards to contacting the Flatcoated Retriever Association of Victoria. I know you have indicated you only wish to contact breeders in WA and again, you have been given some great advice there too.

Is the bitch you are after so you can start breeding yourself? You make mention in another thread that you would breed if you could.

I would definitely be getting as much information as possible from ethical breeders who health check and have proven results whether it be in conformation showing, tracking, obedience etc.

Yes, I own a flatcoat, have shown him and do have a sound knowledge of the breed. He is not related to any dog in this country. He was imported from the UK.

[Rusky]

Like already said if you like there stock go buy from there.largest kennel means diddly squat & they don't show there dogs they just have pups all the time.

they show

[RallyValley]

Like already said if you like there stock go buy from there.largest kennel means diddly squat & they don't show there dogs they just have pups all the time.

they show

Yes I have seen them bring a golden out a few times this year. Have not seen them out with a Flat Coat though. ;)

[Rusky]

Like already said if you like there stock go buy from there.largest kennel means diddly squat & they don't show there dogs they just have pups all the time.

they show

Yes I have seen them bring a golden out a few times this year. Have not seen them out with a Flat Coat though. ;)

yes always have shown but had a break of a couple of years, doing well in the ring too ...

actually back to the OP, there are other flatcoats and a litter is due according to the breed pages, plus maybe go to the show on gundog day, chat with people watch the lovely flatcoats there and get some advice.

We had one in rescue a couple of years ago, the most stunning black dog.

[RallyValley]

Yeah that sounds like a good idea Rusky! Gundog day is the 29th of October for the Perth Royal Show

[asal]

I believe that the Breed Standards are significantly broad to allow for some variation. Slavish devotion to a particular interpretation, has in some cases led to some unscrupulous breeders inbreeding to retain the favoured characteristics.

Hi bigD..this is actually called 'linebreeding' and done properly is an accepted method of breeding. Also moving too far away from the standard defeats the purpose of breeding altogether dosnt it? Slavish devotion to the standard is what breeders should be doing imo...

I also tend to agree calling another dog ugly is not called for

I agree contact breed clubs and there are a couple of Flatcoat breeders here on DOL.

Good Luck. ;)

fascinating, ive been watching breeds being "improved' and the interpretation of the standards being reinvented for some 40 years "slavish devotion to the stanard' is not what ive been watching as heads get broader n broader or narrower n narrower depending on the fashion of the season

n thats just looking the the head, stop before i get carried away

Edited September 24, 2010 by asal

[asal]

Like already said if you like there stock go buy from there.largest kennel means diddly squat & they don't show there dogs they just have pups all the time.

I only say “largest” to illustrate that they are the ones with the pups, and so if I don’t take one from there it is hard to find another in WA. The whole purpose of my thread is to get other recommendations because this large breeder has such a bad rep in these forums. So why you would say “if you like their stock go buy it” is beyond me?

(Although having said that, NOBODY has offered any concrete criticism against this breeder. Except that their dogs don’t look like flatcoats.)

There is one other breeder in WA who will have some pups in a few months, so I’m happy to go there, but again I’m just not sure if the “go East” message applies to them also?

ever heard the saying

"make your own judgement"

you have had two dogs from this person and say you were very happy with them.

yet because this person is being badmouthed here or anywhere else (for that matter) you ignore your own experieance and believe?

I am a bad person, ive been badmouthed, why only theother day here referred to as insane or raving? forget which.

oddly enough the raving was telling a truth the vast majority do not want to be heard. let alone believe, that could cause problems if the great unwashed actually knew the truth

its the quickest way to deflect anyone taking any notice, declare the whistle blower as the "ravings"

n problem solved

Edited September 24, 2010 by asal

[megan_]

I can't believe that someone is trying to get feedback on a breeder and they are being slammed. Isn't this what we encourage people to do.

If I asked where I should get a new dog I know that 99% of people in the office would say a puppy farm (they don't know that they are, but they definitely are). They have cute, lovely dogs from these places too.

Hell, I bought my boy from Freedom Kennels via the internet. Best dog I've ever known. By your logic asal I should just continue to get dogs from there because I like my boy and I shouldn't ask questions.

Edited September 24, 2010 by megan_

[asal]

keeps the chickens n the sheep calm while the knives are being sharpened.

n yep im still laughing, some have just woken up to the new wonder legislation to stop puppy farmers is aimed directly at those who whelp their puppies in their homes.

n wonder how many have finally realised the so desperately under powered rspca have had the power to seize and remove for over 20 years simply on the observation of a special constable "to form the opinion" the animal needs urgent veterinary treatment.

no need for it to actually be anything wrong with it at all.

and bill the mug (ooops owner) for all costs incurred at TOP OF THE RATE COSTINGS.

THEY dont excercise it too often, just when its a special case, like a helping out a friend. cant let the plebs know too much can we, keep it down to a few raids so those who scream are not believed.

dont act when its glariongly obvious and explain hands are tied not enough power...... writ to your polies so we can doooooo something.

well sucked in mayhaps