Flat Coats In Wa

[YOLO]

Sorry to start a new thread. I tried to bump the previous one, but it was two years old.

We have owned 3 beautiful Flat Coats, and I am very keen to get another. We still have a 3yr old male, Jasper, who we rescued from a pound.

There is a very well-known breeder of flatties in WA, and most posts I read are harshly critical. I am naturally very interested in such criticism, and am keen to only patronise a breeder who has the best interests of the breed at heart.

However, we have owned two flatties form this breeder, and both were beautiful animals.

Ralph lived to about 12, before succumbing to arthritis in his elbows and knees.

Coco contracted a systemic fungal infection when she was about two, and that claimed her life two years later.

Both exhibited amazing temperaments.

Coco and Jasper are chocolates, and the breeder in question won’t breed two chocolates because of the likelihood of pale eyes, which suggests a responsible attitude?

In my search for another flattie, I have come across two WA youngsters who weren’t from this breeder. Both showed aggression, which I regard as being completely out of character for this breed.

If anyone can recommend a good breeder in WA, I would be most interested.

Alternatively, if anyone knows of an older or rescue bitch available, please let me know.

Edited September 18, 2010 by Big D

[flatchat]

There is no such thing as a chocolate flatcoat. The correct term as per the breed standard is liver.

I always advise people looking for flatcoats to contact the Flatcoated Retriever Association of Victoria as they have a list of reputable breeders and know who has puppies available.

You need to be prepared to wait for a puppy from a reputable breeder as most only breed a litter when they are keeping a puppy for themselves.

I hope you find what you are looking for.

[YOLO]

There is no such thing as a chocolate flatcoat. The correct term as per the breed standard is liver.

Coco’s CAWA papers say different!

I always advise people looking for flatcoats to contact the Flatcoated Retriever Association of Victoria

Not much good since I live in WA (see thread title.)

[D & D]

I always advise people looking for flatcoats to contact the Flatcoated Retriever Association of Victoria

Not much good since I live in WA (see thread title.)

I'd also advise contacting any or all breed clubs (no idea how many there are).

Not sure if your new breeder needs to be in WA.

I live in Darwin and have two Danes, both came from breeders in NSW. I'm yet to meet either breeder.

The right pup for you may not be in the next town (so to speak).

Good luck with your search

[OSoSwift]

As around, go to shows and see if Flatcoats are being shown there. If there are then ask where thay are from and you will be able to say hello and she what their personality is like.

Don't think you can only get a pup from WA a pup is only a plane flight away. I live in regional WA so my pups are flown in from Perth anyway.

There is a lovely Flatcoat down here from SA I think and another from Perth.

[Golden Rules]

I think you may have been lucky with your flatcoats to date. I have a friend with a Liver flatcoat from the breeder you are referring to and the dog is the ugliest dog! It just doesn't look like a Flatcoat at all. Her temperament is fine, no issues there. She has had eye problems though.

If you go into the Breeds 101, search for Flat Coats and maybe PM some of the posters there?

ILFC is a Doler with a Flat Coat and she will also give you advice as to who to steer clear of (her dog has cost her upwards of $10K so far).

Hope you find a perfect Flatcoat!

[moosepup]

Flat Coats are on the schedule for Wednesday the 29th at the Royal Show. You might get to see some there and meet some breeders. I'm going to check out the Chi's on Saturday myself. :D

Perth Royal Dog Show Schedule

[YOLO]

I think you may have been lucky with your flatcoats to date. I have a friend with a Liver flatcoat from the breeder you are referring to and the dog is the ugliest dog! It just doesn't look like a Flatcoat at all.

Nothing personal, but I have an issue with statements like that. For starters, I doubt the dog is truly ugly. I accept that you believe it doesn’t match the current interpretation of the breed standard, but so what. I believe that the Breed Standards are significantly broad to allow for some variation. Slavish devotion to a particular interpretation, has in some cases led to some unscrupulous breeders inbreeding to retain the favoured characteristics.

That said, if there is an issue of breeding with poor hips, eyes, or temperament, then I’d like to know about that.

[Missymoo]

I believe that the Breed Standards are significantly broad to allow for some variation. Slavish devotion to a particular interpretation, has in some cases led to some unscrupulous breeders inbreeding to retain the favoured characteristics.

Hi bigD..this is actually called 'linebreeding' and done properly is an accepted method of breeding. Also moving too far away from the standard defeats the purpose of breeding altogether dosnt it? Slavish devotion to the standard is what breeders should be doing imo...

I also tend to agree calling another dog ugly is not called for

I agree contact breed clubs and there are a couple of Flatcoat breeders here on DOL.

Good Luck. :D

[Livertreats]

There is no such thing as a chocolate flatcoat. The correct term as per the breed standard is liver.

Coco’s CAWA papers say different!

I always advise people looking for flatcoats to contact the Flatcoated Retriever Association of Victoria

Not much good since I live in WA (see thread title.)

Sorry but if Coco's is a Liver Flatcoat her CAWA registrations papers will state that her colour if Liver, certainly not chocolate. Breed standard states "Black or Liver" are the accetable colours. While we do sometimes get yellows, they are put on the limited register as you cant show them nor breed from them.

If you are interested in a "good" flatcoat then I would suggest you look outside the state and the Flat Coated Retriever Association in Victoria is a good starting point.

[YOLO]

I believe that the Breed Standards are significantly broad to allow for some variation. Slavish devotion to a particular interpretation, has in some cases led to some unscrupulous breeders inbreeding to retain the favoured characteristics.

Hi bigD..this is actually called 'linebreeding' and done properly is an accepted method of breeding. Also moving too far away from the standard defeats the purpose of breeding altogether dosnt it? Slavish devotion to the standard is what breeders should be doing imo...

I also tend to agree calling another dog ugly is not called for

I agree contact breed clubs and there are a couple of Flatcoat breeders here on DOL.

Good Luck. ;)

Docking tails and ears used to be accepted also. Linebreeding as you call it should go the same way. It can only lead to genetic degradation which is a bad thing.

I’m not talking about moving away from the standard, I’m talking about people being obsessed with the current faddish interpretation of the standard. Don’t get me wrong, dogs should always comply with the standard, and those that fail should not be bred. What concerns me is when people get fixated that all Flatties should look EXACTLY like Dog X, and then proceed to rubbish other peoples dogs, even though they still comply with the standard.

[poodlefan]

Linebreeding as you call it should go the same way. It can only lead to genetic degradation which is a bad thing.

There isn't a single purebred dog breed that hasn't been developed through line breeding.

All purebreds are a limited genepool. If you are talking about "inbreeding" which is breeding animals that are too closely related then that's another thing entirely.

If you are happy with the WA Breeder then buy a dog from there. It's certainly not where I'd be shopping but each to their own. ;)

[RallyValley]

Big D how do you think Flatties came into existance? They are no F1 cross, line breeding was used. Line breeding is the most tried and tested method to produce dogs consitant in temprament and type. Line breeding IS not inbreeding. My Chessie is line bred, his grand dam on his sires side is his great grand dam on his dams side, he has really bred back to this line, phyically and temprament wise and has been evaluated by several respected breeders from here and overseas as not just a nice Chessie by Australian standards but up there with the top quality in the states too.

This line is extremely healthy (great hips, eyes, cancer free) and had great bird sense. There are currently about 15 dogs worldwide that carry this line and his litter is the only one with the line on both sides of the pedigree (one dog with this line behind him won the national Speciality in the states last year). His COI is about 13%, much lower then the Queen of Englands.

People are more likely to be breeding to the "dog of the day" as an outcross so your argument does not make sense on any level. Think about what you are saying, my breeder has been planning this letter for 10 years, had they given in to "fads" they would have just used whoever had won the latest speciality around the time thier bitch was in season.

I don't get how you can have a "faddish" interpretation of a standrd, people can misread the standard or breed to thier own interpretation BUT at the end of the day a judge is the one who evaluates the dogs from THIER interpretation of the standard. Frank Kane is a highly respected UK gundog judge who has published a book especially about gundogs and how the stardards are meant to be interpreted following the rule fit for function, when he came out to Australia and judge he put a Flat Coat as Best in Group so obviously Flatties aren't so "faddish" or the judge from the UK would not have selected one as his BIG.

[YOLO]

Big D how do you think Flatties came into existance? They are no F1 cross, line breeding was used. Line breeding is the most tried and tested method to produce dogs consitant in temprament and type. Line breeding IS not inbreeding. My Chessie is line bred, his grand dam on his sires side is his great grand dam on his dams side, he has really bred back to this line, phyically and temprament wise and has been evaluated by several respected breeders from here and overseas as not just a nice Chessie by Australian standards but up there with the top quality in the states too.

This line is extremely healthy (great hips, eyes, cancer free) and had great bird sense. There are currently about 15 dogs worldwide that carry this line and his litter is the only one with the line on both sides of the pedigree (one dog with this line behind him won the national Speciality in the states last year). His COI is about 13%, much lower then the Queen of Englands.

People are more likely to be breeding to the "dog of the day" as an outcross so your argument does not make sense on any level. Think about what you are saying, my breeder has been planning this letter for 10 years, had they given in to "fads" they would have just used whoever had won the latest speciality around the time thier bitch was in season.

I don't get how you can have a "faddish" interpretation of a standrd, people can misread the standard or breed to thier own interpretation BUT at the end of the day a judge is the one who evaluates the dogs from THIER interpretation of the standard. Frank Kane is a highly respected UK gundog judge who has published a book especially about gundogs and how the stardards are meant to be interpreted following the rule fit for function, when he came out to Australia and judge he put a Flat Coat as Best in Group so obviously Flatties aren't so "faddish" or the judge from the UK would not have selected one as his BIG.

Sorry, we’re getting a few different topics confused here, and have diverged from the original topic, which was to find a good Flatcoat in WA. Which I am finding extremely difficult, given that everybody keeps rubbishing the largest breeder.

My POINT is that I am only concerned with getting a Flattie who complies with the standard and most importantly is free from genetic defect.

Not only do I not care if my dog doesn’t look EXACTLY like the dogs winning all the shows in the East, but I actually PREFER my flatties with feathers.

[Dogsfevr]

Like already said if you like there stock go buy from there.largest kennel means diddly squat & they don't show there dogs they just have pups all the time.

[RallyValley]

No you decided to rant and have a rubbish on everyone else cause you didn't like what you were being told. If I was getting a Flat Coat I would get one from Fetchitup or Hawksdale here in WA or Skyehaven in SA but since you were critising Flatties that win and do well you should steer clear of these health tested performance titled dogs and breeders and go ahead and get one from a breeder who has puppies for sale every week, no health clearances for hips and eyes and that won't let you meet the dam or even meet the sire without a fence between.

[YOLO]

Like already said if you like there stock go buy from there.largest kennel means diddly squat & they don't show there dogs they just have pups all the time.

I only say “largest” to illustrate that they are the ones with the pups, and so if I don’t take one from there it is hard to find another in WA. The whole purpose of my thread is to get other recommendations because this large breeder has such a bad rep in these forums. So why you would say “if you like their stock go buy it” is beyond me?

(Although having said that, NOBODY has offered any concrete criticism against this breeder. Except that their dogs don’t look like flatcoats.)

There is one other breeder in WA who will have some pups in a few months, so I’m happy to go there, but again I’m just not sure if the “go East” message applies to them also?

[poodlefan]

Like already said if you like there stock go buy from there.largest kennel means diddly squat & they don't show there dogs they just have pups all the time.

I only say “largest” to illustrate that they are the ones with the pups, and so if I don’t take one from there it is hard to find another in WA. The whole purpose of my thread is to get other recommendations because this large breeder has such a bad rep in these forums. So why you would say “if you like their stock go buy it” is beyond me?

I said it because any criticism of this breeder appears to be rejected by you. If you've been perfectly happy with two dogs from this breeder why wouldn't you go back? ;)

What's the hang up with getting a dog in WA? It's no big deal to buy a pup from interstate.

Oh and no one's going to come right out and dish dirt on a public forum. It's the fast track to a defamation suit AND a breach of forum rules.

ETA: Hawksdale are advertising a litter due next month.

Edited September 22, 2010 by poodlefan

[YOLO]

No you decided to rant and have a rubbish on everyone else cause you didn't like what you were being told. If I was getting a Flat Coat I would get one from Fetchitup or Hawksdale here in WA or Skyehaven in SA but since you were critising Flatties that win and do well you should steer clear of these health tested performance titled dogs and breeders and go ahead and get one from a breeder who has puppies for sale every week, no health clearances for hips and eyes and that won't let you meet the dam or even meet the sire without a fence between.

As I said, different subjects.

As for rant, yes I do object to people that rubbish any Dog that doesn’t look EXACTLY like Dog-X. I am looking for a pet, so whilst I want the dog to comply with the standard, I am primarily concerned with hips, eyes, etc. (If my pet turned out to be suitable for breeding, AND I could find a decent sire, then I might consider it, but that’s not my primary goal.)

I’m glad that you mentioned a few other things.

When I bought Coco, I was told by this breeder that the Sire & Dam were Hip & Eye certified, and in fact that they had pioneered this practice in WA! Naturally this time I would ask for evidence.

What do you regard as the issue, with only meeting the Dam through a Fence? She claims that she doesn’t let people go any further because of diseases?

Thankyou for recommending the other Kennels. Hawksdale has a litter due next month, so I am contemplating putting my name down. They will be black, but I would prefer a healthy black to a poorly bred Chocolate.

The others have no litters planned.

[poodlefan]

Thankyou for recommending the other Kennels. Hawksdale has a litter due next month, so I am contemplating putting my name down. They will be black, but I would prefer a healthy black to a poorly bred Chocolate.

The others have no litters planned.

Smart move. Colour should be a preference, not a priority.

And with livers being less common than black, best not limit your options.