Please Help With Gsd Aggression.

[Diva]

People didn't seem to be getting my point.

I think they get it, it would be hard to miss, it's just that some don't believe it.

;)

[Vickie]

The correction is suitable for a young GSD the timing of the correction would be essential.

I would use a prong collar and read up on early signs of aggression of dogs and at the first sign give the leash a good pop, hard enough to regain the dogs focus.

I would not go jumping in head first and have the dogs close to each other just enough till you get a clear sign of aggression then a good correction as soon as the dog is focused on you give a reward and praise and progress from there increasing the stimulation till you can have them right near each other with the dog focused only on you.

This is a good point & one that no-one has really touched on yet. I was thinking about it last night (while I was supposed to be sleeping ;) ) but didn't feel I had the necessary experience to comment. What I do know is that my dogs & many I have worked go through some stages before they reach full arousal. I know that correcting them at full arousal requires a very strong correction, whereas correcting them at the very first stage (ie as they as they are noticing something which will cause them to react or thinking about reacting) requires a much less intensive correction. I know not all dogs give warning signs, but I think most do, if you watch carefully. One of my older dogs would flick his ear back & lift his tail slightly. A mild correction then was generally effective. Letting him reach full arousal was much more difficult & required a very strong correction.

My correction nowadays consists of a well timed "Eh" and if needed a touch on the shoulder. I don't have GSD's or aggression problems but think observing body signals & timing is crucial for the training of any dog & something for Rockdog to research & consider.

Edited September 21, 2010 by Vickie

[corvus]

Yep, If you pat and cuddle the dog the or do poor dog thing. You are in theory rewarding the behavior e.g if the dog is feeling scared you are rewarding that.

It's only a reward if the behaviour in question increases in frequency. In theory. Fear is an emotion, and a very negative one. R+ acts on behaviour, not emotion. Pairing a negative emotion with rewards won't result in the dog experiencing that emotion more. That's why counter conditioning tends to work.

Edited September 21, 2010 by corvus

[SpecTraining]

RockDog,

When selecting a trainer this thought may help your decision:

Rocky you bought for a pet and a fine pet he should make, but Rocky is also a working breed and if you hadn't have bought Rocky, he could quite easily have been purchased by the police to live a working dog life. A good GSD which you have mentioned came from a respected breeder, there is every chance that Rocky has the drive and traits to be trained for anything you want a GSD to be from a loyal pet to a protection dog and anything in between.

Sure a dog is a dog, like a car is a car, but you don't take your Toyota to a Ford dealer or the local mechanic for the best opportunity to have a serious problem diagnosed and fixed properly and the same applies with your dog. IMHO, Rocky needs a working dog mechanic for the best opportunity to sort him out and working dog mechanics for the purpose of this post, don't use halti's and harnessess and refuse physical corrections. The dog mechanics who do use these tools will get you back on the road to limp home, but they won't fix your dog to the original performance that the breed is capable of.

Have a think about it????

Garry

[lovemesideways]

To all of you who have turned this thread in to a personal vendetta to try and prove that your way is the best way - shame on you :D

All anyone ever asks on these forums is for advice - not a war of words between opposing factions.

I,too, have a very reactive 14 mth GSD whose lunging was escalating. No good trying to use food or toy lures when your dog is in the red zone so tried front harness and found it very good to prevent the lunging but did not stop it.

I have now gone back to a choke chain and have strung her up several times coupled with a treat for submission and focus - can now walk past other dogs without the barking and lunging and this is only after 3 weeks. We are still a work in progress but that lasts as long as you have your dog - respect is not a given and you have to earn it from your dog and that does not always mean feeding it a treat every time it looks at you.

I will also add that I am only small and almost retirement age so to have my dog under control is paramount. I am also an experienced GSD owner/handler/trainer and love my dog to bits

Dear god...

Well, I guess you could say I certainly have a "personal vendetta" against idiots who give advice such as "choke you dog and I guarantee it will fix all their issues with aggression and make them perfect" on an internet forum. If by personal vendetta you mean, will not stand for people offering such "advice" on a public pet dog owners forum. Since I have personally seen, as has poodlefan, the affects of a GSD bite on someone who corrected them inappropriately, in my case it was someone following advice to hang their dog on the lead. Not only is it stupid advice to give, it is actually incredibly dangerous.

[poodlefan]

SpecTraining:

Rocky you bought for a pet and a fine pet he should make, but Rocky is also a working breed and if you hadn't have bought Rocky, he could quite easily have been purchased by the police to live a working dog life

And there's a very good chance he'd not have made the grade. I live next door to the head of a police dog team and I know how many dogs they look at before they find one that will suit.

Lots of GSD's lack the nerve and drive and soundness to work for a living. This is not news to anyone I thought. :D

Edited September 21, 2010 by poodlefan

[Kavik]

SpecTraining

How can you possibly know that RockDog's dog would be a suitable police dog candidate without having met the dog? :D Nowhere in the thread does it mention anything about the breeder of the dog, the selection process of picking the puppy, or anything like that. Not all GSD have the temperament to do police dog work, even those bred specifially for that type of work, many get washed out by police dog programs. Just because the dog has started to show some aggression issues it does not mean that the dog has the temperament to do police work.

[Aidan]

Rocky needs a working dog mechanic for the best opportunity to sort him out and working dog mechanics for the purpose of this post, don't use halti's and harnessess and refuse physical corrections. The dog mechanics who do use these tools will get you back on the road to limp home, but they won't fix your dog to the original performance that the breed is capable of.

Excuse me, are you saying that some of the trainers on this thread are incapable of working with GSDs on the basis of tools they may or may not use depending on the individual dog and/or client?

OK, I sometimes use harnesses. Are you saying that I am incompetent with GSDs because of this and that I misrepresent myself as a trainer? Have you got any evidence to prove this?

Edited September 21, 2010 by Aidan

[Rusky]

The good news is that I finally found Honey Gross-Richardson's number and had a chat with her for an hour and ten minutes!

She said to come and see her at the GSD homegrounds on the Sunday, and come along to the reactive dog class on the Wednesday, and she also MAY be able to see me if I go to Geraldton the following weekend.

I hold Honey in very high esteem, so I'm really pleased about that

excellent :D

[Skye GSD]

The only thing that two trainers will agree on is that the third trainer is doing it all wrong - same thing is happening here

Not everyone has the funds to see a behaviourist at the drop of a hat so in the meantime people who have the courage to use this forum would like some constructive information based on OP's experience with aggressive dogs.

Funny that poodlefan would gladly string up a GSD that attacked her dogs but is totally against a GSD owner doing it - see, I am even lowering my standards to match the theme :D

[Kavik]

The only thing that two trainers will agree on is that the third trainer is doing it all wrong - same thing is happening here

Not everyone has the funds to see a behaviourist at the drop of a hat so in the meantime people who have the courage to use this forum would like some constructive information based on OP's experience with aggressive dogs.

Funny that poodlefan would gladly string up a GSD that attacked her dogs but is totally against a GSD owner doing it - see, I am even lowering my standards to match the theme :D

From what I can see in poodlefan's post she did it as an emergency measure to prevent the GSD from attacking and injuring her OWN dogs, when the owner of the GSD could not. She is not suggeting it be done as a first port of call on someone's own pet or on a regular basis. She also stated that when given back to the owner, once the lead was released, the dog bit its owner . . . not really what you want.

[Diva]

The only thing that two trainers will agree on is that the third trainer is doing it all wrong - same thing is happening here ;)

Not everyone has the funds to see a behaviourist at the drop of a hat so in the meantime people who have the courage to use this forum would like some constructive information based on OP's experience with aggressive dogs.

Funny that poodlefan would gladly string up a GSD that attacked her dogs but is totally against a GSD owner doing it - see, I am even lowering my standards to match the theme

It's a little more than that here. People are saying that one of the techniques being promoted is too potentially dangerous to recommend without direct knowledge of the dog and handler involved. OK as an emergency control measure in a crisis maybe, but grossly irresponsible to recommend as a training technique sight unseen.

They are saying the advice could get the handler or the dog seriously hurt. And that is more than a disagreement over technique, that's a disagreement over duty of care and personal responsibility.

The other theme I read in this thread is that GSDs are different to other breeds, that dominance and sharpness are desirable characteristics in a good GSD, and therefore only experienced GSD trainers can handle what the breed 'experts' on here see as typical GSD adolescent aggression. The message is that aggression is so common and so stereotypical in GSDs that ways to manage it can be reliably prescribed over the internet, by GSD trainers only and again sight unseen, and they need to be very forceful methods indeed.

I don't buy that last argument, but it's the most convincing damn argument for restrictions on the ownership of a particular breed I have heard for a long time, given that it comes from people claiming decades of breed experience. I'm saddened that a breed community that has been through that once isn't more careful in how it presents itself.

Edited September 21, 2010 by Diva

[Aidan]

Funny that poodlefan would gladly string up a GSD that attacked her dogs but is totally against a GSD owner doing it -

Where did PF say that she was totally against a GSD owner doing it? Where did anyone at all say that?

[Kavik]

The people who I know personally who would string up a dog for aggressive responses are:

1) security guards

2) prepared to be bitten

3) prepared to take the fight to the dog and go as far as necessary to win if the dog comes up leash at them

Not a lot of people (including me!) are willing to do those things

[megan_]

The other theme I read in this thread is that GSDs are different to other breeds, that dominance and sharpness are desirable characteristics in a good GSD, and therefore only experienced GSD trainers can handle what the breed 'experts' on here see as typical GSD adolescent aggression. The message is that aggression is so common and so stereotypcial in GSDs that ways to manage it can be reliably prescribed over the internet, again sight unseen, and they need to be very forceful methods indeed.

Great post. People can't have it both ways - a lot of GSD fanciers would be suprised and upset that aggression was considered "normal" and "typical" of their breed? Next time someone posts "Is a GSD right for me?" or similar they should get directed to this thread?

Reading the breed standard - and not being a show/breeder type person I'm not an expert on these things - aggression of any kind would be a fault, certainly not normal? Even for a working dog, "aggression" needs to be controlled and not "I'm gunno kill the next fluffy that walks past"?

The OP is seeing a behaviourist, that is great. Behaviourists aren't luxuries when dealing with aggression. The only sound advice while waiting to see one is to muzzle the dog or keep them on your own property 24/7. Anything else can end in tears (usually for the smaller dog).

Poodlefan - some people seem to be very hung up on the fact that you own - gasp - poodles. They can't seem to look beyond that and listen to your advice. Maybe a change in name is required? GSDLover, RottieLady or something similar? Maybe then they can look past their prejudices and read the advice for what it is .

[SpecTraining]

SpecTraining:

Rocky you bought for a pet and a fine pet he should make, but Rocky is also a working breed and if you hadn't have bought Rocky, he could quite easily have been purchased by the police to live a working dog life

And there's a very good chance he'd not have made the grade. I live next door to the head of a police dog team and I know how many dogs they look at before they find one that will suit.

Lots of GSD's lack the nerve and drive and soundness to work for a living. This is not news to anyone I thought.

I made that comment to highlight that the dog is a working breed and "may" have working traits which many do. Often people believe because a working breed is purchased for a pet, that working traits will be non existant which is not true and often leads IMHO to incorrect training techniques. I have seen many pet trainers refuse to leash correct a GSD because they had a Golden Retriever shut down from a correction using the basis that the GSD being a pet shouldn't need a leash correction, or because it is a pet, it will shut down as a result.

[SpecTraining]

SpecTraining

How can you possibly know that RockDog's dog would be a suitable police dog candidate without having met the dog? Nowhere in the thread does it mention anything about the breeder of the dog, the selection process of picking the puppy, or anything like that. Not all GSD have the temperament to do police dog work, even those bred specifially for that type of work, many get washed out by police dog programs. Just because the dog has started to show some aggression issues it does not mean that the dog has the temperament to do police work.

I have explained that in my previous post.

[Kavik]

SpecTraining:

Rocky you bought for a pet and a fine pet he should make, but Rocky is also a working breed and if you hadn't have bought Rocky, he could quite easily have been purchased by the police to live a working dog life

And there's a very good chance he'd not have made the grade. I live next door to the head of a police dog team and I know how many dogs they look at before they find one that will suit.

Lots of GSD's lack the nerve and drive and soundness to work for a living. This is not news to anyone I thought.

I made that comment to highlight that the dog is a working breed and "may" have working traits which many do. Often people believe because a working breed is purchased for a pet, that working traits will be non existant which is not true and often leads IMHO to incorrect training techniques. I have seen many pet trainers refuse to leash correct a GSD because they had a Golden Retriever shut down from a correction using the basis that the GSD being a pet shouldn't need a leash correction, or because it is a pet, it will shut down as a result.

It would have been clearer if you had written this instead ;)

[SpecTraining]

Rocky needs a working dog mechanic for the best opportunity to sort him out and working dog mechanics for the purpose of this post, don't use halti's and harnessess and refuse physical corrections. The dog mechanics who do use these tools will get you back on the road to limp home, but they won't fix your dog to the original performance that the breed is capable of.

Excuse me, are you saying that some of the trainers on this thread are incapable of working with GSDs on the basis of tools they may or may not use depending on the individual dog and/or client?

OK, I sometimes use harnesses. Are you saying that I am incompetent with GSDs because of this and that I misrepresent myself as a trainer? Have you got any evidence to prove this?

I can't comment on others capablilities here Aidan having never seen their work and would be wrong of me to do so. You are welcome to use a harness if you like them or any other tools and methods you wish to use. The people that do train GSD's on halti's, harnessess and refuse to physically correct them as I mentioned, I am yet to see these training methods and tools produce a dog that I consider has good, relaible behaviour. But what you consider good and what I may expect could be a competely different thing we are focusing on.

I have seen some excellent harness work whilst it is on the dog. That's no good for me needing a dog to work off leash for example.

Garry

[Kavik]

This also might have worked, without suggesting that the dog necessarily has the drives/nerves/stability/ideal temp for police work

GSD being a working breed have been bred to do many tasks for people, and as such may have some drives and instincts that if not properly channeled can cause problems, such as prey drive and protective instincts. They are an active and intelligent breed, and need an outlet for mental and physical activities. As such, it would be beneficial to seek help from someone who has experience with aggression within working breeds such as GSDs as they will have a greater understanding of the breed's characteristics.