Please Help With Gsd Aggression.

[SpecTraining]

'poodlefan' date='20th Sep 2010 - 04:52 PM' post='4824999']

LMS:

Well Garry (such a coincidence you've only just joined, and your first post is defending Fiona?)

Garry is either cavalry from another forum or another of Malsrocks's personas. ;)

Poodlefan

I actually joined a month ago and popped in today for a read, this thread I found interesting and I decided to make a post for two reasons.

1. I thought it was good advice for people to express concern that Fiona had advised an inexperienced owner of a blocking technique that has the potential to go wrong if carried out incorrectly which is my advice also on a pet dog forum.

2. There is a difference between flaming someone for what she did as I mentioned above, but to flame the method she advised is what prompted me to post. Air blocking in the training of working dogs is common practice and for a person with years of working dog experience the method is not outrageous to them as the pet owners and trainers invisage. However, people do as the OP has along with many others choose working dogs for pets which often come with behavioural challenges that the average pet owner lacking experience with these dogs can't handle.

Ultimately yes, a trainer needs to see the dog to make an accurate assessment of behaviour and some posted outrage how Fiona must be off the planet to make an assessment without seeing the dog. The behaviour of the OP's dog is common for a young GSD that has working potential and they often behave in exactly that manner and worse when not conditioned to avoid this escalation from a pup. This dog could be just as well at home on the end of a police officers leash as it is on the OP's couch, it is a GSD, a working dog after all.

How a pet dog trainer and a working dog trainer may view a situation in the same dog and behaviour can be miles apart and at different ends of the spectrum is all that I wanted to point out. There is no cavalry involved at all, I agree that the method of correction was not the place here to recommend it, but from a working dog mentality I understand where the suggestion is coming from

Pretty much every person who "flamed" Fiona, stated they did not have problem with the methodology itself, but rather the fact that she would recommend it:

1. on a dog she hasn't seen and assessed

2. to an insufficiently experienced person

What is the point of putting such ideas into a persons head, who is clearly not a working dog handler or expereinced dog trainer?

What is even worse, was that she didn't even bother to get all the details (eg the dog being walked on a halti, not a collar) and had the OP actually tried the suggested method, injury to handler and / or dog may have occured. Thankfully the OP was sensible enough not to take on board this particular piece of advice.

Regarding your comments about GSDs, I don't think the OP ever said the dog was working line? The GSD is an all rounder and should make a perfectly suitable family pet. I rather think the issue is with the dog being attacked/annoyed by the other dog (spongey) rather than a breed specific thing.

I guess they don't realise how inexperienced a new pet owner can be perhaps, hence my original post????.

GSD's don't have to be working line dogs to exhibit aggressive behaviour especially if it has been allowed to escalate

[SpecTraining]

Although the dog lives in a pet home, it still carries working traits is what I mean and some of those traits as a pet can be a handful to manange for a new pet owner until gaining experience how to train and manage it. I don't know how air blocking would work on small dogs, as they don't present the challenge to physically restrain them as a big powerful dog does, and have never tried it to be honest. Air blocking something I use with unpredicatable dog's that have an occasional unexpected lunge out of the blue and generally works well in those cases.

A predictable dog, I prefer to use distance where they don't lunge and build their confidence to lessen the distance as you go and the dog learns how to handle the stress of a once reactive target. Throwing a dog in the deep end to purposely lunge to perform an air block is not what I would consider effective training, no.

It's a bit hypocritical IMO. Malsrock has just argued in another thread that there is a massive difference between WL GSDs and SL GSDs, yet here we are saying that no - a SL is still a working dog

In an emergency situation I would do anything to keep my dog safe and keep other people/dogs safe but I don't see why air blocking should ever be the first choice training method for ANY dog.

Plenty of showline's around that can work and are still used by the police. There is more "chance" of obtaining a working line dog than a showline that can work, but I suppose it depends upon what sort of work you need it for??

[aussielover]

GSD's don't have to be working line dogs to exhibit aggressive behaviour especially if it has been allowed to escalate

well obviously, like any dog.....

You can't determine the type and cause of the aggression just based on breed alone though.

You kept talking about "working" and police handlers so I thought that you were under the impression the dog was working line?

Though I realise that the dog may have potential for that sort of thing? is that what you were getting at?

[SpecTraining]

GSD's don't have to be working line dogs to exhibit aggressive behaviour especially if it has been allowed to escalate

well obviously, like any dog.....

You can't determine the type and cause of the aggression just based on breed alone though.

You kept talking about "working" and police handlers so I thought that you were under the impression the dog was working line?

Though I realise that the dog may have potential for that sort of thing? is that what you were getting at?

Yes. I was referring to people saying that no way can anyone determine aggressive reponses without seeing the dog. Essentially you can't be completely sure of course not, but the behaviour of the OP's dog is very consistant with a young dog having working drives with the behaviour being allowed to escalate.

Experienced working dog owners watch for this behaviour as a pup and train them out of the behaviour early to become a relaible pet. It's not uncommon for first time GSD owners to overlook which appears as a playful puppy wrestle and can turn into a dog who likes to fight and looks for a fight very easily. Many breeders will ask puppy buyers if they have had GSD's before especially if their bloodlines have working drives and is what they are talking about. It's how a good breeder will choose a more submissive or quieter puppy for an inexperienced owner.

[corvus]

[RockDog]

Gentle Leaders can definitely come off and should always be coupled. They do provide good leverage but can also increase frustration, if you feel this may be the case then a front-attaching harness might be useful (I couple these too, using a double-ended leash or coupler attached to a martingale or well fitted flat collar). See what the behaviourist says.

Muzzles can sometimes be necessary but my preference is that you pretend your dog isn't wearing one; i.e you don't do anything you wouldn't do without the muzzle. Potential problems can arise when people try to do things they wouldn't do if the dog was not muzzled, e.g letting their dog greet dogs they aren't sure about because they don't think anything can really go wrong.

Good point about the GL possibly increasing frustration. Though he's worn it on and off all his life, so I'm not super concerned.

Something to think about.

I did have a choke chain lying around for ages, but I think I got rid of it. So I'll use the coupler on the flat collar.

Some good points coming up on this thread, and good advice, here and in PMs, which I'm really grateful for

[RockDog]

....a front-attaching harness might be useful

Yep, have had one on order from UK for a week, they're just waiting for me to pay for it

It's called a "Perfect Fit Harness" and has a front-attaching D ring as well as on the dog's back.

[RockDog]

RockDog - it sounds from your recent posts like you are still taking risks by letting your dog off-lead when you are in 'quiet areas' and you are pretty sure the coast is clear.....

....So often people approach from BEHIND you with another dog. It's just not possible to stop that from happening.

Nah, too scared to let him off leash now. Poor Rocky-Rock-Rock ;)

If I'm going to be playing fetch with him or let him have a dip in the water, I have him on a 20m long line. I put him in a sit, walk to the end of the leash, and throw about 10 metres away from me, so that he at least gets a 30m run, then back to me and start again.

But I see that another poster has quite rightly pointed out the danger of this too!

Oh dear, can't win.

Fetch in the back yard it is, then, lol

[RockDog]

OK, the bad news is that I've been advised not to have anything to do with the behaviourist I spoke to this morning and had arranged to see twice while I'm in Perth.

Bugga!

The good news is that I finally found Honey Gross-Richardson's number and had a chat with her for an hour and ten minutes!

She said to come and see her at the GSD homegrounds on the Sunday, and come along to the reactive dog class on the Wednesday, and she also MAY be able to see me if I go to Geraldton the following weekend.

I hold Honey in very high esteem, so I'm really pleased about that

Back to the drawing board with finding a suitable behaviourist though ;)

Edited September 22, 2010 by RockDog

[RockDog]

[huski]

OK, the bad news is that I've been advised not to have anything to do with Danielle, who is the behaviourist I spoke to this morning and had arranged to see twice while I'm in Perth.

Bugga!

The good news is that I finally found Honey Gross-Richardson's number and had a chat with her for an hour and ten minutes!

She said to come and see her at the GSD homegrounds on the Sunday, and come along to the reactive dog class on the Wednesday, and she also MAY be able to see me if I go to Geraldton the following weekend.

I hold Honey in very high esteem, so I'm really pleased about that

Back to the drawing board with finding a suitable behaviourist though ;)

Who told you that? If you were happy and comfortable with Danielle then you should go with her. Guess it really depends how much that persons advice means to you.

There are people who will tell you never to touch X trainer with a ten foot pole and there could be ten times the number of people who will recommend them. I wouldn't necessarily be put off by one person's recommendation.

[Skye GSD]

To all of you who have turned this thread in to a personal vendetta to try and prove that your way is the best way - shame on you

All anyone ever asks on these forums is for advice - not a war of words between opposing factions.

I,too, have a very reactive 14 mth GSD whose lunging was escalating. No good trying to use food or toy lures when your dog is in the red zone so tried front harness and found it very good to prevent the lunging but did not stop it.

I have now gone back to a choke chain and have strung her up several times coupled with a treat for submission and focus - can now walk past other dogs without the barking and lunging and this is only after 3 weeks. We are still a work in progress but that lasts as long as you have your dog - respect is not a given and you have to earn it from your dog and that does not always mean feeding it a treat every time it looks at you.

I will also add that I am only small and almost retirement age so to have my dog under control is paramount. I am also an experienced GSD owner/handler/trainer and love my dog to bits ;)

[poodlefan]

To all of you who have turned this thread in to a personal vendetta to try and prove that your way is the best way - shame on you

All anyone ever asks on these forums is for advice - not a war of words between opposing factions.

I,too, have a very reactive 14 mth GSD whose lunging was escalating. No good trying to use food or toy lures when your dog is in the red zone so tried front harness and found it very good to prevent the lunging but did not stop it.

I have now gone back to a choke chain and have strung her up several times coupled with a treat for submission and focus - can now walk past other dogs without the barking and lunging and this is only after 3 weeks. We are still a work in progress but that lasts as long as you have your dog - respect is not a given and you have to earn it from your dog and that does not always mean feeding it a treat every time it looks at you. I will also add that I am only small and almost retirement age so to have my dog under control is paramount. I am also an experienced GSD owner/handler/trainer and love my dog to bits ;)

And what a person who asked for advice deserves is not to be told something that might put them in danger. There is no vendetta. There is only this:

IT IS DANGEROUS TO GIVE ADVICE ON DEALING WITH AGGRESSION IN A DOG YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN

ALL GERMAN SHEPHERDS ARE NOT ALIKE. ALL GSD HANDLERS ARE NOT ALIKE. AGGRESSION HAS A RANGE OF TRIGGERS AND THERE IS NO ONE SIZE FITS ALL APPROACH TO DEALING WITH IT.

Lets not turn this thread into a 'working v show line' GSD debate or pretend that there's something unique about GSD aggression that makes any experienced GSD owner be able to prescribe a cure without ever seeing the dog.

If you think this was about positive vs negative reinforcment then you have clearly not read my posts no those of quite a few other posters. Your sarcasm about stuffing dogs with treats is not only insulting but misplaced.

I have kicked and strung up GSDs who have targetted my dogs. Not a treat in sight on those occasions . :p

Edited September 20, 2010 by poodlefan

[Nekhbet]

The OP has been told to use a behaviourist and she will. Aggression + internet advice only = fail

As for muzzling, you should. You are building frustration anyway by not allowing your dog to 1) reach its target and 2) not showing it small dogs are not a target. So for the other dogs safety muzzle yours incase you have no choice in the distance between your dog and another.

I know the lead you are using it is the Ezy Dog bungee leash. As for front clip harnesses and such why not try a check chain again. If your dog lunges he will be corrected and your bungee lead will take up the slack. A pinch collar would be better if you have a bad back. Either way you have a responsibility to society to minimise harm, and that means your dog that wants to bite small dogs should be muzzled, a Buster plastic muzzle is great http://www.atozvetsupply.com/Buster-Nylon-.../682-jrj884.htm very light, they weigh almost nothing, and withstand a lot of abuse without breaking. Put some treats in there when you clip him in and he'll love it.

I think the other two trainers points are, and I somewhat agree, we've all seen shepherds that do this to some degree. THey do follow a certain pattern of behaviour at times, thats why we have purebreed they have an element of predictability. I'm not saying we give full advice to the OP because we have not seen the dog and owners tend to give their own interpretation of behaviours which is usually different to what is actually happening. But to make an assumption that this is something that has snowballed due to lack of control, training and with maturity is not all out there.

[siks3]

Hi RockDog,

What you need to do is knock that behaviour on the head fast as it will esculate. The "best and fastest" way to stop the behaviour is using negative reinforcement to teach the dog that acting aggressively, he's going to cop something he will respect. You need him on a leash and watch for an aggressive reaction and the moment he goes to lunge, lift the leash straight up, front legs off the ground with harsh NO command and air block him, hold him up until he looks at you, then slowly release him to the ground. If he goes at it again, hoist him up again with another NO command and he will get the message that aggression will not be tolorated under any circumstances.

If you feel uneasy about the process, best hire a good trainer who is experienced in K9 type training of working dogs, but be careful hiring clicker and treat trainers for correction of that behaviour as they won't fix it. A good quality GSD can handle that type of correction and will respect you for taking a leading role in your relationship and will transform the aggressive reactions quickly.

Good advice right there.

The correction is suitable for a young GSD the timing of the correction would be essential.

I would use a prong collar and read up on early signs of aggression of dogs and at the first sign give the leash a good pop, hard enough to regain the dogs focus.

I would not go jumping in head first and have the dogs close to each other just enough till you get a clear sign of aggression then a good correction as soon as the dog is focused on you give a reward and praise and progress from there increasing the stimulation till you can have them right near each other with the dog focused only on you.

This is a bit much for the average pet owner i would seriously as mentioned above get a good K9 trainer to help you out.

Another important thing to add is never pat a dog or show the dog any form of attention after a dog fight as you run the risk of making the dog fearful give them a chance to shake them selves off and go from there.

[poodlefan]

Good advice right there.

The correction is suitable for a young GSD the timing of the correction would be essential.

I would use a prong collar and read up on early signs of aggression of dogs and at the first sign give the leash a good pop, hard enough to regain the dogs focus.

I would not go jumping in head first and have the dogs close to each other just enough till you get a clear sign of aggression then a good correction as soon as the dog is focused on you give a reward and praise and progress from there increasing the stimulation till you can have them right near each other with the dog focused only on you.

This is a bit much for the average pet owner i would seriously as mentioned above get a good K9 trainer to help you out.

Another important thing to add is never pat a dog or show the dog any form of attention after a dog fight as you run the risk of making the dog fearful give them a chance to shake them selves off and go from there.

Glad you added that qualifyer siks. If working dog folk want to get themselves bit that's one thing. Any pet that's bitten its owner seriously doesn't have much of a future. ;)

Can't see how patting a dog in a high state of arousal is is going to make it fearful though. Must be a GSD thing

[Red Fox]

Good advice right there.

The correction is suitable for a young GSD the timing of the correction would be essential.

I would use a prong collar and read up on early signs of aggression of dogs and at the first sign give the leash a good pop, hard enough to regain the dogs focus.

I would not go jumping in head first and have the dogs close to each other just enough till you get a clear sign of aggression then a good correction as soon as the dog is focused on you give a reward and praise and progress from there increasing the stimulation till you can have them right near each other with the dog focused only on you.

This is a bit much for the average pet owner i would seriously as mentioned above get a good K9 trainer to help you out.

Another important thing to add is never pat a dog or show the dog any form of attention after a dog fight as you run the risk of making the dog fearful give them a chance to shake them selves off and go from there.

Glad you added that qualifyer siks. If working dog folk want to get themselves bit that's one thing. Any pet that's bitten its owner seriously doesn't have much of a future.

Can't see how patting a dog in a high state of arousal is is going to make it fearful though. Must be a GSD thing ;)

I think Siks3 means not to coddle the dog and do the whole "oh poor dog, it's okay, it's okay" thing

[koalathebear]

IT IS DANGEROUS TO GIVE ADVICE ON DEALING WITH AGGRESSION IN A DOG YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN

ALL GERMAN SHEPHERDS ARE NOT ALIKE. ALL GSD HANDLERS ARE NOT ALIKE. AGGRESSION HAS A RANGE OF TRIGGERS AND THERE IS NO ONE SIZE FITS ALL APPROACH TO DEALING WITH IT.

PF: I always love revisiting your posts after you edit them. They always change and this time there was a dramatic colour change, too!!! ;)

[poodlefan]

IT IS DANGEROUS TO GIVE ADVICE ON DEALING WITH AGGRESSION IN A DOG YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN

ALL GERMAN SHEPHERDS ARE NOT ALIKE. ALL GSD HANDLERS ARE NOT ALIKE. AGGRESSION HAS A RANGE OF TRIGGERS AND THERE IS NO ONE SIZE FITS ALL APPROACH TO DEALING WITH IT.

PF: I always love revisiting your posts after you edit them. They always change and this time there was a dramatic colour change, too!!! ;)

People didn't seem to be getting my point.

[siks3]

Good advice right there.

The correction is suitable for a young GSD the timing of the correction would be essential.

I would use a prong collar and read up on early signs of aggression of dogs and at the first sign give the leash a good pop, hard enough to regain the dogs focus.

I would not go jumping in head first and have the dogs close to each other just enough till you get a clear sign of aggression then a good correction as soon as the dog is focused on you give a reward and praise and progress from there increasing the stimulation till you can have them right near each other with the dog focused only on you.

This is a bit much for the average pet owner i would seriously as mentioned above get a good K9 trainer to help you out.

Another important thing to add is never pat a dog or show the dog any form of attention after a dog fight as you run the risk of making the dog fearful give them a chance to shake them selves off and go from there.

Glad you added that qualifyer siks. If working dog folk want to get themselves bit that's one thing. Any pet that's bitten its owner seriously doesn't have much of a future.

Can't see how patting a dog in a high state of arousal is is going to make it fearful though. Must be a GSD thing ;)

I think Siks3 means not to coddle the dog and do the whole "oh poor dog, it's okay, it's okay" thing

Yep, If you pat and cuddle the dog the or do poor dog thing. You are in theory rewarding the behavior e.g if the dog is feeling scared you are rewarding that.