Please Help With Gsd Aggression.

[RockDog]

I took Rocky down the beach this evening on a 20m long line.

I called him to me and pulled on his Gentle Leader slightly.

I hope you dont combine those two pieces of equipment together!!!!

Nah, we'd just got out of the car, still in the car park, and I hadn't transferred him onto the long line (on his flat collar) yet.

Good idea for checking though. Thanks.

[Brennan's Mum]

Thanks corvus.

I've actually ordered the TTouch book by Linda Tellington-Jones, should be here in a week or two.

I don't know much about it at all, but that's good to hear that I may be able to use it in Rocky's aroused states.

Thanks for the idea.

I haven't got Control Unleashed yet either, but plan to when I can find a cheap copy. :-)

Cheers for the vote of confidence. Bit hard when you're new to this and don't know what to believe. :D

Karen Overall's Protocol for Relaxation is handy to do at home too I have a copy printed out.

I have Control Unleashed and it is a good book.

Have you got ''Click To Calm '' by Emma Parsons? I have not got that yet but it is on my wish-list.

You can do this I think things will be much easier once you have seen a behaviourist then you can start working on the techniques and advice they give you.

[lovemesideways]

Not sure why everyone has their knickers in a knot over Fiona's post.

The OP asked for advice on a public forum and they got it.

It is up to them to decide whether to blindly follow advice given over the internet (or read in a book, or given to them by some random person they met in the dog park) or to use their brain and see a professional instead.

Because Fiona implied that she knew best and that her method was a surefire guarantee to work. And it was potentially very dangerous.

When folk start sprouting their credentials, its time to step in and provide some cautionary advice.

By all means provide some cautionary advice, I don't disagree with that at all. But there has been a lot more than that going on in this thread ... more like flaming IMO

PF, just saw your edit. In Fionas defence she did state in the same quote;

"I have layed it on the line with a process that will stop the dog's aggression instantly and allow her to control the situation until she has the opportunity to seek professional help and I make no apologies for that"

To me it seems that she has suggested it more as a way to get a handle on the dog in an emergency situation, not as a cure all.

Fiona has consistently reiterated her magical cure all of choking a dog the entire way through this thread. Doesn't matter that I mentioned as did Poodlefan that we both know people who have had pieces ripped out of them, when they tried to correct a GSD.

You need him on a leash and watch for an aggressive reaction and the moment he goes to lunge, lift the leash straight up, front legs off the ground with harsh NO command and air block him, hold him up until he looks at you, then slowly release him to the ground. If he goes at it again, hoist him up again with another NO command and he will get the message that aggression will not be tolorated under any circumstances.

No mention of the fact the dog needs to be on a flat collar (Im assuming). So good thing the OP, who walks her dog on a gentle leader, didn't give this a shot.

what I have recommended will fix it. In fact, a couple of air blocks is usually enough to stop an aggressive lunger altogether and provide a calmer and safer environment to work with other methods of redirection and conditioning.

Wow I'm sure the hundreds of trainers who work daily with aggressive dogs will LOVE to know that if you simply choke a dog, it fixes all aggression problems!!

At the chain link fence when the dog approached, the moment Rocky made a lunging movement, you command NO without emotion and lift the leash straight up and air block him until he settles and gently let him down when he relaxes then praise him for calm, then move away from the other dog to create some distance and don't allow him to greet the dog.

Again recommending without any previous knowledge of the dog or owner, Choke your dog.

I don't need to see the dog, it's common adolecent GSD behaviour, albiet can escalate to serious aggression over the next 6 months or so if allowed to continue.

Apparently just because the dog is a GSD, fiona can understand everything about it. Doesn't matter that behaviour is never explained by breed alone.

You don't have to always see the dog and in this case, the OP provided enough information in a very detailed description of the dog's behaviour to understand exactly what the dog is doing :D

And again, she knows everything based on a couple paragraphs. And yet, she didn't know that the OP has back problems that could act up severly if she was trying to string a large male GSD into the air to choke him.

Edited September 20, 2010 by lovemesideways

[Red Fox]

PF, just saw your edit. In Fionas defence she did state in the same quote;

"I have layed it on the line with a process that will stop the dog's aggression instantly and allow her to control the situation until she has the opportunity to seek professional help and I make no apologies for that"

To me it seems that she has suggested it more as a way to get a handle on the dog in an emergency situation, not as a cure all.

It was suggested as a method of managing the behaviour until a professional was called in. It was a potentially disastrous suggestion and any trainer worth a damn would never have made it.

Perhaps. But she didn't claim to be a professional, just said that she had 20 years of breed experience. It's up to the OP to make the right decision.

Knowing that in an ABSOLUTE EMERGENCY (as in your large dog is about to drag you across a busy highway and maul a SWF on the other side) that you can take the power out of the dog by lifting him up by his collar is not such a bad thing. We can all go on to say "The dog should be muzzled/seperated from other dogs/see a professional, blah, blah, blah" But what if the OP doesn't do that? What if tomorrow there is an owner with a large GSD about to attack a smaller dog and the owner has no idea on how to stop it?

I'm not condoning Fionas method, but I wont disagree with it either.

[Diva]

Cheers for the vote of confidence. Bit hard when you're new to this and don't know what to believe.

I'm another one who thinks you sound very sensible. But conflicting advice can be very confusing, and undermine your own confidence. I sincerely hope you find the right trainer to help you through it. He is such a young dog I am sure with the right help you will have a very good chance to get him back on track.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Diva

[Red Fox]

lol, stop editing your posts PF. I am a slow typer and it's confusing me :D

[lovemesideways]

H In the owners shoes, to have someone with Fiona's experience walking up the driveway to help train your dog and teach you how to handle it properly would be godsend relief, she's definitely a good candidate to achieve a great result, but again I say, not over the internet, and in person only.

Well Garry (such a coincidence you've only just joined, and your first post is defending Fiona?)

I certainly wouldn't let someone like Fiona, who thinks she can analyse a dog and give appropriate advice for aggression over the Internet, anywhere near my dogs or any of my friends dogs.

Since lets see, my friends GSD who suddenly started becoming very snappy and growling at dogs and people. I'm sure she would have just slipped a check chain on him and gone to work "air blocking" the crap out of that dog. Oh but woops that the dog actually have a tumour growing on his spine, which when removed he went straight back to his loveable self.

Obviously you don't need to ask any questions though. If someone asks for advice on stopping an aggressive dog, just choke them right?

[poodlefan]

PF, just saw your edit. In Fionas defence she did state in the same quote;

"I have layed it on the line with a process that will stop the dog's aggression instantly and allow her to control the situation until she has the opportunity to seek professional help and I make no apologies for that"

To me it seems that she has suggested it more as a way to get a handle on the dog in an emergency situation, not as a cure all.

It was suggested as a method of managing the behaviour until a professional was called in. It was a potentially disastrous suggestion and any trainer worth a damn would never have made it.

Perhaps. But she didn't claim to be a professional, just said that she had 20 years of breed experience. It's up to the OP to make the right decision.

Knowing that in an ABSOLUTE EMERGENCY (as in your large dog is about to drag you across a busy highway and maul a SWF on the other side) that you can take the power out of the dog by lifting him up by his collar is not such a bad thing. We can all go on to say "The dog should be muzzled/seperated from other dogs/see a professional, blah, blah, blah" But what if the OP doesn't do that? What if tomorrow there is an owner with a large GSD about to attack a smaller dog and the owner has no idea on how to stop it?

I'm not condoning Fionas method, but I wont disagree with it either.

You can also have the dog attack you. At least two of us have seen it first hand and Aidan posted a rather splendid example.

LMS:

Well Garry (such a coincidence you've only just joined, and your first post is defending Fiona?)

Garry is either cavalry from another forum or another of Malsrocks's personas.

Edited September 20, 2010 by poodlefan

[Red Fox]

Fiona has consistently reiterated her magical cure all of choking a dog the entire way through this thread. Doesn't matter that I mentioned as did Poodlefan that we both know people who have had pieces ripped out of them, when they tried to correct a GSD.

So you have said your bit and Fiona has said hers. The OP has read both and has the brains to weigh up the situation and make a sensible decision.

There is no need to keep personally attacking Fiona because she has a different opinion to you. The only thing that will achieve is to get this thread deleted.

[poodlefan]

lol, stop editing your posts PF. I am a slow typer and it's confusing me :D

I'm notorious for it... Sorry.

[poodlefan]

Fiona has consistently reiterated her magical cure all of choking a dog the entire way through this thread. Doesn't matter that I mentioned as did Poodlefan that we both know people who have had pieces ripped out of them, when they tried to correct a GSD.

So you have said your bit and Fiona has said hers. The OP has read both and has the brains to weigh up the situation and make a sensible decision.

There is no need to keep personally attacking Fiona because she has a different opinion to you. The only thing that will achieve is to get this thread deleted.

Given the advice dispensed early on, that's probably not a bad thing. I shudder to think what might happen if Fiona's advice was actually followed.

[Red Fox]

You can also have the dog attack you. At least two of us have seen it first hand and Aidan posted a rather splendid example.

Yep, you can. But in the example I posted you'd be weighing up being bitten against being dragged across a busy road and/or you dog mauling another. I know which option I'd pick in that scenario.

Or lets change the situation and suggest that your large dog lunges (unexpectantly and aggressively) at a child. Do you choose to A. get a handle on that dog and quickly, possibly get bitten in the process, or B. Let the dog attack the child?? *eta, wrong wording here, I dont met let as such, more not being able to control the dog due to its size and/or aggression.

In emergency situations we need to make quick decisions. JMO

Edited September 20, 2010 by SecretKei

[aussielover]

It is important to note that well respected trainers, with PROVEN experience in dealing with aggressive dogs (successfully) have said even they would not give the sort of advice Malsrock (Fiona) has given over the internet.

Furthermore, they have even gone so far as to say those methods, while suitable in a small percentage of dogs, would not be the first choice for every aggressive dog.

I don't think there is any flaming going on, just pointing out that what Malsrock has said is potentially very dangerous and not suitbale advice to dispense on an online forum.

[poodlefan]

You can also have the dog attack you. At least two of us have seen it first hand and Aidan posted a rather splendid example.

Yep, you can. But in the example I posted you'd be weighing up being bitten against being dragged across a busy road and/or you dog mauling another. I know which option I'd pick in that scenario.

Or lets change the situation and suggest that your large dog lunges (unexpectantly and aggressively) at a child. Do you choose to A. get a handle on that dog and quickly, possibly get bitten in the process, or B. Let the dog attack the child??

In emergency situations we need to make quick decisions. JMO

However this advice wasn't given with the caution that the dog can redirect. On the contrary it was specifically stated that the dog couldn't do so. Hardly balanced advice and not prefaced with any "in case of emergency break glass and use" limitations.

Yes, in emergencies we do need make quick decisions. That's how I found myself with someone else's GSD on its hind legs hanging from its collar. I figured that was preferable to having it hanging off one of my dogs. And the moment the owner snatched the dog from me and loosened that lead, he wore his dog. :D Can't say I really had much sympathy for him.

My first post in this thread to Fiona politely asked her not to post this kind of advice and explained why. She immediately questioned my experience with aggressive dogs (implying her was superior and it probably is) and away we went. She started the pissing contest and it rapidly became apparent she was facing into the wind. :D

Edited September 20, 2010 by poodlefan

[aussielover]

You can also have the dog attack you. At least two of us have seen it first hand and Aidan posted a rather splendid example.

Yep, you can. But in the example I posted you'd be weighing up being bitten against being dragged across a busy road and/or you dog mauling another. I know which option I'd pick in that scenario.

Or lets change the situation and suggest that your large dog lunges (unexpectantly and aggressively) at a child. Do you choose to A. get a handle on that dog and quickly, possibly get bitten in the process, or B. Let the dog attack the child?? *eta, wrong wording here, I dont met let as such, more not being able to control the dog due to its size and/or aggression.

In emergency situations we need to make quick decisions. JMO

I'm pretty sure most people suggested to muzzle the dog and restrict its access to other dogs until it can be assessed by a professional?

As far as i can tell from the previous posts, the dog is not totally out of control dragging the owner across streets or anything. Obviously if it was, don't take the dog out until you can have it assessed.

[Animal House]

Sorry for going slightly off topic Aidan but was the dog lying down on the ground because he'd been choked, and was recovering? CM made out it was because he had accepted his dominance. I saw that episode ages ago and thought I'd have put the dog to sleep if he was like that.

The dog didn't look too bad to me, he responded very appropriately to what I'm sure he considered to be a threat to his life and his only real problem appeared to be on-leash aggression? I don't recall the whole episode though. Look at Cesar's right foot at 2:08, he was looking for confrontation.

This is my take on it, and I don't have any experience with this method so take it for what it is worth. In a way, Cesar is right - the dog did accept his "dominance". He went without air for quite a while but I'm not convinced that he was semi-conscious. Behaviourally, nothing else had worked for him. Growling didn't help, biting didn't help, so he just gave up which is when he got his air back. You can imagine the outcome if the trainer hadn't been prepared to take the bite, biting would have worked.

Is he any safer? I don't know how anyone could draw that conclusion without some weird, convoluted linguistics like "he wasn't aggressive, he was just dominant". He was aggressive, and now we don't know what he is or what warning he will use, or who he will be suppressed around or for how long. And certainly his trust in the world and ability to feel safe and in control of his environment hasn't improved at all. Ticking time-bomb...

Thank you for taking the time to put your take on it Aiden, it's very much appreciated.

I would never attempt anything like that, and hopefully I would never need to with my dogs.

I really do commend the professional behaviourists, a good one is worth their weight in gold. That was my first port of call when I had a problem with one of mine, and she certainly didn't diagnose over the internet either.

To the original poster (sorry, I forgot your name) did you end up putting a muzzle on your dog when out walking?

[poodlefan]

[

I'm pretty sure most people suggested to muzzle the dog and restrict its access to other dogs until it can be assessed by a professional?

No other poster actively disparaged trainers recommended either.

[RockDog]

Dont think any book will be able to solve your problem. You need to see a professional trainer.

I don't. And I'd be mad to!

I've been looking for a professional behaviourist all along, way before I posted this thread.

I asked in all sorts of places, looked in the phone book, asked on different lists, asked other dog owners I know, and spent hours phoning trainers from Yellow Pages, leaving messages etc. Trying to find a behaviourist has literally consumed the last 5 days of my life, since the attack on Taffy.

The day I started this thread (or the day before), someone from FunctionalRewards emailed me with a few names she'd heard of. I spent ages looking for info on those who had websites, and left messages with 5 of them. One has got back to me so far through email, and one has left a message on my phone this morning.

Yesterday, a friend gave me the number of a Veterinary behaviourist who I spoke to on the phone and is sending me a questionnaire.

Also, a behaviourist in Perth saw my plea on FunctionalRewards and contacted me, offering her services. I finally got to speak to her about an hour ago, and am probably going to use her.

I think I've said before (not sure) that the MAIN reason for posting this thread was to see if anyone had any

1) Names of behaviourists they could recommend.

2) Advice on what I could be doing in the meantime, while I'm waiting to get to Perth.

I have received both, including being told that I should string Rocky up, choke him, and it would WORK.

There is no way I would think that any book would solve my problems with Rocky.

However, there are some excellent books out there which come very higly recommended by well-respected proffessionals, which can help most pet dog owners immensely.

The other day I went slightly mad and ordered about three thousand of them. OK, slight exaggeration, but my bank manager's gonna hate me!

Edited September 20, 2010 by RockDog

[corvus]

Dont think any book will be able to solve your problem. You need to see a professional trainer.

I don't. And I'd be mad to!

Yep, and I certainly wasn't suggesting books would, either. It's just stuff that may or may not be useful in general/in the meantime. I figured that's the way RockDog would have taken it.

[Red Fox]

I'm pretty sure most people suggested to muzzle the dog and restrict its access to other dogs until it can be assessed by a professional?

As far as i can tell from the previous posts, the dog is not totally out of control dragging the owner across streets or anything. Obviously if it was, don't take the dog out until you can have it assessed.

Suggestions aside, nothing is foolproof and there is a first time for everything.

example: The OP takes the advice given here, orders a muzzle this afternoon (expected to arrive by the end of the week) and keeps her dogs separated. She has organised to go to her parents house for tea tomorrow night and as parents have no dogs and their yard is secure she decides that the best thing to do is to take her GSD with her ans leave her other dog at home. All goes well, then on leaving her parents house she leashes her dog and prepares to walk him out to the car. As she comes down the driveway a small dog runs out of a nearby house and charges aggressively towards the GSD, GSD goes over threshold and drags his owner onto the road in an attempt to attack the small barking dog.

So the dog wasn't out of control or dragging the owner across streets yesterday....