Please Help With Gsd Aggression.

[persephone]

I just want to the OP for being level-headed and able to peruse the varied advice offered, then make up her mind to get personal professional help

[aussielover]

After 20 years experience owning, training and handling dogs of genetic aggression and successfully rehabilitating dogs of this nature into worthy pets, you do tend to learn something about the behaviour and how to manage it through practical experience which is one of my specialty interests. My backyard has a working line GSD and Belgian Malinois as part of the scenery when speaking of experience does yours???.

Fiona

Honestly Fiona,

I am surprised that someone with your supposed experience is happy to give such detailed advice over the internet without having laid eyes on dog or owner.

You have not been able to observe the dog in person, nor have you been able to observe the interactions between dog and owner.

I would have thought any expereinced person would at least want to observe the problem in real life and then give recommendations. No offence to Rockydog, but we can't really know for sure what is going on until we see the dog in person.

I don't have a problem with using punishment where appropriate. Leash corrections as you have described *might* be appropriate for Rocky but can you really say without seeing the dog???

You can't tell if Rocky has ANY respect for the owner at all, we can only go by what the OP has said (again no offence intended), for all we know they could be not seeing some important factors.

Your advice, carried out by an inexperienced person to a dog that potentially has no respect for the owner, has the potential to go seriously wrong, as others have pointed out.

Recommendations to muzzle the dog in public and separate the dogs at home and seek assessment ASAP carry nowhere near as much risk and imo are the only safe advice we can give over the net.

[lovemesideways]

I wouldn't expect you to understand where I am coming from which only experience provides that wisdom. You can and I do dish out advice with breed specific behaviour that I am extremely familiar with and the OP's situation is one of those. Timing of the correction was detailed more than once of you read my posts properly. If you believe that a 12 month old intact male GSD may have a medical condition causing this behaviour is a testament of someone lacking breed knowledge and experience to suggest something so left of centre ,It's virtually still a puppy learning how to be tough, not a hardened aggressor that everyone wants to quiver in their boots over I don't need to see the dog, it's common adolecent GSD behaviour, albiet can escalate to serious aggression over the next 6 months or so if allowed to continue.

Fiona

Last time I checked, a puppy "learning to be tough" and a "hardened aggressor" bite remarkably similarly. In recent weeks there have been one of two people dispensing "correct 'em hard' advice about dealing with aggresson on this forum with apparent disregard to the potential danger that may place a handler in.

Please stop it. No professional worth their salt would do it. A dog's behavior cannot be explained by breed alone and in my opinion what you are doing is downright dangerous. Aggression is NOT breed specific behaviour. If it was, then breed specific legislation might actually be worthwhile.

As I posted, I have seen a GSD turn on its handler when checked off a dog. Not every dog will tolerate being jerked around and your advice could get someone seriously hurt. :D

I didn't recommend a "check" Poodlefan, that's why they redirect because the corrrection is half hearted, more an agitation. Dog's can't redirect during an air block and is the exact correction or saftey measure if you like for a handler aggressive dog that comes back up the leash. I am intersted to know if you have ever trained and handled an aggressive dog

Fiona

The guy I met, whos dog bit a chunk out of his arm. Tried to "air block" the dog (A full grown male GSD). Lifted him up, 2 front paws of the ground, dog panicked, flipped himself around and latched onto his owners arm.

Bullshit a dog can't redirect when you choke them.

[Animal House]

Dog's can't redirect during an air block and is the exact correction or saftey measure if you like for a handler aggressive dog that comes back up the leash

This guy uses them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh9YOyM2TAk

Probably a bad example because he gets bitten quite a lot, probably doesn't have much experience though.

Oh well, at least that dog is now safe. I can't imagine that dog would ever bite anyone else after that experience, no sir. Actually, it wasn't clear if he had ever bitten anyone before either. But what reason would he have to bite someone now? People are definitely "alpha" over him and he knows it!

Sorry for going slightly off topic Aidan but was the dog lying down on the ground because he'd been choked, and was recovering? CM made out it was because he had accepted his dominance. I saw that episode ages ago and thought I'd have put the dog to sleep if he was like that.

[aussielover]

Dog's can't redirect during an air block and is the exact correction or saftey measure if you like for a handler aggressive dog that comes back up the leash

This guy uses them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh9YOyM2TAk

Probably a bad example because he gets bitten quite a lot, probably doesn't have much experience though.

Oh well, at least that dog is now safe. I can't imagine that dog would ever bite anyone else after that experience, no sir. Actually, it wasn't clear if he had ever bitten anyone before either. But what reason would he have to bite someone now? People are definitely "alpha" over him and he knows it!

Sorry for going slightly off topic Aidan but was the dog lying down on the ground because he'd been choked, and was recovering? CM made out it was because he had accepted his dominance. I saw that episode ages ago and thought I'd have put the dog to sleep if he was like that.

That sort of "training" is best left to professionals. You can see the dog tried to attack the handler. I can't believe some people recommeded that the OP try this.

I think the dog in that video had sort of "given up" perhaps gone into a state of helplessness.

[poodlefan]

That sort of "training" is best left to professionals. You can see the dog tried to attack the handler. I can't believe some people recommeded that the OP try this.

I think the dog in that video had sort of "given up" perhaps gone into a state of helplessness.

Or semi-consciousness. Dogs learn so well in that state. Look at the body language of the owners watching behind.. .don't they look comfortable with what's happening NOT.

That behaviour become unrelated to the presence of the other dog and completely about the handler giving leash corrections within seconds.

I'd lay odds Shadow is a wolf hybrid. Completely unpredictable in terms of responses to correction. At one stage that dog's muzzle was on Mr Millan's stomach. He's lucky it didn't' gut him.

Edited September 20, 2010 by poodlefan

[Kavik]

Dog's can't redirect during an air block and is the exact correction or saftey measure if you like for a handler aggressive dog that comes back up the leash

This guy uses them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh9YOyM2TAk

Probably a bad example because he gets bitten quite a lot, probably doesn't have much experience though.

Oh well, at least that dog is now safe. I can't imagine that dog would ever bite anyone else after that experience, no sir. Actually, it wasn't clear if he had ever bitten anyone before either. But what reason would he have to bite someone now? People are definitely "alpha" over him and he knows it!

to the video! No way would I ever want to do anything that caused my dog to come up leash like that! CM copped a few I'm sure in that video!

I am slightly smaller than the OP :D

To the OP If I were you I would:

1) Seek professional help (which you are )

2) Avoid meeting other dogs on walks until you get help with the dog's behaviour (this may include finding a different route with less dogs, crossing the road if another dog comes, changing direction, pulling into a driveway or front yard to get space, walking at a different time of day)

3) Walk the dog on strong, safe equipment that will not break for safety and so you have control (I would use a prong collar and leather or fiber tech lead, certainly given your size and strength issues, but you want to get help on how to use the collar correctly)

4) do focus exercises, first at home in a quiet environment. Getting the dog's focus on you could help you in a lot of circumstances.

[Aidan]

Sorry for going slightly off topic Aidan but was the dog lying down on the ground because he'd been choked, and was recovering? CM made out it was because he had accepted his dominance. I saw that episode ages ago and thought I'd have put the dog to sleep if he was like that.

The dog didn't look too bad to me, he responded very appropriately to what I'm sure he considered to be a threat to his life and his only real problem appeared to be on-leash aggression? I don't recall the whole episode though. Look at Cesar's right foot at 2:08, he was looking for confrontation.

This is my take on it, and I don't have any experience with this method so take it for what it is worth. In a way, Cesar is right - the dog did accept his "dominance". He went without air for quite a while but I'm not convinced that he was semi-conscious. Behaviourally, nothing else had worked for him. Growling didn't help, biting didn't help, so he just gave up which is when he got his air back. You can imagine the outcome if the trainer hadn't been prepared to take the bite, biting would have worked.

Is he any safer? I don't know how anyone could draw that conclusion without some weird, convoluted linguistics like "he wasn't aggressive, he was just dominant". He was aggressive, and now we don't know what he is or what warning he will use, or who he will be suppressed around or for how long. And certainly his trust in the world and ability to feel safe and in control of his environment hasn't improved at all. Ticking time-bomb...

[SpecTraining]

Hey Malsrock (Fiona),

There is no doubt whatsoever reading your posts that you are an experienced working dog handler and I would imagine a good one too. I agree with air blocking in these situations IMHO would more than likely be the fastest approach to correct the dogs behaviour where other methods in comparison would present a longer road ahead which I indeed think is true.

What you haven't taken into account with your advice Fiona which others have raised, is that your "basic" experience is so far above that of the average pet owner especially an inexperienced one, that a specialised air blocking technique is not something that just any pet owner will master easily and would need you to personally instruct them step by step standing by their side to create their confidence to master the technique correctly which CANNOT be done effectively over an internet forum in this instance.

I agree on a working dog forum discussing issues and sharing training advice is done regularly and successfully over the internet because the people on those forums with working dogs have attained a high level of basic handler experience to communicate on a more level field of understanding, but the pet owner as in this case is struggling with a GSD on a halti which presents a massive difference in experience levels between your capabilities and theirs.

With regard to the dog redirecting aggression towards the owner from an air blocking technique given it's age and what the OP has described in behaviour I would say not, but it's possible, and counteracting a redirection if it did would be way beyond an inexperienced owners capabilities IMHO to contend with. In the owners shoes, to have someone with Fiona's experience walking up the driveway to help train your dog and teach you how to handle it properly would be godsend relief, she's definitely a good candidate to achieve a great result, but again I say, not over the internet, and in person only.

Not having a go Fiona, just two cents worth of constuctive discussion

Garry

[poodlefan]

SpecTraining:

In the owners shoes, to have someone with Fiona's experience walking up the driveway to help train your dog and teach you how to handle it properly would be godsend relief, she's definitely a good candidate to achieve a great result, but again I say, not over the internet, and in person only.

Very diplomatic of you Garry. Given that Fiona assured us she had this situation sorted based only on the dog's breed and a few paragraphs from the owner, I'd not let her darken my driveway anytime soon.

I took my dog to see someone who spent quite a bit of tiime observing him and talking to me about him before even venturing out to the training field. Anyone who'd give advice without taking a full history is someone I'd not recommend to anyone, REGARDLESS of the training method they use

I don't care how much experience a trainer has if they're prepared to start "correcting" my dog when they don't know a damn thing about it. For example, I'd say its relevant if the dog has a congenital malformation in the vertebrae of the neck. Wouldn't you?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions and my guess is that trainers who don't know what they don't know have laid a fair few of those pavers. :D

Edited September 20, 2010 by poodlefan

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: I agree, it is a crappy video and CM does get bit, a lot. And he also uses this method, a lot.

There are some dogs that need to learn certain things and sometimes, very aggressive or out of control dogs need something to stop the practice of life threatening behaviours, so I am not going to bash him for what he has done.

I was not there and can’t say what the dog was like off camera, and off camera is where any or all behaviour modification would really occur on that show.

Having all that said, I really think giving any advice on how to deal with an aggressive dog over the internet is very unstable ground.

I for one think that seeing the dog and completing an evaluation is a necessity in dealing with any aggressive dog. I for one would never internet advise someone to challenge their dog, and air blocking can very easily be seen as a challenge as can Alpha Rolling and poking and shhhht ing.

I think people need to come to terms and understand that dog aggression is a Psychological condition; it is rarely a training problem. If someone had a child and their child had a Psychological aggression problem, ideally they should be looking for a referral to a person that can offer Psychological help.

I have worked with thousands of aggressive dogs, it would be simple if one technique would solve them all, but what will work with one may get you mauled by another. I guess the concern with CM technique is that it seems to appear on most every episode I have seen.

It may be a technique that can produce results with a small % of dogs, it isnt a first choice on any dog, ever.

The OP has been given some people to contact, please do that and “Don’t attempt these techniques at home”, lol...

[SpecTraining]

SpecTraining:

In the owners shoes, to have someone with Fiona's experience walking up the driveway to help train your dog and teach you how to handle it properly would be godsend relief, she's definitely a good candidate to achieve a great result, but again I say, not over the internet, and in person only.

Very diplomatic of you Garry. Given that Fiona assured us she had this situation sorted based only on the dog's breed and a few paragraphs from the owner, I'd not let her darken my driveway anytime soon.

I took my dog to see someone who spent quite a bit of tiime observing it and talking to me about him before even venturing out to the training field. Anyone who'd give advice without taking a full history is someone I'd not recommend to anyone, REGARDLESS of the training method they use

I don't care how much experience a trainer has if they're prepared to start "correcting" my dog when they don't know a damn thing about it. For example, I'd say its relevant if the dog has a congenital malformation in the vertebrae of the neck. Wouldn't you?

Yes and no, Poodlefan. People that only train and handle working dogs as Fiona mentioned 20 years, she would have some "feel" for the situation I am sure, but I doubt any trainer would pick up on vertebrae malformation without a vet clearance unless it was blatently obvious in the dog's movements or the owner knew of the condition to pass onto the trainer for consideration what training tools may be used.

Essentially, it's best for a trainer to check the dog over before commencing for sure, I agree.

I think some trainers are better with certain dogs or breeds and behaviours where I have seen working dog trainers shut down and ruin docile submissive dogs, and on the other hand have seen trainers who are excellent with the more docile dogs get bitten by a redirection from a working dog or really struggle with them. There are so many different types of dogs and behaviours out there, all though they have 4 legs and most have a tail, there is always a challenge somewhere awaiting and a new experience to be had.

[Brennan's Mum]

I (virtually) know the OP from Facebook..and I know the people she has sought advice from via Facebook. Yet I do not know her irl.

I think that like what many sensible people have said about seeking professional help is the best course of action. Having some one who is skilled enough come and see the OP and her dog in person rather then suggesting techniques which could be dangerous over the internet.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Brennan's Mum

[poodlefan]

Yes and no, Poodlefan. People that only train and handle working dogs as Fiona mentioned 20 years, she would have some "feel" for the situation I am sure, but I doubt any trainer would pick up on vertebrae malformation without a vet clearance unless it was blatently obvious in the dog's movements or the owner knew of the condition to pass onto the trainer for consideration what training tools may be used.

Of course all the trainer would have to do is ask the owner rather than charging in blindly. "Any medical issues" is a pretty standard question on a dog trainer's list.

Essentially, it's best for a trainer to check the dog over before commencing for sure, I agree.

I think its nothing short of common sense to see the dog, talk to the owner and doing some evaluating before slapping on a check chain and triggering the dog to aggress. No decent dog trainer of of any quality likes working blind. Its not good for the insurance premiums or the medical bills.

I think some trainers are better with certain dogs or breeds and behaviours where I have seen working dog trainers shut down and ruin docile submissive dogs, and on the other hand have seen trainers who are excellent with the more docile dogs get bitten by a redirection from a working dog or really struggle with them. There are so many different types of dogs and behaviours out there, all though they have 4 legs and most have a tail, there is always a challenge somewhere awaiting and a new experience to be had .

And of course the trick as a professional is not to f*ck someone's much loved pet for life by basing your advice based on dogs other than the one in front of you. Not all dogs of all breeds have the same temperament, triggers or reactions.

And any trainer worth a damn knows it and acts accordingly.

Edited September 20, 2010 by poodlefan

[Red Fox]

Not sure why everyone has their knickers in a knot over Fiona's post.

The OP asked for advice on a public forum and they got it.

It is up to them to decide whether to blindly follow advice given over the internet (or read in a book, or given to them by some random person they met in the dog park) or to use their brain and see a professional instead.

[poodlefan]

Not sure why everyone has their knickers in a knot over Fiona's post.

The OP asked for advice on a public forum and they got it.

It is up to them to decide whether to blindly follow advice given over the internet (or read in a book, or given to them by some random person they met in the dog park) or to use their brain and see a professional instead.

Because Fiona implied that she knew best and that her method was a surefire guarantee to work. And it was potentially very dangerous. Here's what she said:

I have layed it on the line with a process that will stop the dog's aggression instantly and allow her to control the situation until she has the opportunity to seek professional help and I make no apologies for that

When folk start sprouting that kind of rubbish its time to step in and provide some cautionary advice.

Edited September 20, 2010 by poodlefan

[Red Fox]

Not sure why everyone has their knickers in a knot over Fiona's post.

The OP asked for advice on a public forum and they got it.

It is up to them to decide whether to blindly follow advice given over the internet (or read in a book, or given to them by some random person they met in the dog park) or to use their brain and see a professional instead.

Because Fiona implied that she knew best and that her method was a surefire guarantee to work. And it was potentially very dangerous.

When folk start sprouting their credentials, its time to step in and provide some cautionary advice.

By all means provide some cautionary advice, I don't disagree with that at all. But there has been a lot more than that going on in this thread ... more like flaming IMO

PF, just saw your edit. In Fionas defence she did state in the same quote;

"I have layed it on the line with a process that will stop the dog's aggression instantly and allow her to control the situation until she has the opportunity to seek professional help and I make no apologies for that"

To me it seems that she has suggested it more as a way to get a handle on the dog in an emergency situation, not as a cure all.

Edited September 20, 2010 by SecretKei

[RockDog]

Do you have any calming exercises you do with him? My little firecracker goes up in arousal and can be hard to bring down again. He's still a bit socially (and emotionally?) immature and seems to benefit greatly from a bit of help every now and then to calm down again. I do a lot of TTouch and massage with him and pair it with a verbal cue "shh". It's interesting to see that sometimes a bit of that goes a looooong way. It's still a work in progress for us, and he doesn't always come down as fast or as far as would be ideal, but I'm impressed with how useful it's been all the same. It took a little while when he was quite young to get him appreciating it enough to sit still for it in the first place, and we did some practice revving him up a little and bringing him down again and clicking for tail down and sleepy eyes and that sort of thing as described in Control Unleashed. I think that helped as well, but not sure to what extent. I'm not sure why, but for my little guy, working on his hindquarters seems to be just the thing for calming him, followed by some long strokes down his back to calm him some more. He often comes back for more of that. My other dog turns to putty in your hands if you massage his chest.

There's also Karen Overall's Protocol for Relaxation, which is a good (though somewhat tedious) exercise for teaching a dog to be calm. It can take a bit of work to condition an excitable dog to calm down on cue, but I think it's something quite useful to spend time on. Maybe that's just me, though. I think that it helps avert the practicing of behaviour seen when a dog is aroused when you don't want that aroused behaviour.

Pretty glad you seem to have your head screwed on! Everyone on the internet is an expert, you know. :D

Thanks corvus.

I've actually ordered the TTouch book by Linda Tellington-Jones, should be here in a week or two.

I don't know much about it at all, but that's good to hear that I may be able to use it in Rocky's aroused states.

Thanks for the idea.

I haven't got Control Unleashed yet either, but plan to when I can find a cheap copy. :-)

Cheers for the vote of confidence. Bit hard when you're new to this and don't know what to believe.

[Red Fox]

Thanks corvus.

I've actually ordered the TTouch book by Linda Tellington-Jones, should be here in a week or two.

I don't know much about it at all, but that's good to hear that I may be able to use it in Rocky's aroused states.

Thanks for the idea.

I haven't got Control Unleashed yet either, but plan to when I can find a cheap copy. :-)

Cheers for the vote of confidence. Bit hard when you're new to this and don't know what to believe.

Dont think any book will be able to solve your problem. You need to see a professional trainer.

[poodlefan]

PF, just saw your edit. In Fionas defence she did state in the same quote;

"I have layed it on the line with a process that will stop the dog's aggression instantly and allow her to control the situation until she has the opportunity to seek professional help and I make no apologies for that"

To me it seems that she has suggested it more as a way to get a handle on the dog in an emergency situation, not as a cure all.

It was suggested as a method of managing the behaviour until a professional was called in. It was a potentially disastrous suggestion and any trainer worth a damn would never have made it.

If I sound a little hot under the collar about it its because I get rather upset when I read advice that can see a dog put its handler in intensive care and leave other dog owners and their dogs at risk. Fiona gave two guarantees in her advice:

1. That it would work

2. That the dog could not redirect its aggression onto the handler.

Neither of those is a sure thing. You don't mess with people's safety on a pet dog forum. What people want to advise on a 'working dog' forum is no business of mine.

Edited September 20, 2010 by poodlefan