Please Help With Gsd Aggression.

[Loopy Lola]

I gather Rocky is not desexed? Which is great as he needs his hormones to complete his growth, however, I believe that he is now of an age where his hormones are starting to come into play and Rocky believes he needs to raise his position in the pack hirachy, (not on).

Being in WA if you can contact Honey Gross-Richardson who is involved and has had GSD's for 30+ years she is a very experienced person and could possibly put you in touch with or help you with sorting Rocky's issues out.

I have to agree with everyone who has suggested professional advice, as the scenario's need to be looked at by an oursider who can read the body languages or all parties involved both 2 and 4 legged.

All the best in sorting out Rocky's issues in the future.

Rockdog .......I would agree with the above and speak to Honey

[RockDog]

His behaviour has been building, he has technically always had a problem with little dogs but now he's a big strong man he's going to act like an adult and not a pup. THe doors open, his behaviour is self perpetuating. THe lack of intervention has not been from a few weeks but a long standing problem now presenting in an adult fashion.

My current suggestion is to keep the dogs separate, muzzle your GSD out in public for everyones safety and put him on equipment that you can control him on until you get professional help with someone who knows a lot about fixing aggression problems.

As for Malsrock's method, it still happens and it still works. Especially for those that cannot access an e-collar. I think if you have not used a correction collar on him up till now you need to invest in one and dont take any bad pack behaviour from him at all. Practice your walks, start in the front yard at least for now.

Thanks Nekhbet :-)

Funny how writing things down then reading them can put things in perspective.

From the part you quoted me on, I can see now that he's had a problem with small dogs since before Spongey came to stay with us! I had seen the problem as only starting when he had "enough" of Spongey and attacked him, then got worse with other dogs too.

But I don't agree with e-collars or leash hanging. I've read too many times that it can "shut down" a dog, and for how long? And it will destroy his trust in me, and make him hate the stimuli more. Little dog = pain and fear.

But your input was helpful, so cheers for that.

[RockDog]

I gather Rocky is not desexed? Which is great as he needs his hormones to complete his growth, however, I believe that he is now of an age where his hormones are starting to come into play and Rocky believes he needs to raise his position in the pack hirachy, (not on).

Being in WA if you can contact Honey Gross-Richardson who is involved and has had GSD's for 30+ years she is a very experienced person and could possibly put you in touch with or help you with sorting Rocky's issues out.

I have to agree with everyone who has suggested professional advice, as the scenario's need to be looked at by an oursider who can read the body languages or all parties involved both 2 and 4 legged.

All the best in sorting out Rocky's issues in the future.

Rockdog .......I would agree with the above and speak to Honey

Me too

I met Honey about 10 years ago and was looking for her phone number yesterday. Can't find it anywhere. If someone has her number can they please PM me?

Thanks.

And Christine, a big Oops! from me, .

Photos of my beauties coming up.....

[Roguedog]

if you dont give your dog a correction, how will he know you find his behaviour unacceptable? he is a GSD not a poodle (sorry! no offence to poodles!! ) and they can handle leash corrections... and yes pack structure is very important, I have 4 high energy medium sized dogs and if I didnt have my pack structure sorted id be in a world of trouble!!! remember you have a working breed and an entire male at that going through the "teenage, pushy" stage.... find a behavioural trainer experienced with GSDs to help you out.... good luck! hope you get your boy sorted!

Edited September 18, 2010 by rubeedoo

[Nekhbet]

But I don't agree with e-collars or leash hanging. I've read too many times that it can "shut down" a dog, and for how long? And it will destroy his trust in me, and make him hate the stimuli more. Little dog = pain and fear.

But your input was helpful, so cheers for that.

if done correctly it doesnt. You have to show, and I'm speaking for some situations, that their behaviour is totally unacceptable. THEN you redirect the dog to the right behaviour. What your stating is partly old wives tail and partly when people were just cruel to their dogs, we've come a long way since then. I can tell you the classes I train at, we welcome aggressive dogs and most will receive some form of correction to help curb their behaviour. 99% go on to enjoy off lead group play happily and in a controlled manner. Leave the decisions up to an experienced trainer and trust me, you will be happy with the results.

[RockDog]

Will have to dig out some photos of Taffy and Hunnie, but in th emeantime here's the Rock-Dog

Jentol Mirra's Chain Reaction 5/9/2009

Sire Mika vom Overledingerland.

Dam Jentol Raver's Reflection.

[RockDog]

nother

[RockDog]

nother

[malsrock]

Hi RockDog,

What you need to do is knock that behaviour on the head fast as it will esculate. The "best and fastest" way to stop the behaviour is using negative reinforcement to teach the dog that acting aggressively, he's going to cop something he will respect. You need him on a leash and watch for an aggressive reaction and the moment he goes to lunge, lift the leash straight up, front legs off the ground with harsh NO command and air block him, hold him up until he looks at you, then slowly release him to the ground. If he goes at it again, hoist him up again with another NO command and he will get the message that aggression will not be tolorated under any circumstances.

If you feel uneasy about the process, best hire a good trainer who is experienced in K9 type training of working dogs, but be careful hiring clicker and treat trainers for correction of that behaviour as they won't fix it. A good quality GSD can handle that type of correction and will respect you for taking a leading role in your relationship and will transform the aggressive reactions quickly.

Best of luck

Fiona

Hey Diablo/Rex/whatever - I thought it was you

No, that was Dianne Huski, I have trained with her she's very good but got tired of

[Roguedog]

what a good looking boy!!!! very handsome...

[RockDog]

if done correctly it doesnt. You have to show, and I'm speaking for some situations, that their behaviour is totally unacceptable. THEN you redirect the dog to the right behaviour. What your stating is partly old wives tail and partly when people were just cruel to their dogs, we've come a long way since then. I can tell you the classes I train at, we welcome aggressive dogs and most will receive some form of correction to help curb their behaviour. 99% go on to enjoy off lead group play happily and in a controlled manner. Leave the decisions up to an experienced trainer and trust me, you will be happy with the results.

Hmmm... got to admit your point does sound tempting.

I'm not confident it's the way to go though, and I'll definately try to see the best-recommended trainer/behaviourist while we're in Perth for that one week.

Really worried cos we're ONLY in Perth for that one week, and this is obviously going to take a long time to overcome.

[malsrock]

But I don't agree with e-collars or leash hanging. I've read too many times that it can "shut down" a dog, and for how long? And it will destroy his trust in me, and make him hate the stimuli more. Little dog = pain and fear.

But your input was helpful, so cheers for that.

if done correctly it doesnt. You have to show, and I'm speaking for some situations, that their behaviour is totally unacceptable. THEN you redirect the dog to the right behaviour. What your stating is partly old wives tail and partly when people were just cruel to their dogs, we've come a long way since then. I can tell you the classes I train at, we welcome aggressive dogs and most will receive some form of correction to help curb their behaviour. 99% go on to enjoy off lead group play happily and in a controlled manner. Leave the decisions up to an experienced trainer and trust me, you will be happy with the results.

Correct there is nothing you can do successfully to redirect calm in a lunging dog that wants to fight other than to snap them out of the reactivity with enough force to take their mind completely away from their aggressive intention. WHEN calm has been achieved, THEN you have a model to work with for behaviour rehabilitiation. If you pussy foot around once they reach the lunging and biting stage which many do is the difference between the ones who can successfully treat aggression and the one's who can't. There a more trainers who struggle with aggressive dogs than one's who can correct it I have found

Fiona

[RockDog]

Correct there is nothing you can do successfully to redirect calm in a lunging dog that wants to fight other than to snap them out of the reactivity with enough force to take their mind completely away from their aggressive intention. WHEN calm has been achieved, THEN you have a model to work with for behaviour rehabilitiation. If you pussy foot around once they reach the lunging and biting stage which many do is the difference between the ones who can successfully treat aggression and the one's who can't. There a more trainers who struggle with aggressive dogs than one's who can correct it I have found

Fiona

I'm taking this all on board, and appreciate your input

[Nekhbet]

Hmmm... got to admit your point does sound tempting.

I'm not confident it's the way to go though, and I'll definately try to see the best-recommended trainer/behaviourist while we're in Perth for that one week.

Really worried cos we're ONLY in Perth for that one week, and this is obviously going to take a long time to overcome.

all aggressive and heightened responses need to be handled by a professional. Once you have the knowledge then you practice it and cement good behaviours. Corrections are not for every dog though, and not for every situation. But they are nothing to be shied away from as they are a valuable tool in the learning process IF THE DOG REQUIRES IT. You will ALWAYS require positive reinforcement in training, you have to be able to give the dog some way of cementing the new, good behaviours and make them want to aim for what you want. But sometimes to get there you need to apply some corrections in order to show the dog, if you want to take that route it's not very pleasant ... listen and focus on me and it's super awesome! It adds to your value and enhances the dogs ability to make a decision in what it will exhibit as a behaviour. You dont shout or growl at the dog, you say nothing, correct, then pleasantly command and praise when it does what you show it to do.

I wish I had taken a video of a dog I dealt with today, 9 months old BIG dog ripping its owners arm out and no control. By the end of the lesson we had learned to heel on loose leash, focus, sit stay, drop stay. And the dog was SO happy even though the first few corrections may have confused her a little as she had never received them before. We worked through and the owner was so pleased, I even told them that dog is a natural at obedience work. She just learned that running off like a loony and hitting the end of the leash is unpleasant, but heeling and paying attention gets you treats, pats and cuddles. What dog could resist but to behave

[malsrock]

Hi RockDog,

What you need to do is knock that behaviour on the head fast as it will esculate. The "best and fastest" way to stop the behaviour is using negative reinforcement to teach the dog that acting aggressively, he's going to cop something he will respect. You need him on a leash and watch for an aggressive reaction and the moment he goes to lunge, lift the leash straight up, front legs off the ground with harsh NO command and air block him, hold him up until he looks at you, then slowly release him to the ground. If he goes at it again, hoist him up again with another NO command and he will get the message that aggression will not be tolorated under any circumstances.

If you feel uneasy about the process, best hire a good trainer who is experienced in K9 type training of working dogs, but be careful hiring clicker and treat trainers for correction of that behaviour as they won't fix it. A good quality GSD can handle that type of correction and will respect you for taking a leading role in your relationship and will transform the aggressive reactions quickly.

Best of luck

Fiona

Are you for real?

I would be seriously careful about ever recommending negative reinforcement in a situation like this where all you have is what the owner has said. You don't know why the dog is doing it and what reaction that dog will have to a correction of such force. Recommending anyone to hang a dog in the air by their lead is seriously not on!

Hi Lovemesideways,

This situation the OP has asked for help with is a serious one. When you reach the stage of aggression when you are pulling dogs apart to stop a fight especially a large dog with traits to have a real go against a small dog that can be easily killed with one decent chomp, the situation needs to be dealt with fast, and what I have recommended will fix it. In fact, a couple of air blocks is usually enough to stop an aggressive lunger altogether and provide a calmer and safer environment to work with other methods of redirection and conditioning.

I respect the opinions of people who have no experience dealing with the effects of aggression simply because they wouldn't know what to do or how to apply an emergency proceedure other than rushing a dog to the vets with pieces missing off it which is often then too late, or taking the aggressive dog to the vets for a one way trip because they can't handle it, or they employ the assistance of trainers who can't handle it either. It's not until you are faced with aggression, living with it and absorbing the anxiety that comes with it, can anyone really understand what it feels like and until you have experienced this for yourself and rehabilitated this behaviour successfully as I have many times over, your opinion of the situation from my perspective has no relevence whatsoever.

We can all respond with geez RockDog, that's really nasty and we feel for you and get a behaviourist in which is no help to her as we speak, I have layed it on the line with a process that will stop the dog's aggression instantly and allow her to control the situation until she has the opportunity to seek professional help and I make no apologies for that

Fiona

Edited September 18, 2010 by malsrock

[Rusky]

I gather Rocky is not desexed? Which is great as he needs his hormones to complete his growth, however, I believe that he is now of an age where his hormones are starting to come into play and Rocky believes he needs to raise his position in the pack hirachy, (not on).

Being in WA if you can contact Honey Gross-Richardson who is involved and has had GSD's for 30+ years she is a very experienced person and could possibly put you in touch with or help you with sorting Rocky's issues out.

I have to agree with everyone who has suggested professional advice, as the scenario's need to be looked at by an oursider who can read the body languages or all parties involved both 2 and 4 legged.

All the best in sorting out Rocky's issues in the future.

you can contact Honey on this email

[email protected]

[malsrock]

'RockDog' date='18th Sep 2010 - 05:38 PM' post='4821106']

First of all, there is NO WAY I would do what was suggested by malsrock! And I think it was VERY irresponsible of you to suggest it, Fiona. No offence, and I really do apreciate you taking the time to answer anyway .

Just as Rocky was turning aggressive towards Spongey, there was an incident at the school, about 5 weeks ago. We were standing at the chainlink fence, no-one around, Rocky relaxed, when a lady walked up behind us with her JRT on leash. Rocky saw them first and lunged towards the dog, taking me with him. They greeted, the JRT walked towards me, Rocky was being annoying and nudging him, the JRT growled, and then it was 'on'. No damage, and I managed to pull Rocky off after only 2 or 3 seconds, but that (at the time) had me confused as to what on earth had made Rocky do that. At the time, I put it down to Rocky resource guarding me.

I like the sound of Rocky, a bit of dominance aggression and some sharpness, sounds like the makings of great GSD..........but you MUST learn to train and control him properly. What you should have done and don't try and analyse why he does it, he's a lunger with aggressive intent that you need to accept and sort it out. ANY dog he has the potential for him to lunge at with a need to watch his body language and be ready for a reaction in those situations. He will get stronger at lunging and can easily pull you off your feet if you are not ready for a reaction and often then, he has got hold of the dog before you realise what's happened.

At the chain link fence when the dog approached, the moment Rocky made a lunging movement, you command NO without emotion and lift the leash straight up and air block him until he settles and gently let him down when he relaxes then praise him for calm, then move away from the other dog to create some distance and don't allow him to greet the dog. You want him to ignor other dogs essentially, be aware of them, but not worry about them or need to interact with them at this stage until a rehabilitation process is in place by a professional trainer.

There is nothing wrong with Rocky, he's not a fruit loop or anything, just a cocky adoloecent male with some spirit, many GSD's are like that but can become out of control if not trained and handled properly.

Fiona

Edited September 18, 2010 by malsrock

[malsrock]

Hmmm... got to admit your point does sound tempting.

I'm not confident it's the way to go though, and I'll definately try to see the best-recommended trainer/behaviourist while we're in Perth for that one week.

Really worried cos we're ONLY in Perth for that one week, and this is obviously going to take a long time to overcome.

all aggressive and heightened responses need to be handled by a professional. Once you have the knowledge then you practice it and cement good behaviours. Corrections are not for every dog though, and not for every situation. But they are nothing to be shied away from as they are a valuable tool in the learning process IF THE DOG REQUIRES IT. You will ALWAYS require positive reinforcement in training, you have to be able to give the dog some way of cementing the new, good behaviours and make them want to aim for what you want. But sometimes to get there you need to apply some corrections in order to show the dog, if you want to take that route it's not very pleasant ... listen and focus on me and it's super awesome! It adds to your value and enhances the dogs ability to make a decision in what it will exhibit as a behaviour. You dont shout or growl at the dog, you say nothing, correct, then pleasantly command and praise when it does what you show it to do.

I wish I had taken a video of a dog I dealt with today, 9 months old BIG dog ripping its owners arm out and no control. By the end of the lesson we had learned to heel on loose leash, focus, sit stay, drop stay. And the dog was SO happy even though the first few corrections may have confused her a little as she had never received them before. We worked through and the owner was so pleased, I even told them that dog is a natural at obedience work. She just learned that running off like a loony and hitting the end of the leash is unpleasant, but heeling and paying attention gets you treats, pats and cuddles. What dog could resist but to behave

Excellent post Nekhbet, very well explained

Fiona

[Nekhbet]

I dont bother getting owners to correct without professional help, we dont know if Rocky will redirect and THAT is where the problems usually lie and owner confidence then hits rock bottom. Through simple loading and a mistaken action the dog can then be seen to be 'human aggressive' when in reality they are not and simply released their anxiety in a violent way. I also dont bother shouting NO, it can be the straw that breaks the camels back in some dogs. I'd rather teach a dog to calm down and learn 'LEAVE'.

You also have to watch with air blocking that 1) the collar doesnt slip off or isnt in the right position and 2) you dont accidentally crush the dogs stylohyoid bones in the throat. Easier to do then you think if you dont know what you're doing. Dogs have also popped vessels in their eyes due to the collar pressure of hanging. You dont have to hang them, if you use a DD collar you can simply apply gentle pressure and the dog will settle without risking injury (ala Cesar Milan style)

There is nothing wrong with Rocky, he's not a fruit loop or anything, just a cocky adoloecent male with some spirit, many GSD's are like that but can become out of control if not trained and handled properly

that I definately agree with

[malsrock]

I dont bother getting owners to correct without professional help, we dont know if Rocky will redirect and THAT is where the problems usually lie and owner confidence then hits rock bottom. Through simple loading and a mistaken action the dog can then be seen to be 'human aggressive' when in reality they are not and simply released their anxiety in a violent way. I also dont bother shouting NO, it can be the straw that breaks the camels back in some dogs. I'd rather teach a dog to calm down and learn 'LEAVE'.

You also have to watch with air blocking that 1) the collar doesnt slip off or isnt in the right position and 2) you dont accidentally crush the dogs stylohyoid bones in the throat. Easier to do then you think if you dont know what you're doing. Dogs have also popped vessels in their eyes due to the collar pressure of hanging. You dont have to hang them, if you use a DD collar you can simply apply gentle pressure and the dog will settle without risking injury (ala Cesar Milan style)

There is nothing wrong with Rocky, he's not a fruit loop or anything, just a cocky adoloecent male with some spirit, many GSD's are like that but can become out of control if not trained and handled properly

that I definately agree with

Yeah, if you want to cover "all" possible outcomes I agree Nekhbet, but air blocking isn't a new technique and is generally a bit over dramatised in the "what if's"???. The only dog I have ever had re-direct was a conditioned handler aggressive who I air blocked for trying to chew my arm off. He came back at me and the learning curve if you bite me you die routine, he settled nicely, even got a sloppy kiss in the end :D A dog may re-direct at a trainer being a person they don't know well, but do I think Rocky would re-direct at his owner?????.........No, that's why I prefer the owner to do it, not me as the inclination to become aggressive lessens with familiarity as we know. They will pop eye vessells at near death, but hey, we are just getting them to think about breathing to get their mind off the aggression target, not a full Koehler style hang up on a rope and pulley, same goes for crushing the throat. The DD collar is good once you stop the lunging, but in the lunging process, they spring up on their back legs anyway and the choking effect of a DD is worse I think considering they are bouncing around and out of control at that point. I usually use a flat collar at that stage, then use a DD or prong even a check chain once the actual lunging is controlled.

I prefer a command in conjunction, not a banshee scream in hysterics, but just a firm NO, because as you wean them off correction and they focus with the "hairy eyeball" as you progress through training out the beahviour, I will leash pop and command NO when they look to have some intent. I have found then it can be weaned down to just a NO or verbal command to re-gain their attention when they focus upon another dog or whatever???. I have done it both with a command and silent, but with aggression I prefer a command and the dog to learn that I control aggressive responses and to learn that taking it upon yourself to react aggressively you are going to cop one and a better one than you can give.

Aggression has such a high potential to land you in the poop, loose your dog over it and the dog hurt someone and is a serious issue that getting wrong can have a devistating effect. It's not like a training error that the dancing doggy fluffed a cue bad luck sort of thing, if it fluffs an aggression based situation, it could nail someone or worse Aggression IMHO has a fine tolerance that you can't afford to get it wrong or fail to address it in the seriousness that it deserves;)

There are different ways to address these things, but that's basically the way I have had good success and I am sure I could streamline my approach for better results again???

Fiona

Edited September 18, 2010 by malsrock