Please Help With Gsd Aggression.

[Quickasyoucan]

Or does it actually reflect your split personality

Actually I thought you were since you never contradicted or took issue with anything one of your alter egos said

My split personalities must be remarkably consistent!

If it wasn't such a long drive I would be using Aidan2 to back up things Aidan said and vice-versa, "Yeah, awesome post Aidan2, you really hit the nail on the head!" "Thanks Aidan, I think your posts are brilliant too!"

Yeah great idea except you let yourself down with not coming up with a different name for your second alter ego

I am going to call mine Slowasyoucan

[lovemesideways]

Or does it actually reflect your split personality

Actually I thought you were since you never contradicted or took issue with anything one of your alter egos said

My split personalities must be remarkably consistent!

If it wasn't such a long drive I would be using Aidan2 to back up things Aidan said and vice-versa, "Yeah, awesome post Aidan2, you really hit the nail on the head!" "Thanks Aidan, I think your posts are brilliant too!"

OT here, but just makes me think of B1 and B2 from bananas and pajamas

[lovemesideways]

Geez, if only I could find GSD's like yours today, unfortunately GSD's of the level of perfection you have described are rather thin on the ground now. I assume they were also protection trained to complete the total package???

No they where not, because not all GSDs are made for that kind of thing

I agree, they don't all turn out with the required traits for protection work, but they are supposed to if the dog complies with the breed standards in one way or another.

Crap I better return both my labradors then! Neither of them retrieve!!

Oh wait, thats because they aren't from working dog lines, they're from guide dog lines.

Just like my GSDs weren't from working dog lines, they where from show dog lines. Bred to be family pets and show dogs.

No, that's not quite right, show dogs are supposed to be Schutzhund titled when bred by the book which is a working test to determine the correct traits.

The difference is, though they may have had the potential for protection work, that is not what they where bred for, or purchased for. They never showed any sort of aggressive traits because they where fantastic dogs that where placed in the perfect home

What exactly is the point you're trying to make? Other than adding the GSD to the BSL by constantly telling people they are supposed to be aggressive and its "the norm"? Heck Pitbulls are the least human aggressive dog around and they're on there, keep it up and I'm sure you new goal will be reached!

[MonElite]

Aidan its against forum rules to have two ids. You might get banned all together if you continue having two.

[Red Fox]

I think saying that someone can't train a GSD without physical correction shows your ignorance. Same as believing that because the GSD are used as working dogs means that EVERY GSD could be a working dog is ridiculous.

I think that you're missing the point.

Anyhoo I don't see what you're all arguing about. Training is horses for courses, what suits one dog wont suit another so technically you're all wrong AND right. Let it go *sigh*

I agree. Some people here just need to get over it and move on..

Edited September 22, 2010 by SecretKei

[kamuzz]

Aidan its against forum rules to have two ids. You might get banned all together if you continue having two.

Thought it was ok provided you asked Troy and had a good reason and made it very obvious you were the same person under both IDs?

[Quickasyoucan]

Aidan its against forum rules to have two ids. You might get banned all together if you continue having two.

Oh I didn't mention it to get anyone into trouble , was just curious as to whether it was the same person, since the post seemed the same.

[SpecTraining]

Geez, if only I could find GSD's like yours today, unfortunately GSD's of the level of perfection you have described are rather thin on the ground now. I assume they were also protection trained to complete the total package???

No they where not, because not all GSDs are made for that kind of thing

I agree, they don't all turn out with the required traits for protection work, but they are supposed to if the dog complies with the breed standards in one way or another.

Crap I better return both my labradors then! Neither of them retrieve!!

Oh wait, thats because they aren't from working dog lines, they're from guide dog lines.

Just like my GSDs weren't from working dog lines, they where from show dog lines. Bred to be family pets and show dogs.

No, that's not quite right, show dogs are supposed to be Schutzhund titled when bred by the book which is a working test to determine the correct traits.

The difference is, though they may have had the potential for protection work, that is not what they where bred for, or purchased for. They never showed any sort of aggressive traits because they where fantastic dogs that where placed in the perfect home

What exactly is the point you're trying to make? Other than adding the GSD to the BSL by constantly telling people they are supposed to be aggressive and its "the norm"? Heck Pitbulls are the least human aggressive dog around and they're on there, keep it up and I'm sure you new goal will be reached!

It doesn't matter what they were bred and purchased for, if they are GSD's they will have "some" working traits at "some" level is the point I am making. If they have working traits prey drive perhaps, chase and catch with a hard bite, or reactive sharpness etc that is not an ideal trait for a pet when allowed to escalate in the wrong directions, there becomes a behaviour issue and handling problem with the dog and occurs more with first time GSD owners or first time dog owners who purchase GSD's.

BSL and dangerous dog laws is the reason why GSD traits are often hidden and not discussed which doesn't help the first time owner when having no idea what they may be in for, what to watch for as puppies and what behaviour to eliminate as they are growing up. A puppy game of latching on to the kids pants leg can escalate quickly to chasing a stranger in the park and latching on to their pants leg, then you have a dangerous dog report caused by incorrect upbringing of a working trait dog for example. The "norm" or common misbehaviour in GSD's occurs more frequently with inexperienced owners especially aggressive traits surfacing I have found. I am sure the same puppy raised in a experienced home would not demonstrate aggressive behaviour at all for the most part. There are certain behaviours that you can't afford to allow an escalation of in working breeds to mould them into a reliable pet is what I am saying.

Edited September 22, 2010 by SpecTraining

[aussielover]

Wouldn't most puppies latch on to a leg in play? i know my lab puppy did, also my aussie puppy would nip and try to herd us.

Isn't it obvious this sort of behaviour should be discouraged???

Wouldn't you try to stop any breed of dog from doing that type of thing?

[Diva]

There are certain behaviours that you can't afford to allow an escalation of in working breeds to mould them into a reliable pet is what I am saying.

I agree with that.

But I could just as easily replace 'working breeds' with 'terrier breeds' or 'sighthound breeds' or 'herding breeds' (which are real working dogs to me) and probably many others, and it would still be true.

[MonElite]

BSL and dangerous dog laws is the reason why GSD traits are often hidden and not discussed which doesn't help the first time owner when having no idea what they may be in for

I dissagree with this statment. They are talked about A LOT. Id say second to pitbulls.

Especailly show v's working lines debates, or about their structure, and often about hips and other hereditary stuff.

[poodlefan]

When ultimate reliability is required in a working dog, very few if any are trained on halti's, harnessess without ever experiencing a physical correction.

We aren't talking about a working dog.

We are talking about pet dog. A pet dog with aggression issues that no one giving advice on this forum had seen. And most of us had to good sense to tailor advice in the direction of muzzles, separation from other dogs and consulting a professional for help.

Most, but not the "GSD expert" who knew what had to be done based solely on the dogs breed.

That's when I posted asking the "GSD expert" not give advice based on assumptions about dogs and handlers and it went from there. My credentials were questioned, the GSD cavalry arrived and poor Rock Dog got a sore brain.

A good dog trainer gathers information about the dog, its behaviour and its owner before coming up with a method. It doesn't matter if you're training GSDs or poodles, using check chains or clickers, no one with any sense of responsibility gives advice that's potentially dangerous. And all but one person in this thread appeared to acknowledge that.

Edited September 22, 2010 by poodlefan

[m-j]

Spec training:A predictable dog, I prefer to use distance where they don't lunge and build their confidence to lessen the distance as you go and the dog learns how to handle the stress of a once reactive target. Throwing a dog in the deep end to purposely lunge to perform an air block is not what I would consider effective training, no.

Just wondering, why would you use this only on a predictable dog? If you know the target that makes the dog react and you know what your dog looks like when calm as opposed to a very subtle change when loading up, couldn't you do this with an unpredictable dog? Unpredictable being a dog that sometimes does and sometimes doesn't as opposed to one that has learned not to give a warning. Having said this I have never seen/handled a dog that hasn't at least had soft eyes go hard before reacting, even though it was done in what seemed like a nanosecond.

cheers

M-J

[SpecTraining]

BSL and dangerous dog laws is the reason why GSD traits are often hidden and not discussed which doesn't help the first time owner when having no idea what they may be in for

I dissagree with this statment. They are talked about A LOT. Id say second to pitbulls.

Especailly show v's working lines debates, or about their structure, and often about hips and other hereditary stuff.

I have found in the pet market many people who purchase a GSD for a pet expect a typical Golden Retriever type personality and disposition and are quite distressed when their dog doesn't act as a social butterfly and love everyone. When these people often ask around and question why their GSD is aloof and unfriendly to strangers for example, they are often misled that the behaviour is unheard of in a pet quality or showline GSD which is untrue. What I am saying is, aloofness, unfriendliness and aggressive traits are often watered down to give a softer impression of the GSD temperament.

[SpecTraining]

'SpecTraining' post='4828307' date='21st Sep 2010 - 10:23 PM']When ultimate reliability is required in a working dog, very few if any are trained on halti's, harnessess without ever experiencing a physical correction.

[/b]We aren't talking about a working dog.

We are talking about pet dog. A pet dog with aggression issues that no one giving advice on this forum had seen. And most of us had to good sense to tailor advice in the direction of muzzles, separation from other dogs and consulting a professional for help.

Most, but not the "GSD expert" who knew what had to be done based solely on the dogs breed.

That's when I posted asking the "GSD expert" not give advice based on assumptions about dogs and handlers and it went from there. My credentials were questioned, the GSD cavalry arrived and poor Rock Dog got a sore brain.

A good dog trainer gathers information about the dog, its behaviour and its owner before coming up with a method. It doesn't matter if you're training GSDs or poodles, using check chains or clickers, no one with any sense of responsibility gives advice that's potentially dangerous. And all but one person in this thread appeared to acknowledge that.

Can I ask what your post has to do with a response highlighting halti and harness reliability???. You won't get an argument from me supporting advanced training techniques recommended to inexperienced handlers on a pet forum. My first post on this topic mentioned that Poodlefan, what is your point :rolleyes:

Edited September 22, 2010 by SpecTraining

[SpecTraining]

Spec training:A predictable dog, I prefer to use distance where they don't lunge and build their confidence to lessen the distance as you go and the dog learns how to handle the stress of a once reactive target. Throwing a dog in the deep end to purposely lunge to perform an air block is not what I would consider effective training, no.

Just wondering, why would you use this only on a predictable dog? If you know the target that makes the dog react and you know what your dog looks like when calm as opposed to a very subtle change when loading up, couldn't you do this with an unpredictable dog? Unpredictable being a dog that sometimes does and sometimes doesn't as opposed to one that has learned not to give a warning. Having said this I have never seen/handled a dog that hasn't at least had soft eyes go hard before reacting, even though it was done in what seemed like a nanosecond.

cheers

M-J

I was thinking unpredictable as a dog that shows intermittant reaction to a similar stimulus. A dog that is fine most of the time then flies off the handle out of the blue. Predictable I was thinking predictably reactive, flies off at every dog every time it see's one. Hope this makes more sense :rolleyes:

[poodlefan]

Can I ask what your post has to do with a response highlighting halti and harness reliability???. You won't get an argument from me supporting advanced training techniques recommended to inexperienced handlers on a pet forum. My first post on this topic mentioned that Poodlefan, what is your point :rolleyes:

My point, I suppose was to question the usefulness of discussing training a working dog in a thread started by a pet owner to discuss dog aggression. All GSDs are not working dogs and nor are all of them suitable to be. I wonder if this had been a Labrador, if the subject of working dog training would even have come up.

The issue of producing reliability in a working dog is irrelevent to the issues raised here. The comparison simply doesn't fly IMO. This dog is not a working dog and more to the point, it doesn't have a working dog handler.

Edited September 22, 2010 by poodlefan

[SpecTraining]

Can I ask what your post has to do with a response highlighting halti and harness reliability???. You won't get an argument from me supporting advanced training techniques recommended to inexperienced handlers on a pet forum. My first post on this topic mentioned that Poodlefan, what is your point :rolleyes:

My point, I suppose was to question the usefulness of discussing training a working dog in a thread started by a pet owner to discuss dog aggression. All GSDs are not working dogs and nor are all of them suitable to be. I wonder if this had been a Labrador, if the subject of working dog training would even have come up.

The issue of producing reliability in a working dog is irrelevent to the issues raised here. The comparison simply doesn't fly IMO. This dog is not a working dog and more to the point, it doesn't have a working dog handler.

A GSD is a working dog (breed) regardless of living in a pet or working home. If particular methods of training produce the best reliability in a working role where reliability is crucial, the same methods applied to a pet will produce the same reliability which is very relevent to this thread as reliable pets are fantastic and and a joy to live with, don't you think???

Why have a half reliable dog when you can have really reliable dog is my point???

Edited September 22, 2010 by SpecTraining

[huski]

A GSD is a working dog (breed) regardless of living in a pet or working home. If particular methods of training produce the best reliability in a working role where reliability is crucial, the same methods applied to a pet will produce the same reliability which is very relevent to this thread as reliable pets are fantastic and and a joy to live with, don't you think???

Why have a half reliable dog when you can have really reliable dog is my point???

But training is NOT breed specific. It is temperament and drive specific. Even within a breed, you will get variance, you will get low drive examples and higher drive examples. You will get dogs with softer nerves and some with stronger nerves. Even within a breed you can't possibly handle all of the dogs the same way. There are also a million and one ways to train a dog. There's not just one magical method that will get a reliable dog.

Edited September 22, 2010 by huski

[poodlefan]

A GSD is a working dog (breed) regardless of living in a pet or working home. If particular methods of training produce the best reliability in a working role where reliability is crucial, the same methods applied to a pet will produce the same reliability which is very relevent to this thread as reliable pets are fantastic and and a joy to live with, don't you think???

Why have a half reliable dog when you can have really reliable dog is my point???

And my point is there are plenty of GSDs who aren't cut out to 'work' owned by people who'd never be able to 'work' them.

So advocating that the same methods be used isn't particularly helpful for a 5'1'' pet dog owner with chronic back pain, nor for a lot of other folk. She doesn't need her pet to be as 'reliable' as a working dog. She needs a dog she can walk safely without endangering other dogs or people.

You've already provided an excellent description of how desenstisation can be sometimes be used to produce the same result as stringing up. For THIS dog owner which do you think is the more viable option?

Lets not forget that under most state law any trained 'working' or security dog automatically attracts a dangerous dog designation along with all the restrictions that applies. That's a tag most pet dog owners actively aim to AVOID.

Edited September 22, 2010 by poodlefan